Water boarding---for or against?

darthtang aw

Active Member
Here is the inherit problem with this. While I support it I can understand why some are against this. It goes all the way to the core of our very being. We are a country founded on basic human rights. For a long time those rights were only extended to some humans. Over time we moved past racial, sexual, and ethnic views to extend these rights to all citizens in this country. Even to the point where we extend these rights to our own criminals. It is a bsic principle and needs to be upheld.
Where this goes off track is we are dealing with people that DON'T feel, or agree with these same basic rights. Hence the problems Isreal has. Their viewpoint is based off of a theological and racist view point. Only those sons and Daughters of Allah deserve these rights. All others must be enslaved or destroyed. There is no room for compromise in their minds or hearts. There is no room for those that disagree. Their women are not granted these "basic" rights even. Women are treated and viewed worse than those pre women revolution in this country.
Thisd brings me to how my view is formed on this. If a person does not believe all people should have the same basic human rights this should exempt them from the same basic treatment.
Terrorists care not whom they kill, they care about the message and that it gets across. Sawing off a head, blowing up a school, Flying planes into a civilian building killing 3000 people all innocent. These people care not for my BASIC human rights, therefore in my eyes they are not deserving of theirs. If they were attacking purely military targets with the occasional civilian casualties, I would grant them these BASIC rights. But they aren't and never have. They target areas that create a high number casualties regardless of civilian or military. They do this to invoke fear and chaos. They do this to break a countries resolve and force them to question their own principals. And I will be DAMNed if I will ever feel concerned about someone's rights who isn't concerned about my own.
Now does this erode away our basic principals and affect what we hold dear in this country? I don't believe so. We treat our prisoners better than any country in the world. We treat illegal immigrants better. We don't execute immediately once a murderer has been convicted. We stick to our basic Human Rights principals. But in the instance of a group that cares absolutely nothing about basic human rights...I have no care or concern for.
There are some that will say, hey, aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek? That is true, but a person only has two cheeks, and when the both get slapped..............then what?
 

zman1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2509082
I find it interesting that conservatives are the ones who are generally pro toture and are also generally christains..
I agree it seems biased from a lot of the posters that have claimed to be Christians and educated. Not all but a higher number than I would have expected....
I will ask a question to them- "What Would Jesus Do"?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2509700
our
party....
I do find it interesting when a website has a bias one way or the other. IMO, it really stifles conversation, both in off topic and in the general forums. Today, I perused a few topics. One was a long thread on catching damsels. The advice offered seemed odd to me when it is very common knowledge how to solve the issue. Another just starting has a guy asking about a very invasive alga. We'll see how that one develops...
But, I am not saying having a forum for a sounding board is bad. RDO is that way, and has few people go there for actual fish advice, even though they have quite an active group of advanced aquarists. This is a way for like minded people to communicate, bond and interact so that is good.
"Our party" as in the one in am in, lol, nothing more meant by that....
If you know of a good way of catching damsels post away. My advice is always "don't buy damsels for reef tanks".
As I have said before, go to town posting advice. That's what the forum is for.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2509749
I agree it seems biased from a lot of the posters that have claimed to be Christians and educated. Not all but a higher number than I would have expected....
I will ask a question to them- "What Would Jesus Do"?
He would be killed...........you have to remember he ended up being tortured and murdered.....regardless of if I am a christian or not, I do not want to be tortured and killed in a similar manner.
God asked Jesus to die.
God asked me to raise and protect my family and spread the word of god...
Big difference. How can I spread the word of God if I am dead...
waterboarding protect my family without committing any sin......
(This is a bit tongue in cheek)
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2509749
...I will ask a question to them- "What Would Jesus Do"?
(I always find it equally fascinating when those that don't believe the Bible wish to hold other's to it's perceived standards.)
Well, that's a great question and I'll answer, based on my opinion.
First, you have the basic, and often quoted Luke 6:29+ "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you..."
Now, as we have discussed many, many, many times. The Bible must be taken in context. What is the context of Luke chapter 6? He wasn't teaching Foreign Policy. He as teaching His followers how to treat others (the chapter also tells to love your enemies, don't judge, to build your "house" on a firm foundation, etc.". Can you imagine a country trying to exist that way?
From a purely Biblical perspective, if you want to study foreign policy look to how warfare was done in the OT. Trust me, Al Qaeda is getting off lightly today as opposed to how the enemies of Israel were treated in the OT.
I'm not advocating we go back to OT genocide, nor do I believe, in context, that is what the Bible teaches. I'm just saying you can't apply 1 or 2 verses from the NT and pretend to be pointing out what the Bible teaches on foreign policy matters. It's a lot more complex than that.
 

