Way to go California Supreme Court

renogaw

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2614301
lol, as a guy I say poor kid that is like dressing up your dog! But then again people do that too

i agree... boys should be treated as boys...
girls are a tad different... no one is going to call a girl handsome if they dress in jeans or play with cars...
and yea, i think that if the boy gets used to being in dresses, etc, it's not giving him the opportunity to think like a boy. my 2 year old nephew on my sister's side wasn't dressed in dresses, etc, and he has older sister.
i really don't think it is genetic...there are way too many straight parents with gay children. genetic means it is in their genes, so if the parents are both straight, how can they have a genetic child that is gay.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2614314
There were probably 50 other photographers in that area that would have done it... but if a person refuses to offer his services at an event that makes him/her uncomfortable.. I think they should have the right to refuse.. I agree I don't want judges who are extremist either way... and I do think that civil rights laws should apply to people who are homosexual... I guess this is a difficult issue, I take my history as an african american and try to compare the two b/w what happened w/ our civil rights issues... I do think the photographer has their own rights that are being overlooked.
lol you are taking opposite positions, in the same paragraph, should I be able to refuse service to a black man because he is black? The judicial position is that being black is the same as being gay as far as civil rights laws go.
Then you start getting into the government now forcing people into doing things that would imply that they condone acts that clearly run contrary to their religious belief stucture. Just like the photographer shouldn't be forced to take pictures of a nudist wedding, or of a skin club.
And no homosexuals shouldn't be covered by civil rights legislation, it delegitimizes old african-american issues that were being addressed back then. It is questionable whether they are born or made. (My homosexual cousin made a decision after some monster molested her as a child) I can go find scientists who will say that it is choice for as many who say it is genetic. You don't choose to be black or white, (well I know michael jackson but ok come on)
 

dragonzim

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2614325
i really don't think it is genetic...there are way too many straight parents with gay children. genetic means it is in their genes, so if the parents are both straight, how can they have a genetic child that is gay.
I dont think the "genetic" argument that people use means that it is a trait inherited directly from the parents. More, it is meant to mean that being straight or gay is hard wired into the brain and it is NOT a choice that the person makes. I know plenty of gays, some of whom are great friends of mine and I'd be willing to bet that 90% or so of them would "choose" to be straight if they had any choice whatsoever in the matter.
 

teresaq

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2614325
i agree... boys should be treated as boys...
girls are a tad different... no one is going to call a girl handsome if they dress in jeans or play with cars...
and yea, i think that if the boy gets used to being in dresses, etc, it's not giving him the opportunity to think like a boy. my 2 year old nephew on my sister's side wasn't dressed in dresses, etc, and he has older sister.
.
Oh, he is treated as a boy and no he dosent wear dresses, but the girls do put hair things in now and then. He thinks its funny then pulls them out. I see nothing wrong with it.
Just as I see nothing wrong with boys playing house now and then, or girls playing with cars and sports.
Having spent the last 10 yrs in the company of social workers and child rearing classes, these things teach our children to become better parents them selves.
 

teresaq

Active Member
Originally Posted by DragonZim
http:///forum/post/2614339
I dont think the "genetic" argument that people use means that it is a trait inherited directly from the parents. More, it is meant to mean that being straight or gay is hard wired into the brain and it is NOT a choice that the person makes. I know plenty of gays, some of whom are great friends of mine and I'd be willing to bet that 90% or so of them would "choose" to be straight if they had any choice whatsoever in the matter.
Yes, this is what I ment when saying genetic. just like children that are born one gender on the out side and one on the inside.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2614328
lol you are taking opposite positions, in the same paragraph, should I be able to refuse service to a black man because he is black? The judicial position is that being black is the same as being gay as far as civil rights laws go.
Then you start getting into the government now forcing people into doing things that would imply that they condone acts that clearly run contrary to their religious belief stucture. Just like the photographer shouldn't be forced to take pictures of a nudist wedding, or of a skin club.
And no homosexuals shouldn't be covered by civil rights legislation, it delegitimizes old african-american issues that were being addressed back then. It is questionable whether they are born or made. (My homosexual cousin made a decision after some monster molested her as a child) I can go find scientists who will say that it is choice for as many who say it is genetic. You don't choose to be black or white, (well I know michael jackson but ok come on)

