US Navy Directive 16134
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veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I was not planning on responding anymore but I figure I should try to clear up a misunderstanding. I am NOT arguing War or the wat it is waged, in a nutshell or out of a nutshell. I am saying that there are two seperate things, there is war, which I choose to not discuss, and there are stupid people who do not know how to behave and hurt themselves, their co-workers, and their country as a whole. I know of no war that is waged by wearing offensive t-shirts so I do not understand how you can claim that I am arguing about war and the way it is waged.
And sure, I'm a crybaby left winger, but I am in no way a democrat.
Thats whats great about this country,we can agree to disagree. Personally i think if this directive is authentic it is ridiculous. I think ive made that clear.But im wondering if you would think a shirt that had a picture of Saddam getting his neck stretched is as offensive as ANY shirt that has anything religious on it.
You have made it clear that you think insulting one religion is wrong yet you don't believe in any Religion.Maybe you just find religion offensive. I'm also curious why you are offended when called a Democrat but not a "Bigot and Racicst" in the broad statement made about the military?
I was not planning on responding anymore but I figure I should try to clear up a misunderstanding. I am NOT arguing War or the wat it is waged, in a nutshell or out of a nutshell. I am saying that there are two seperate things, there is war, which I choose to not discuss, and there are stupid people who do not know how to behave and hurt themselves, their co-workers, and their country as a whole. I know of no war that is waged by wearing offensive t-shirts so I do not understand how you can claim that I am arguing about war and the way it is waged.
And sure, I'm a crybaby left winger, but I am in no way a democrat.
Thats whats great about this country,we can agree to disagree. Personally i think if this directive is authentic it is ridiculous. I think ive made that clear.But im wondering if you would think a shirt that had a picture of Saddam getting his neck stretched is as offensive as ANY shirt that has anything religious on it.
You have made it clear that you think insulting one religion is wrong yet you don't believe in any Religion.Maybe you just find religion offensive. I'm also curious why you are offended when called a Democrat but not a "Bigot and Racicst" in the broad statement made about the military?
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
Thats whats great about this country,we can agree to disagree. Personally i think if this directive is authentic it is ridiculous. I think ive made that clear.But im wondering if you would think a shirt that had a picture of Saddam getting his neck stretched is as offensive as ANY shirt that has anything religious on it.
You have made it clear that you think insulting one religion is wrong yet you don't believe in any Religion.Maybe you just find religion offensive. I'm also curious why you are offended when called a Democrat but not a "Bigot and Racicst" in the broad statement made about the military?
Do you not read what I write? I have never said someone shouldn't wear a shirt because it is offensive. I said that it is counterproductive to go out of ones way to insult a group of people, while stationed in another country when serving as a representative of the US. This is not about what is polite or what is rude, it is about common sense. Unfortunately many people, military or not, lack the common sense to realize that their actions have consequences and when that happens rules are made.
I would have to say the 'directive' is a hoax because it makes way to much sense for a Navy directive. But in the end the concept of not going out of ones way to fuel the hate against ones own country can be discussed regardless of the validity of this e-mail.
Thats whats great about this country,we can agree to disagree. Personally i think if this directive is authentic it is ridiculous. I think ive made that clear.But im wondering if you would think a shirt that had a picture of Saddam getting his neck stretched is as offensive as ANY shirt that has anything religious on it.
You have made it clear that you think insulting one religion is wrong yet you don't believe in any Religion.Maybe you just find religion offensive. I'm also curious why you are offended when called a Democrat but not a "Bigot and Racicst" in the broad statement made about the military?
Do you not read what I write? I have never said someone shouldn't wear a shirt because it is offensive. I said that it is counterproductive to go out of ones way to insult a group of people, while stationed in another country when serving as a representative of the US. This is not about what is polite or what is rude, it is about common sense. Unfortunately many people, military or not, lack the common sense to realize that their actions have consequences and when that happens rules are made.
I would have to say the 'directive' is a hoax because it makes way to much sense for a Navy directive. But in the end the concept of not going out of ones way to fuel the hate against ones own country can be discussed regardless of the validity of this e-mail.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Ive read what you have written ,and i dont agree.Is that wrong?
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
jmick
Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
Ive read what you have written ,and i dont agree.Is that wrong?
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
Ive read what you have written ,and i dont agree.Is that wrong?
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
darknes
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
Exactly. Terrorists use their religion to try recruiting others, but the Muslim faith condones terroristic acts; they are extremists.
The whole point of us being in Iraq is to help build a country that protect itself and will cooperate with the western nations. We don't want to piss off all the civilians in Iraq; that would be counter-productive to what we're trying to accomplish.
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
Exactly. Terrorists use their religion to try recruiting others, but the Muslim faith condones terroristic acts; they are extremists.