phelpz

Member
How many attacks had there been before Sept. 11th on US soil?
1993 World Trade Center bombing.
What else?
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509797
As I have said before, go to town posting advice. That's what the forum is for.
Probably not when I am insulted here, in the off topic forum. I'll let you and the others in your party do the work in the actual newbee forum and elsewhere. I'll just hang here...
Just trying to kick my post count up so I can PM the seahorse types, since you erased my link to educational stuff...
But, I could just go peacefully away if you want to bring it back? Or you can erase me!
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by phelpz
http:///forum/post/2509807
How many attacks had there been before Sept. 11th on US soil?
1993 World Trade Center bombing.
What else?
*US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (technically US soil)
*USS Cole (in port in Yemen)
That said, don't write off the significance of the first attack on the Trade Center. They tried to bring the towers down and we didn't react. That lead to a series of attacks around the world against US targets and culminated with 9-11.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2509814
Probably not when I am insulted here, in the off topic forum. I'll let you and the others in your party do the work in the actual newbee forum and elsewhere. I'll just hang here...
Just trying to kick my post count up so I can PM the seahorse types, since you erased my link to educational stuff...
But, I could just go peacefully away if you want to bring it back? Or you can erase me!
Suzy, a few things.
First, threads leading to other forums, competitor sites, etc. will always be deleted by a Mod. Your particular thread in the seahorse forum was reported to the Mods through PM by another member.
Second. posts made in the Aquarium do not add to your post count.
Third, as long as you obey the forum rules no one is going to kick you out because of your opinions.
Fourth, I've stated before, if you feel a post insults you report it to a Mod. We will look into it.
Speaking of forum rules, you need to change your Avatar's title as it is in violation.
 

phelpz

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509815
*US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (technically US soil)
*USS Cole (in port in Yemen)
That said, don't write off the significance of the first attack on the Trade Center. They tried to bring the towers down and we didn't react. That lead to a series of attacks around the world against US targets and culminated with 9-11.
I suppose we're somewhat safer than we were before. I dont really think we are as safe as we should be considering all the time, and money thats has been and is still being poured into anti-terrorism and the Afghan/Iraqi wars.
Time will only tell.
or will tell. however it goes...
 

zman1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509803
(I always find it equally fascinating when those that don't believe the Bible wish to hold other's to it's perceived standards.). I'm just saying you can't apply 1 or 2 verses from the NT and pretend to be pointing out what the Bible teaches on foreign policy matters. It's a lot more complex than that.
Preach one thing, believe another...
Affirmation again, why I chose as an adult to reject my Assemblies of God upbringing. Contradiction and beliefs based solely on varying situations... I also, didn't have to look up Jim Bakker (PTL), Brother Swaggart (attended a few of his revivals), and Pat Robinson, they were apart of my daily life as a youth. So you don't know my history either... There are good aspects I learned from it, but it's this type of twisting that turned me away from the CHURCH.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2509834
Preach one thing, believe another...
Affirmation again, why I chose as an adult to reject my Assemblies of God upbringing. Contradiction and beliefs based solely on varying situations... I also, didn't have to look up Jim Bakker (PTL), Bother Swaggart (attended a few of his revivals), and Pat Robinson, they were apart of my daily life as a youth. So you don't know my history either... There are good aspects I learned from it, but it's this type of twisting that turned me away from the CHURCH.
Not twisting at all my friend. Context is everything. For instance, if you read just a chapter in one of the Gospels containing the cruxifiction story you might come away thinking Jesus died because the Jewish leaders wanted him dead. In fact, that kind of propoganda has been used to justify persecuting the Jewish people.
In context, however, the death of Jesus (Biblically) is explained in much greater detail.
As I stated in my post you quoted, you could not operate a Nation's government on the advice of Jesus strictly adhering to luke Chpt 6:29-31.
 

