Water boarding---for or against?
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1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2510163
we are involved in a war, standards are gone....
Wow, you just jumped off the reservation, as far as I'm concerned.
We are the greatest Nation to ever exist on Earth. We absolutely cannot fight a war where "all standards are gone".
Do you really believe that? Would you be ok as an American if our soldiers acted like Al Qaeda fighters? Look at the media uproar when a video surfaced last week of an apparent US soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff. Why was there uproar? Simple; Because WE do not act like they do.
Sharkbait, I encourage you to do some reading regarding the suffering people in the Nazi death camps and Japansese prison camps during WW2. They fought war with no standards, and they were monsters.
http:///forum/post/2510163
we are involved in a war, standards are gone....
Wow, you just jumped off the reservation, as far as I'm concerned.
We are the greatest Nation to ever exist on Earth. We absolutely cannot fight a war where "all standards are gone".
Do you really believe that? Would you be ok as an American if our soldiers acted like Al Qaeda fighters? Look at the media uproar when a video surfaced last week of an apparent US soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff. Why was there uproar? Simple; Because WE do not act like they do.
Sharkbait, I encourage you to do some reading regarding the suffering people in the Nazi death camps and Japansese prison camps during WW2. They fought war with no standards, and they were monsters.
lovethesea
Active Member
the word.......Terrorist........when did we really start using this? It seems to be used very loosely now. Eco-terrorism, home grown terrorism, war on terrorism,anti terrorism, etc. Up until several years ago, I don't really remember it being used a lot. Airplane hijackings, kidnappings etc, terrorist was never used. It seems to be a general term for the boogey man. Like I said really early on in this post....the game HAS changed. Hijacking vs. blowing up...kidnapping vs. beheadings, protests vs. bomb filled vests.
We had our own ways of doing things in wars past. It had to be in exteme circumstances and very classified to bring on some strong arming. Now it seems that the knowledge is there (as far as tactics) and our troops are using them very loosely and some Commanders are turning their head in ingnorance.
We had our own ways of doing things in wars past. It had to be in exteme circumstances and very classified to bring on some strong arming. Now it seems that the knowledge is there (as far as tactics) and our troops are using them very loosely and some Commanders are turning their head in ingnorance.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Dear _____
It is with extreme sadness that I must inform you that your ____has been killed in the line of duty. As a solder in the armed forces of the United States of America _____ felt it was an honor and duty to serve their country.
Please take a measure of peace though in knowing that at no time was any method employed which some may feel was to extreme to gain intelligence that may have saved their lives.
Yours truly,
The anti water boarding association
It is with extreme sadness that I must inform you that your ____has been killed in the line of duty. As a solder in the armed forces of the United States of America _____ felt it was an honor and duty to serve their country.
Please take a measure of peace though in knowing that at no time was any method employed which some may feel was to extreme to gain intelligence that may have saved their lives.
Yours truly,
The anti water boarding association
sharkbait9
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2510357
Wow, you just jumped off the reservation, as far as I'm concerned.
We are the greatest Nation to ever exist on Earth. We absolutely cannot fight a war where "all standards are gone".
Do you really believe that? Would you be ok as an American if our soldiers acted like Al Qaeda fighters? Look at the media uproar when a video surfaced last week of an apparent US soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff. Why was there uproar? Simple; Because WE do not act like they do.
Sharkbait, I encourage you to do some reading regarding the suffering people in the Nazi death camps and Japansese prison camps during WW2. They fought war with no standards, and they were monsters.
We are not talking about country VS country or a country‘s ideologies. We are talking about a tribe of animals that have no self worth, morals or standards.
This is a war that can not be won thru hearts and minds.
To put in easy to understand terms, improvised explosives, gorilla war far, hiding in religious sanctuaries, hospitals, schools, hiding in houses that were just deemed safe by the military and threaten to behead the family if they did not comply in helping in the jihad.
Were not talking about a country that believes in their dictator or president. Were talking about a group of individuals that are using a religious book for war.