The whole point of us being in Iraq is to help build a country that protect itself and will cooperate with the western nations. We don't want to piss off all the civilians in Iraq; that would be counter-productive to what we're trying to accomplish.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
Its not about religion?
And you call me a fool?
I can give a rats ass about Ireland ,has nothing to do with whats going on today.
This war on terrorism has nothing to do with economics and it has everything to do with Religon to think differently would make you a complete idiot.
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little.
Take a look at Ireland, everyone thinks it was about religion but it was about money. Once their economy picked up and there was more opportunity for everyone to capitalize on it many of the tensions eased and because life is now easier the need to bomb and kill has ended.
Its not about religion?
And you call me a fool?
I can give a rats ass about Ireland ,has nothing to do with whats going on today.
This war on terrorism has nothing to do with economics and it has everything to do with Religon to think differently would make you a complete idiot.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Of everything I have ever posted on this forum this is one thread I didn't think would start a debate...
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Do any of these words or phrases ring a bell?
"jihad" (holy war) by alleged “mujahideen” and "jihadis" (self-anointed holy warriors) and supposed "shahiddin" (martyrs) destined for Paradise as a proper reward for killing all of us accused "kuffr" (infidels).
"jihad" (holy war) by alleged “mujahideen” and "jihadis" (self-anointed holy warriors) and supposed "shahiddin" (martyrs) destined for Paradise as a proper reward for killing all of us accused "kuffr" (infidels).
jmick
Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
Do any of these words or phrases ring a bell?
"jihad" (holy war) by alleged “mujahideen” and "jihadis" (self-anointed holy warriors) and supposed "shahiddin" (martyrs) destined for Paradise as a proper reward for killing all of us accused "kuffr" (infidels).
I can assure with you 100% confidence that we would not hear these terms being thrown around if these countries had strong economies and the masses were content. I gave you one example but you decided it wasn't relavent. I think you feel so strongly about it because you are probably a devote christain and feel some sort of hatred towards them because of their beliefs. It doesn't really matter, you can believe what ever you want to but if you get a chance maybe you should do some research on the role poverty, limited opportunities and ineqaulity play when it comes to terrorism.
Do any of these words or phrases ring a bell?
"jihad" (holy war) by alleged “mujahideen” and "jihadis" (self-anointed holy warriors) and supposed "shahiddin" (martyrs) destined for Paradise as a proper reward for killing all of us accused "kuffr" (infidels).
I can assure with you 100% confidence that we would not hear these terms being thrown around if these countries had strong economies and the masses were content. I gave you one example but you decided it wasn't relavent. I think you feel so strongly about it because you are probably a devote christain and feel some sort of hatred towards them because of their beliefs. It doesn't really matter, you can believe what ever you want to but if you get a chance maybe you should do some research on the role poverty, limited opportunities and ineqaulity play when it comes to terrorism.
crimzy
Active Member
This is the silliest debate I've ever seen. Veni, you are arguing vehemently that it is WRONG for our soldiers to be prevented from wearing racist messages on their t-shirts. This is the cause that you feel you need to speak out on??? I mean, come on... we all know you are a staunch conservative but is it really so harmful to avoid wearing a racist message while fighting and killing people in a foreign nation? How can you possibly think this is appropriate, much less a cause worth arguing about? I don't even think the soldiers would agree with you here. Why don't you just argue that it should be ok for our soldiers to r-a-p-e Iraqi women or steal from Iraqi homes? You seem to think that they are all the enemy so this should be ok, right? If they are all the enemy, lets just destroy every man, woman and child in the area.
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
Ive read what you have written ,and i dont agree.Is that wrong?
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
War? This topic is not about war. This topic is about a US Navy directive, one which is probably not even real. From my experience this would be the least ridiculous Navy directive concerning unauthorized civilian clothes that I have ever seen. Sure it is stupid, it is stupid that people need to have common sense spelled out to them.
Please understand that this directive is not about Iraq, or what out troops are wearing under their flak jackets. It is about conduct of military personel on liberty in foreign countries. There is a certain level of behavior that is expected of servicemen and women so it does not bring discredit to the US.
Ive read what you have written ,and i dont agree.Is that wrong?
It is a war about religion. It is now,as it was before.History repeating itself. Apparently we havent learned a damn thing. So what are we left to do about it? Try to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world? We tried that way before ,it doesn't work. 1 or 10 or 100 men or women wearing a stupid shirt isn't going to swing the tide of this war one way or the other.The directive if true is stupid and so is the idea of having sensitivity training for men and women trained to kill.
War? This topic is not about war. This topic is about a US Navy directive, one which is probably not even real. From my experience this would be the least ridiculous Navy directive concerning unauthorized civilian clothes that I have ever seen. Sure it is stupid, it is stupid that people need to have common sense spelled out to them.