jmick

Active Member
Perhaps I am naive, but I have little or no fear of foreign terrorists attacking US SOIL again. Other then the two attacks on the Trade Center there have been no attacks on targets within the borders of the continental US. I am actually a lot more worried about our own home grown terrorists and nut jobs...think Northern IL and Virginia Tech.
The right-wing fear mongers desperately need us to remain fearful of another 9/11 to help keep guys like bush in office and try to win the election for McCain. It shocks me how many Americans actually buy into this...jeez; even H. Clinton used these tactics to get votes in Texas.
 

phelpz

Member
Remember on Family Guy when Lois runs for mayor?
Lois: But... what about the terrorists?
Lois: That's right, terrorists. We have intelligence that suggests that... Hitler... is plotting... with, with the Legion of Doom... to assassinate Jesus. Using the lake as a base.
 

suzy

Member
I can't even post a link to my own personal website? or my personal page about growing live food? Or my macro algae page?
 

zman1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2509878
I can't even post a link to my own personal website? or my personal page about growing live food? Or my macro algae page?
Go into CP and put your PWP link there under homepage. Click my name, you'll see a homepage link.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2509854
Perhaps I am naive, but I have little or no fear of foreign terrorists attacking US SOIL again. ....
List of failed attacks since 9-11 (that we know of)
*Richard Reid on inbound flight to Miami
*Padilla trying to manufactor dirty bomb and aiding terrorists
*Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.
*Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with trying to topple the Brooklyn Bridge
*Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy
*Possessing detailed reconnaissance on the Prudential Building in New Jersey.
*Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers. Plotted to bomb International Monetary Fund headquarters in Washington, the New York Stock Exchange and Citigroup in New York
*James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention in 04
*Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain: Plotted to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat while in the USA.
*Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Zand Wassim Mazloum: Accused of providing material support to terrorists, making bombs for use in Iraq. Arrested in Ohio.
*Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee: Cased and videotaped the Capitol and World Bank for a terrorist organization.
*Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine: Accused of plotting to blow up the Sears Tower.
*Assem Hammoud: Accused of plotting to hit New York City train tunnels.
*2006 Liquid Explosives Plot: Thwarted plot to explode ten airliners over the United States.
*Fort Dix Plot: Six men accused of plotting to attack Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey.
*JFK Plot: Four men accused of plotting to blow up fuel arteries underneath JFK Airport in New York.
*Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
Granted some of these are "homegrown", but even the home grown have ties to radical islamists overseas.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2509878
I can't even post a link to my own personal website? or my personal page about growing live food? Or my macro algae page?
Not if it leads to another forum Suzy. (for the record, one of our Mods has a great informational site she created and maintains. We hold the same rules to ourselves) Links to competitors, potential competitors, other forums, sites that advertise, etc. are all removed.
 

abethedog

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509883
List of failed attacks since 9-11 (that we know of)
*Richard Reid on inbound flight to Miami
*Padilla trying to manufactor dirty bomb and aiding terrorists
*Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.
*Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with trying to topple the Brooklyn Bridge
*Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy
*Possessing detailed reconnaissance on the Prudential Building in New Jersey.
*Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers. Plotted to bomb International Monetary Fund headquarters in Washington, the New York Stock Exchange and Citigroup in New York
*James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention in 04
*Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain: Plotted to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat while in the USA.
*Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Zand Wassim Mazloum: Accused of providing material support to terrorists, making bombs for use in Iraq. Arrested in Ohio.
*Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee: Cased and videotaped the Capitol and World Bank for a terrorist organization.
*Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine: Accused of plotting to blow up the Sears Tower.
*Assem Hammoud: Accused of plotting to hit New York City train tunnels.
*2006 Liquid Explosives Plot: Thwarted plot to explode ten airliners over the United States.
*Fort Dix Plot: Six men accused of plotting to attack Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey.
*JFK Plot: Four men accused of plotting to blow up fuel arteries underneath JFK Airport in New York.
*Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
Granted some of these are "homegrown", but even the home grown have ties to radical islamists overseas.
I would be interested to know (doubt it is possible, though) if waterboarding or similar methods developed the intel that helped thwart an attack.
I refuse to believe that the war on terror is being kept alive by the right trying to keep conservatives in office. No Way!
 
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