These animals that will stop at nothing to kill coalition forces, not maim, imprison, torture hold as POWs
They are not fighting by rules of engagement or under the Geneva convention. There are no battle lines this is a whole new war that will set the bar in conflict.
To sit behind a desk and spout off about morals and standards and what makes you sick, GUESS WHAT war is sick. No body ever said war was fun or a bed of roses. People die, soldiers die, civilians, innocent life’s are lost by both parties involved, it happens.
If you want to bring standards in war then fine, but when you start putting out policies of no loaded rifles on the base, or in camp, that’s asinine.
We still have standards in war, all the animals we caught and rounded up are feed clothed, given medical treatment and the right to still practice their religion.
The animal that just threw a round at a coalition solider and the soldier turns around and drops a round in that animals chest, now that soldier has to go and give that animal medical aid…. To only get blown up so that low life scum bag can die a martyr……. So there is your morals. Just a solider killed.
As to the solider throwing the dog…….. Yeah that was just uncalled for…. That has nothing to do with war, well it could. I’ll debate that later if need be. But it could have more to do with his upbringing, maybe his family never liked dogs, who knows, I’m sure you do.
I could not care one minute less about Nazi Germany. It over, let it go this war as nothing to do with Nazi Germany and the country that made millions suffer. The one thing Hitler did wrong was not listen to his generals.
Hitler had great war strategies, does that make me a Nazi now????????? Or believe in white supremacy????
Let me answer that for you, NO
I could not care less if they lopped off a few Al Qaeda heads, effects me…. None.
Again it’s war it ugly, uninviting and things happen in war that none of us like but because we are glutens and want to know what’s happening we have to see it and then when we do see the horror’s of war we cry it's violent.
http:///forum/post/2510357
Wow, you just jumped off the reservation, as far as I'm concerned.
We are the greatest Nation to ever exist on Earth. We absolutely cannot fight a war where "all standards are gone".
Do you really believe that? Would you be ok as an American if our soldiers acted like Al Qaeda fighters? Look at the media uproar when a video surfaced last week of an apparent US soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff. Why was there uproar? Simple; Because WE do not act like they do.
Sharkbait, I encourage you to do some reading regarding the suffering people in the Nazi death camps and Japansese prison camps during WW2. They fought war with no standards, and they were monsters.
We are not talking about country VS country or a country‘s ideologies. We are talking about a tribe of animals that have no self worth, morals or standards.
This is a war that can not be won thru hearts and minds.
To put in easy to understand terms, improvised explosives, gorilla war far, hiding in religious sanctuaries, hospitals, schools, hiding in houses that were just deemed safe by the military and threaten to behead the family if they did not comply in helping in the jihad.
Were not talking about a country that believes in their dictator or president. Were talking about a group of individuals that are using a religious book for war.
These animals that will stop at nothing to kill coalition forces, not maim, imprison, torture hold as POWs
They are not fighting by rules of engagement or under the Geneva convention. There are no battle lines this is a whole new war that will set the bar in conflict.
To sit behind a desk and spout off about morals and standards and what makes you sick, GUESS WHAT war is sick. No body ever said war was fun or a bed of roses. People die, soldiers die, civilians, innocent life’s are lost by both parties involved, it happens.
If you want to bring standards in war then fine, but when you start putting out policies of no loaded rifles on the base, or in camp, that’s asinine.
We still have standards in war, all the animals we caught and rounded up are feed clothed, given medical treatment and the right to still practice their religion.
The animal that just threw a round at a coalition solider and the soldier turns around and drops a round in that animals chest, now that soldier has to go and give that animal medical aid…. To only get blown up so that low life scum bag can die a martyr……. So there is your morals. Just a solider killed.
As to the solider throwing the dog…….. Yeah that was just uncalled for…. That has nothing to do with war, well it could. I’ll debate that later if need be. But it could have more to do with his upbringing, maybe his family never liked dogs, who knows, I’m sure you do.
I could not care one minute less about Nazi Germany. It over, let it go this war as nothing to do with Nazi Germany and the country that made millions suffer. The one thing Hitler did wrong was not listen to his generals.
Hitler had great war strategies, does that make me a Nazi now????????? Or believe in white supremacy????
