US Aid to Israel or Not?

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502622
1) 90% of the "Palestinians" are from Jordan and Syria. They were driven out by their ever so caring Muslim brothers. 2) According to Babylonian and Roman writings(not to mention the Bible), the Israelites have been there since before the bronze era. 3) And you think we should give one damn for the folks who danced in the street when we were attacked on 9/11?
1) Not sure what that has to do with anything.
2) As have the Caananites. Still failing to grasp the relevance.
3) Of course. We're supposed to turn the other cheek, no?

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502623
Gaza and the West Bank have be GIVEN to the Palestinians.
By whom?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502613
Well the "right to exist" goes both ways. Israel is basically not allowing Palestine as a nation the right to exist either. Its a vicious cycle over there, and how does that exactly benefit us? Why not just survival of the fittest instead of us throwing aid out to pay for friendships?
Israel would love to play the survival of the fittest game at this point. Level the west bank and Gaza and drop a nuke on Iran to keep the other countries from jumping froggy. Unfortunately survival of the fittest would would mean several million casualties.

 

[reefraff]

As long as the Palestinians refuse to acknowledge Israels right to exist they will never have a peaceful solution. In 2000 Arafat walked away from a good deal. He didn't want a solution.

 

[mantisman51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502624
1) Not sure what that has to do with anything.
2) As have the Caananites. Still failing to grasp the relevance.
3) Of course. We're supposed to turn the other cheek, no?
1&2) Palestinians are ethnic Arabs, not Cananites. So, THEY are the invaders.
3) HELL NO!

 

[darthtang aw]

By whom?
Israel withdrew from gaza and the West Bank giving the land and area to the Palestinians.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502632
1&2) Palestinians are ethnic Arabs, not Cananites. So, THEY are the invaders.
3) HELL NO!
Beg to differ. All of the ethnic (and linguistic) divisions in the region are Semitic - Canaanites included. The people being, as are we all, inter-related. The distinguishing factor is religious, not ethnic. (Not that one is a preferential bigotry over the other.)
By favoring belief systems over people, we clearly demonstrate our inhumanity, i.e. what someone believes becomes not only more important than who they are, but that it is also possible to place individuals in a category based simply on their professed faith.
Seriously?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502635
Beg to differ. All of the ethnic (and linguistic) divisions in the region are Semitic - Canaanites included. The people being, as are we all, inter-related. The distinguishing factor is religious, not ethnic. (Not that one is a preferential bigotry over the other.)
By favoring belief systems over people, we clearly demonstrate our inhumanity, i.e. what someone believes becomes not only more important than who they are, but that it is also possible to place individuals in a category based simply on their professed faith.
Seriously?
I used to work with a Palestinian. If you wanted to Pzz him off call him an Arab LOL! His family was from Lebanon and made a pretty big deal over the fact there were not ethnic arabs.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502613
Well the "right to exist" goes both ways. Israel is basically not allowing Palestine as a nation the right to exist either. Its a vicious cycle over there, and how does that exactly benefit us? Why not just survival of the fittest instead of us throwing aid out to pay for friendships?
Israel would love to play the survival of the fittest game at this point. Level the west bank and Gaza and drop a nuke on Iran to keep the other countries from jumping froggy. Unfortunately survival of the fittest would would mean several million casualties.
And the reason that Israel is capable of doing that is because of all the aid provided to it by the USA.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502634
Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/30#post_3502625
By whom?
Israel withdrew from gaza and the West Bank giving the land and area to the Palestinians.
The land was actually given to both the Jewish people and the Palestinians by Britain/UN. The way that was handled was a big mistake in and of itself. All one needs to do is look at a map and the geo-political boundaries to see the impossibility of peace in this region. No country on the planet has the wacked boundaries that Israel and the Palestinians do. Add to this that they are ancient enemies and you get what you have today.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502645
And the reason that Israel is capable of doing that is because of all the aid provided to it by the USA.
Yeah and without that aid the Arab nations' dream of exterminating the Jews would have come true. I don't think we really should provide economic aid to Israel anymore but need to make it clear we got their backs if war breaks out.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502647
The land was actually given to both the Jewish people and the Palestinians by Britain/UN. The way that was handled was a big mistake in and of itself. All one needs to do is look at a map and the geo-political boundaries to see the impossibility of peace in this region. No country on the planet has the wacked boundaries that Israel and the Palestinians do. Add to this that they are ancient enemies and you get what you have today.
Precisely.