Please understand that this directive is not about Iraq, or what out troops are wearing under their flak jackets. It is about conduct of military personel on liberty in foreign countries. There is a certain level of behavior that is expected of servicemen and women so it does not bring discredit to the US.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
I can assure with you 100% confidence that we would not hear these terms being thrown around if these countries had strong economies and the masses were content. I gave you one example but you decided it wasn't relavent. I think you feel so strongly about it because you are probably a devote christain and feel some sort of hatred towards them because of their beliefs. It doesn't really matter, you can believe what ever you want to but if you get a chance maybe you should do some research on the role poverty, limited opportunities and ineqaulity play when it comes to terrorism.
Your assumtions about me are amazingly incorrect.And if you must know i have no hatred twards any religion for their beliefs.
BTW those poor arab people have no money or oil. I can see why the want Jihad.
Let me make a assumption of my own.You conveniently pop in here and start with your anti religious views because you dont like religion. That is your view and you entitled to it.But keep it in the evolution tread.Another assumption is your anti anything that has religion attached to it so you try and dismiss it as garbage.
Here it is again "This war is all about Religion" if you don't like it sorry.If it offends you ,I'm sorry to hear it.Hopefully you will get over it.
I can assure with you 100% confidence that we would not hear these terms being thrown around if these countries had strong economies and the masses were content. I gave you one example but you decided it wasn't relavent. I think you feel so strongly about it because you are probably a devote christain and feel some sort of hatred towards them because of their beliefs. It doesn't really matter, you can believe what ever you want to but if you get a chance maybe you should do some research on the role poverty, limited opportunities and ineqaulity play when it comes to terrorism.
Your assumtions about me are amazingly incorrect.And if you must know i have no hatred twards any religion for their beliefs.
BTW those poor arab people have no money or oil. I can see why the want Jihad.
Let me make a assumption of my own.You conveniently pop in here and start with your anti religious views because you dont like religion. That is your view and you entitled to it.But keep it in the evolution tread.Another assumption is your anti anything that has religion attached to it so you try and dismiss it as garbage.
Here it is again "This war is all about Religion" if you don't like it sorry.If it offends you ,I'm sorry to hear it.Hopefully you will get over it.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
BTW Those poor arabs have no money or oil ,so that why the are waging a HOLY WAR.Im glad you cleared that up.
darthtang aw
Active Member
No, The war is about misbelief.....not religion. It is about perceived persecution...Religion is just the false tool used to promote the "Jihad". And I am sorry, Iraq war started out as having nothng to do with religion or "jihad".
Terrorism is fueled by fear in the supporters and in the victims. Fear is caused by loss or the possibility of loss. Fear is also caused by envy.....which creates the terrorists.
To expand on Jmick's point. Give a Person a job, his freedom of speech and choice, a family, and a stable environment....then ask him to stab a bomb on himself and attack the people that have "caused" his misfortune and see the reaction you get.
Take another individual, no property of value, barely finding food to feed his family, Kids and family dying from disease and or killed in persecution, no rights in society or say so in his lot in life, and ask him to attack those "responsible" and become a martyr for his "people". and see what reaction you get there.
Bottomline, the more someone has the less likely they will be fooled into a "terroristic ideology".
I will grant, religion plays it's part in the reasoning, however almost 80% of the muslim population in the world is non-violent...so it isn't a religious war...otherwise we would be fighting in India as well. While the khoran does preach certain things on killing infidels and jews, the greater society of people understand the moral incorrectness of this.
Terrorism is fueled by fear in the supporters and in the victims. Fear is caused by loss or the possibility of loss. Fear is also caused by envy.....which creates the terrorists.
To expand on Jmick's point. Give a Person a job, his freedom of speech and choice, a family, and a stable environment....then ask him to stab a bomb on himself and attack the people that have "caused" his misfortune and see the reaction you get.
Take another individual, no property of value, barely finding food to feed his family, Kids and family dying from disease and or killed in persecution, no rights in society or say so in his lot in life, and ask him to attack those "responsible" and become a martyr for his "people". and see what reaction you get there.
Bottomline, the more someone has the less likely they will be fooled into a "terroristic ideology".
I will grant, religion plays it's part in the reasoning, however almost 80% of the muslim population in the world is non-violent...so it isn't a religious war...otherwise we would be fighting in India as well. While the khoran does preach certain things on killing infidels and jews, the greater society of people understand the moral incorrectness of this.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
This is the silliest debate I've ever seen. Veni, you are arguing vehemently that it is WRONG for our soldiers to be prevented from wearing racist messages on their t-shirts. This is the cause that you feel you need to speak out on??? I mean, come on... we all know you are a staunch conservative but is it really so harmful to avoid wearing a racist message while fighting and killing people in a foreign nation? How can you possibly think this is appropriate, much less a cause worth arguing about? I don't even think the soldiers would agree with you here. Why don't you just argue that it should be ok for our soldiers to r-a-p-e Iraqi women or steal from Iraqi homes? You seem to think that they are all the enemy so this should be ok, right? If they are all the enemy, lets just destroy every man, woman and child in the area.