Let me answer that for you, NO
I could not care less if they lopped off a few Al Qaeda heads, effects me…. None.
Again it’s war it ugly, uninviting and things happen in war that none of us like but because we are glutens and want to know what’s happening we have to see it and then when we do see the horror’s of war we cry it's violent.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2510163
we are involved in a war, standards are gone ....
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2510863
....We still have standards in war, all the animals we caught and rounded up are feed clothed, given medical treatment and the right to still practice their religion..
Your last post seems to be changing your argument. The first comment is the one where I was pointing out the evils done in past wars and how we absolutely must have standards....
http:///forum/post/2510163
we are involved in a war, standards are gone ....
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2510863
....We still have standards in war, all the animals we caught and rounded up are feed clothed, given medical treatment and the right to still practice their religion..
Your last post seems to be changing your argument. The first comment is the one where I was pointing out the evils done in past wars and how we absolutely must have standards....
florida joe
Well-Known Member
People there are no good guys in war. This is not some video game played in our living rooms. There is no start over if some one dies. At the end of war no one says, “Hay they lost but they fought a far fight” believe me there is no fare fighting in war you do what you have to. You use whatever mean are available to win because weather we like it or no the goal when you are at war is to win. Perhaps the real argument should be how do we stop starting wars and not trying to make them something they just are not. And they are not a game played by rules. If you think they are please just show me one.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
sorry if it seems I am flaming and I apologize but I have seen much to much of war
reefraff
Active Member
This is an enemy with whom there can be no negotiated settlement. They only understand brute force. However we do have to be careful that we don't alienate others who we need to join in the fight to exterminate these animals. Unfortunatly there are a lot of places in the Muslim world that aren't too sophisticated and they are easily swayed by pro muslim propaganda. Thats why we can't blow the hell out of mosques terrorists hide in to shoot at our guys. That is why the incident at Abu Gharib was so devistating. Sure, they cut the heads off of their prisioners of war and there isn't a huge outcry from the muslim world over it but spread pictures around of a woman soldier humiliating a Muslim prisoner and they go nuts. Yes it's an insane double standard but its one we have to deal with because we can not defeat muslim extremists without the help of rational members of that religion..
sharkbait9
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2510904
Your last post seems to be changing your argument. The first comment is the one where I was pointing out the evils done in past wars and how we absolutely must have standards....
Not really flip flopping or changing my argument, more or less pointing out that you want morals/standards. Part of that post was “here…. we still have the morals of decent society” examples “X,Y,Z even during war”
My argument is strictly based off the fact that previous post were stated as torture was morally wrong and every other bleeding heart do gooder and do no evil post.
Believe me when I say … I wish their was no need for torture and war. It’s a scary idea when you think about bringing a child into this world.
The fact still remains with life comes war. Every civilization has fought wars. Just because we walk upward and have opposable thumbs and can think freely, doesn’t mean that we don’t have a need to resort to medieval ways and to kill those who appose are beliefs. That’s life.
We as a changing society have this need, want or feel that everything in the world should be nice and lovely. In a perfect world….. Sure let its all me automatons and all look the same, feel the same, dress the same, eat the same and we can all live as one in a strawberry field for ever and be BFF.
In the real world …ah…. No not going to happen, your kids BFF will most likely despise your kid later in life for no good reason other then social status and or change. War will continue, NJ will always SUX and rob us blind.
So if at the end of the work week, if I can come home crack open a beer and watch my kids play in the yard with a dog and nice white picket fence and my wife can wear jeans and an shirt and not have to worry about getting stoned to death because some CIA operative torture some animal with water or a frozen knife……….ah …………. Good, why cause I can live the American dream and thank a solider for his actions and service at the local pub down the street.
People……. Wake up. The truth is ugly, war is ugly and guy that drove next you at traffic light laughing, was laughing at you. Why because he can.
The world is an ugly place and the only thing you can do about it is make your little home appealing to you and your family.
Your not changing the world by speaking up about that stupid cause you feel oh so strongly about. You waste everyone’s time talking about it to the guy in the cubical next you that humors you by nodding his head. Your changing this country, while the rest of the world sits and laughs and mocks the once strongest nation.