 

[uneverno]

So, today's decision to build housing units in occupied Palestinian territory. Act of aggression? Retaliation for the UN decision?
Petulant children.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502703
So, today's decision to build housing units in occupied Palestinian territory. Act of aggression? Retaliation for the UN decision?
Petulant children.
Pretty much. And more rockets will be lobbed into Israel neighborhoods in response. And so it goes on......

 

[beth]

With the UN decision, Palestinians now have international access to levy war crime allegations against Israel.
The US, Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama opposed the UN recognition. How embarrassing for us.
This has been going on since 1967 with Israel and the US calling the shots. It hasn't worked.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502708
With the UN decision, Palestinians now have international access to levy war crime allegations against Israel.
The US, Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama opposed the UN recognition. How embarrassing for us.
This has been going on since 1967 with Israel and the US calling the shots. It hasn't worked.
LOL! The Palestinians fire rockets into residential areas and you talk about them levying war crime allegations against Israel?

 

[beth]

If you think I just made that up, then look again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/world/middleeast/new-un-status-for-palestinians-could-open-door-for-claims-of-israeli-war-crimes.html

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502715
If you think I just made that up, then look again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/world/middleeast/new-un-status-for-palestinians-could-open-door-for-claims-of-israeli-war-crimes.html
I didn't think you made anything up. The notion that the country that has engaged in numerous terrorist acts against Israel would lodge war crimes complaints against their victims is laughable.

 

[beth]

To be honest, I think both Israel and the Palestinians have committed atrocities. The conflict has been going on for 100 years, so there is no way that people that abhor each other are not going to commit heinous acts as a result. The internet is full of incidents on both sides. The problem though is that one side is overwhelmingly more powerful then the other.
Why do Israelis insist on building settlements on confiscated land if not to provoke Palestinians and drag the conflict on? They know very well that this is the most provocative thing they can do to the Palestinians. If they are so worried about rockets flying into Israel, then why do this? This land was given to both the Jews and the Palestinians and the West has contributed greatly to the ongoing conflict.
But because the Palestinians are obviously the much weaker, at this point in history, they are now considered by most (including our closest allies) the oppressed underdog. With the USA biasly favoring Israel in all matters, this conflict has dragged on for decades with the same old status quo of nothing ever happening because of that bias. A mediator is not supposed to overwhelmingly favor one side if the goal is to resolve a conflict between opposing sides. The UN has historically kowtowed to the USA in this matter, until now. Perhaps things will move along in this process after this. Perhaps US threats to defund the UN will create another crisis. The two sides are not on an equal par and that part is somewhat unfair. And the world leaders have now acknowledged that.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502738
To be honest, I think both Israel and the Palestinians have committed atrocities. The conflict has been going on for 100 years, so there is no way that people that abhor each other are not going to commit heinous acts as a result. The internet is full of incidents on both sides. The problem though is that one side is overwhelmingly more powerful then the other.
Why do Israelis insist on building settlements on confiscated land if not to provoke Palestinians and drag the conflict on? They know very well that this is the most provocative thing they can do to the Palestinians. If they are so worried about rockets flying into Israel, then why do this? This land was given to both the Jews and the Palestinians and the West has contributed greatly to the ongoing conflict.
But because the Palestinians are obviously the much weaker, at this point in history, they are now considered by most (including our closest allies) the oppressed underdog. With the USA biasly favoring Israel in all matters, this conflict has dragged on for decades with the same old status quo of nothing ever happening because of that bias. A mediator is not supposed to overwhelmingly favor one side if the goal is to resolve a conflict between opposing sides. The UN has historically kowtowed to the USA in this matter, until now. Perhaps things will move along in this process after this. Perhaps US threats to defund the UN will create another crisis. The two sides are not on an equal par and that part is somewhat unfair. And the world leaders have now acknowledged that.
Did you see the deal Clinton helped negotiate for them? That was a pretty good deal. You gotta remember when Israel was created there was a state for the Palestinians as well and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel. The problem is with Egypt, Syria and Jordan. They are going to have to all 3 officially acknowledge Israels right to exist before any lasting solution can be worked out. Israel is going to hold the lands they need to keep a strategic advantage until they are assured they wont be attacked again. Until then it will be the same ol crap.