I dont know if its the silliest.Maybe pointless.
If we are gonna talk silly though we can ask MJ the Greatest Wizard ever.He will know the truth.
This is the silliest debate I've ever seen. Veni, you are arguing vehemently that it is WRONG for our soldiers to be prevented from wearing racist messages on their t-shirts. This is the cause that you feel you need to speak out on??? I mean, come on... we all know you are a staunch conservative but is it really so harmful to avoid wearing a racist message while fighting and killing people in a foreign nation? How can you possibly think this is appropriate, much less a cause worth arguing about? I don't even think the soldiers would agree with you here. Why don't you just argue that it should be ok for our soldiers to r-a-p-e Iraqi women or steal from Iraqi homes? You seem to think that they are all the enemy so this should be ok, right? If they are all the enemy, lets just destroy every man, woman and child in the area.
I dont know if its the silliest.Maybe pointless.
If we are gonna talk silly though we can ask MJ the Greatest Wizard ever.He will know the truth.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little. ...
Bin Laden was filthy rich....
LMAO! It is not a war about religion and if you believe that you are foolish! It's about econmonics, terrorism always boils down to economics. If they were prosperous nations they would not engage in terrorist acts because they'd have to much to lose. They have nothing to lose because they have little. ...
Bin Laden was filthy rich....
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Bin Laden was filthy rich....
There are exception and with his money he has bought power, to keep that power he has created a terrorist organization....power corrupts....
Bin Laden was filthy rich....
There are exception and with his money he has bought power, to keep that power he has created a terrorist organization....power corrupts....
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
No, The war is about misbelief.....not religion. It is about perceived persecution...Religion is just the false tool used to promote the "Jihad". And I am sorry, Iraq war started out as having nothng to do with religion or "jihad".
Terrorism is fueled by fear in the supporters and in the victims. Fear is caused by loss or the possibility of loss. Fear is also caused by envy.....which creates the terrorists.
To expand on Jmick's point. Give a Person a job, his freedom of speech and choice, a family, and a stable environment....then ask him to stab a bomb on himself and attack the people that have "caused" his misfortune and see the reaction you get.
Take another individual, no property of value, barely finding food to feed his family, Kids and family dying from disease and or killed in persecution, no rights in society or say so in his lot in life, and ask him to attack those "responsible" and become a martyr for his "people". and see what reaction you get there.
Bottomline, the more someone has the less likely they will be fooled into a "terroristic ideology".
I will grant, religion plays it's part in the reasoning, however almost 80% of the muslim population in the world is non-violent...so it isn't a religious war...otherwise we would be fighting in India as well. While the khoran does preach certain things on killing infidels and jews, the greater society of people understand the moral incorrectness of this.
We aren't talking about Street Gangs if we were id give some credit to those statements.Journeyman made a great point about Bin Laden ,cant argue with that statement.
And as far as India is concerned i don't get what you are trying to say with that statement.They are predominantly Hindu not Muslim,
No, The war is about misbelief.....not religion. It is about perceived persecution...Religion is just the false tool used to promote the "Jihad". And I am sorry, Iraq war started out as having nothng to do with religion or "jihad".
Terrorism is fueled by fear in the supporters and in the victims. Fear is caused by loss or the possibility of loss. Fear is also caused by envy.....which creates the terrorists.
To expand on Jmick's point. Give a Person a job, his freedom of speech and choice, a family, and a stable environment....then ask him to stab a bomb on himself and attack the people that have "caused" his misfortune and see the reaction you get.
Take another individual, no property of value, barely finding food to feed his family, Kids and family dying from disease and or killed in persecution, no rights in society or say so in his lot in life, and ask him to attack those "responsible" and become a martyr for his "people". and see what reaction you get there.
Bottomline, the more someone has the less likely they will be fooled into a "terroristic ideology".
I will grant, religion plays it's part in the reasoning, however almost 80% of the muslim population in the world is non-violent...so it isn't a religious war...otherwise we would be fighting in India as well. While the khoran does preach certain things on killing infidels and jews, the greater society of people understand the moral incorrectness of this.
We aren't talking about Street Gangs if we were id give some credit to those statements.Journeyman made a great point about Bin Laden ,cant argue with that statement.
And as far as India is concerned i don't get what you are trying to say with that statement.They are predominantly Hindu not Muslim,