I believe it was a Japanese commander who said “we did not win, all we did was waken a sleeping dragon”
All we are doing is becoming sissies who don’t want to hurt other peoples feelings or speak the truth.
We supposed to be adult and take a verbal lashing with out crying about it.
http:///forum/post/2510904
Your last post seems to be changing your argument. The first comment is the one where I was pointing out the evils done in past wars and how we absolutely must have standards....
Not really flip flopping or changing my argument, more or less pointing out that you want morals/standards. Part of that post was “here…. we still have the morals of decent society” examples “X,Y,Z even during war”
My argument is strictly based off the fact that previous post were stated as torture was morally wrong and every other bleeding heart do gooder and do no evil post.
Believe me when I say … I wish their was no need for torture and war. It’s a scary idea when you think about bringing a child into this world.
The fact still remains with life comes war. Every civilization has fought wars. Just because we walk upward and have opposable thumbs and can think freely, doesn’t mean that we don’t have a need to resort to medieval ways and to kill those who appose are beliefs. That’s life.
We as a changing society have this need, want or feel that everything in the world should be nice and lovely. In a perfect world….. Sure let its all me automatons and all look the same, feel the same, dress the same, eat the same and we can all live as one in a strawberry field for ever and be BFF.
In the real world …ah…. No not going to happen, your kids BFF will most likely despise your kid later in life for no good reason other then social status and or change. War will continue, NJ will always SUX and rob us blind.
So if at the end of the work week, if I can come home crack open a beer and watch my kids play in the yard with a dog and nice white picket fence and my wife can wear jeans and an shirt and not have to worry about getting stoned to death because some CIA operative torture some animal with water or a frozen knife……….ah …………. Good, why cause I can live the American dream and thank a solider for his actions and service at the local pub down the street.
People……. Wake up. The truth is ugly, war is ugly and guy that drove next you at traffic light laughing, was laughing at you. Why because he can.
The world is an ugly place and the only thing you can do about it is make your little home appealing to you and your family.
Your not changing the world by speaking up about that stupid cause you feel oh so strongly about. You waste everyone’s time talking about it to the guy in the cubical next you that humors you by nodding his head. Your changing this country, while the rest of the world sits and laughs and mocks the once strongest nation.
I believe it was a Japanese commander who said “we did not win, all we did was waken a sleeping dragon”
All we are doing is becoming sissies who don’t want to hurt other peoples feelings or speak the truth.
We supposed to be adult and take a verbal lashing with out crying about it.
sharkbait9
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2511031
This is an enemy with whom there can be no negotiated settlement. They only understand brute force. However we do have to be careful that we don't alienate others who we need to join in the fight to exterminate these animals. Unfortunatly there are a lot of places in the Muslim world that aren't too sophisticated and they are easily swayed by pro muslim propaganda. Thats why we can't blow the hell out of mosques terrorists hide in to shoot at our guys. That is why the incident at Abu Gharib was so devistating. Sure, they cut the heads off of their prisioners of war and there isn't a huge outcry from the muslim world over it but spread pictures around of a woman soldier humiliating a Muslim prisoner and they go nuts. Yes it's an insane double standard but its one we have to deal with because we can not defeat muslim extremists without the help of rational members of that religion..
Well more and more nations are not getting involved, i don't blame them, G.W Bush is an A-hole.
What ever the new hot topic is we run and jump on it. As a nation, i would not help the US out. We try and tell the other nations involved to follow the US policy during war.
http:///forum/post/2511031
This is an enemy with whom there can be no negotiated settlement. They only understand brute force. However we do have to be careful that we don't alienate others who we need to join in the fight to exterminate these animals. Unfortunatly there are a lot of places in the Muslim world that aren't too sophisticated and they are easily swayed by pro muslim propaganda. Thats why we can't blow the hell out of mosques terrorists hide in to shoot at our guys. That is why the incident at Abu Gharib was so devistating. Sure, they cut the heads off of their prisioners of war and there isn't a huge outcry from the muslim world over it but spread pictures around of a woman soldier humiliating a Muslim prisoner and they go nuts. Yes it's an insane double standard but its one we have to deal with because we can not defeat muslim extremists without the help of rational members of that religion..
Well more and more nations are not getting involved, i don't blame them, G.W Bush is an A-hole.
What ever the new hot topic is we run and jump on it. As a nation, i would not help the US out. We try and tell the other nations involved to follow the US policy during war.
sharkbait9
Active Member
and another thing... "we are the greatest nations to ever exist"?????
I bet a bunch of countries would debate that.
I bet a bunch of countries would debate that.
sharkbait9
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2510176
I strongly resent that. When have I ever disparaged the United States?
I appologize if my personal standards have offended you.
your personal standards don't offend me. what ever you do... do it, how ever you feel..... keep feeling it. Who ever you hate.... keep hating them. Chances are they hate you too.
But when you or anyone of self respect in everyday life looks at the news and gets all uppity about water boarding and torture and “its morally wrong to do“. No one said you had to do it. We have military people who do it for you to keep you safe, you should thank them. Your morals should not be involved in something you are not doing. You can sit their and say you don’t agree and that’s fine, but when it comes to keeping this nation and our soils free from war and terror. Let them do what they need to do.
http:///forum/post/2510176
I strongly resent that. When have I ever disparaged the United States?
I appologize if my personal standards have offended you.
your personal standards don't offend me. what ever you do... do it, how ever you feel..... keep feeling it. Who ever you hate.... keep hating them. Chances are they hate you too.
But when you or anyone of self respect in everyday life looks at the news and gets all uppity about water boarding and torture and “its morally wrong to do“. No one said you had to do it. We have military people who do it for you to keep you safe, you should thank them. Your morals should not be involved in something you are not doing. You can sit their and say you don’t agree and that’s fine, but when it comes to keeping this nation and our soils free from war and terror. Let them do what they need to do.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2511190
your personal standards don't offend me. what ever you do... do it, how ever you feel..... keep feeling it. Who ever you hate.... keep hating them. Chances are they hate you too.
But when you or anyone of self respect in everyday life looks at the news and gets all uppity about water boarding and torture and “its morally wrong to do“. No one said you had to do it. We have military people who do it for you to keep you safe, you should thank them. Your morals should not be involved in something you are not doing. You can sit their and say you don’t agree and that’s fine, but when it comes to keeping this nation and our soils free from war and terror. Let them do what they need to do.
I don't remember getting uppity either. The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine. How is that getting uppity?
I was in the military for over 20 years. I may have only been in the Gulf War for 6 months but hey, we won that one didn't we.
41st Electronic Combat Squadron
1979 - 1998
Guy
My Challenge Coin:
oscardeuce
Active Member
It is quite difficult to win a war and be totally moral. Was it moral to fire bomb Dresden, or use nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yes and no. It was moral that the good guys won, and evil lost. It was moral that postentiall millions of lives were saved, at the cost of 5-10%.
Can one fight without morals? Yes, but one must know when the morals may interfere with victory. Again, read the accounts of the war in the Pacific, a war with few rules, and at times few morals.
Thank you for your service Bang, and the other vets on this board.
Can one fight without morals? Yes, but one must know when the morals may interfere with victory. Again, read the accounts of the war in the Pacific, a war with few rules, and at times few morals.
Thank you for your service Bang, and the other vets on this board.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2511449
It is quite difficult to win a war and be totally moral. Was it moral to fire bomb Dresden, or use nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yes and no. It was moral that the good guys won, and evil lost. It was moral that postentiall millions of lives were saved, at the cost of 5-10%.
Can one fight without morals? Yes, but one must know when the morals may interfere with victory. Again, read the accounts of the war in the Pacific, a war with few rules, and at times few morals.
Thank you for your service Bang, and the other vets on this board.
I'm with you, we need to do what we need to do. I really believe with our superior surveillance systems, advanced intelligence methods, and general military superiority, torture is one of the things we no longer have to do. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the big picture. I'm just not convinced that torture gains us more information than we lose by using it.
How much information is lost when a soon to be captured combatant kills themselves to avoid being tortured? Information that can be gained through coersion and other means other than torture?
If waterboarding is one of the things we have to do and it makes sense in the long run then, well, I can only hope we're not just using it because it's easier than the hard work needed to gain information through other channels.
http:///forum/post/2511449
It is quite difficult to win a war and be totally moral. Was it moral to fire bomb Dresden, or use nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yes and no. It was moral that the good guys won, and evil lost. It was moral that postentiall millions of lives were saved, at the cost of 5-10%.
Can one fight without morals? Yes, but one must know when the morals may interfere with victory. Again, read the accounts of the war in the Pacific, a war with few rules, and at times few morals.
Thank you for your service Bang, and the other vets on this board.
I'm with you, we need to do what we need to do. I really believe with our superior surveillance systems, advanced intelligence methods, and general military superiority, torture is one of the things we no longer have to do. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the big picture. I'm just not convinced that torture gains us more information than we lose by using it.
How much information is lost when a soon to be captured combatant kills themselves to avoid being tortured? Information that can be gained through coersion and other means other than torture?
If waterboarding is one of the things we have to do and it makes sense in the long run then, well, I can only hope we're not just using it because it's easier than the hard work needed to gain information through other channels.
A
alexmir
Guest
I am completely for it, i dont see it as torture if hes completely fine in a few minutes. Ive had my head forced under water to the point where i freaked out just wrestling in the pool with friends. I went through more tramatic moments than that in school by getting picked on and by jerk kids! If a 10 year old kid can make it through something that tramatizes him, then so can a murderer of americans!!
sharkbait9
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2511393
I don't remember getting uppity either. The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine. How is that getting uppity?
I was in the military for over 20 years. I may have only been in the Gulf War for 6 months but hey, we won that one didn't we.
41st Electronic Combat Squadron
1979 - 1998
Guy
My Challenge Coin:
OK first off it's not all about you, bang. Lol It's a broad statement.
Secondly, good for you, I thank you for serving. Even if for a day, you still served in our military.
You did not fight for the president or what ever agenda they had, you fought for the guy next to you.
The gulf war, yes was a war but lets be honest, we had a good plan of attack and we caught them with their guard down. I'm not knocking our troops just we had a good plan and executed with the utmost perfection. So good in fact, we wheeled right by some of the enemy and did not even know it. Thats how good we were, when it came to war we knew how to fight.
Bang, then you know damn well the intel we got was not given to us with a trade of milk and cookies.
Sometimes we need to remember what it takes and the sacrifices that need to be given to have this nation run free as it did 10-20 years ago.
http:///forum/post/2511393
I don't remember getting uppity either. The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine. How is that getting uppity?
I was in the military for over 20 years. I may have only been in the Gulf War for 6 months but hey, we won that one didn't we.
41st Electronic Combat Squadron
1979 - 1998
Guy
My Challenge Coin:
OK first off it's not all about you, bang. Lol It's a broad statement.
Secondly, good for you, I thank you for serving. Even if for a day, you still served in our military.
You did not fight for the president or what ever agenda they had, you fought for the guy next to you.
The gulf war, yes was a war but lets be honest, we had a good plan of attack and we caught them with their guard down. I'm not knocking our troops just we had a good plan and executed with the utmost perfection. So good in fact, we wheeled right by some of the enemy and did not even know it. Thats how good we were, when it came to war we knew how to fight.
Bang, then you know damn well the intel we got was not given to us with a trade of milk and cookies.
Sometimes we need to remember what it takes and the sacrifices that need to be given to have this nation run free as it did 10-20 years ago.
lovethesea
Active Member
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2511172
I bet a bunch of countries would debate that.
how many of those countires screamed for our help when being "invaded" only to be freed by us and others??? How quickly they forget
Thanks Bang..........so much for any and all time served
http:///forum/post/2511172
I bet a bunch of countries would debate that.
how many of those countires screamed for our help when being "invaded" only to be freed by us and others??? How quickly they forget
Thanks Bang..........so much for any and all time served