I agree with you.. I don't feel people should be discriminated against, however I do also sympathize with the photographer's rights... And as far as the scientific aspect... I am conflicted with that as well... I do think science namely hormones may have something to do with it, as well as life experiences such as abuse or gender identity confusion. I also believe that this is not what God intended and it breaks laws of nature... however I don't believe I should treat people different and we can have a healthy relationships even if I don't agree with whom they choose as a mate...
But in respect to God...there are many things that were not intended for us, but occurred based on the fall and sin... such as death and disease. Its just the world we live in..
 

aquaknight

Active Member
I don't think that's the exact point Reno is trying to make. With your son, he will still get a chance to 'be a boy.' As where that boy with the gay parents will be constantly 'approved' that him wearing dresses is okay, etc, even when that child gets older.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2614361
I agree with you.. I don't feel people should be discriminated against, however I do also sympathize with the photographer's rights... And as far as the scientific aspect... I am conflicted with that as well... I do think science namely hormones may have something to do with it, as well as life experiences such as abuse or gender identity confusion. I also believe that this is not what God intended and it breaks laws of nature... however I don't believe I should treat people different and we can have a healthy relationships even if I don't agree with whom they choose as a mate...
But in respect to God...there are many things that were not intended for us, but occurred based on the fall and sin... such as death and disease.
But to break it down,
1. 4 people overturned the voters will and it wasn't a 50-50 vote.
2. It is not a live and let live. I feel like I'm forced to accept something I feel is immoral.
3. 61% of californians (and this is LIBERAL california) voted against this as well.
4. The science of genetics vs choice is not decided.
5. By government dictating that homosexuality is covered under civil rights laws, it requires me to serve them in a way that would violate my religious beliefs infringing on my 1st rights to freedom of religion.
So that is my problem with the whole thing.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
#5 is my greatest concern.
By treating sexual preference as a "protected civil right" you open the floodgate to a host of other sexual behaviors that will be "protected".
As I said earlier Rylan, it's happening. Activist judges are forcing their beliefs on other people....
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2614374
But to break it down,
1. 4 people overturned the voters will and it wasn't a 50-50 vote.
2. It is not a live and let live. I feel like I'm forced to accept something I feel is immoral.
3. 61% of californians (and this is LIBERAL california) voted against this as well.
4. The science of genetics vs choice is not decided.
5. By government dictating that homosexuality is covered under civil rights laws, it requires me to serve them in a way that would violate my religious beliefs infringing on my 1st rights to freedom of religion.
So that is my problem with the whole thing.
So your "freedom of religion" takes precedence over another class of individuals whose civil rights are being violated? How arrogant is that? Who are you to put your religious beliefs over another individual's personal beliefs? I love the way the religious fanatics try to skew the First Amendment in their favor. The First Amendment states --- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Where does that say allowing gays to be married infringes on your right to practice your religion anyway you like? Just because you don't agree with the tenets of gay marriage, that keeps you from practicing your religion? That's ridiculous. I'm sick of people pushing their religious beliefs down my throat. It's like the pharmacists who refuse to distribute the 'morning after' pill to someone who has a valid prescription because it's against their 'religious beliefs'. If that's your religious choice, fine. But it's also doing your job. You can't do the job as described, QUIT, LEAVE, let someone else fill the prescription.
Please get over your paranoia about "opening the floodgates" to other forms of sexual behaviors. You honestly think a very SMALL minority of individuals who are into beastiality, transgenderism, or whatever forms of

[hr]
fettishs they're into, could muster up a large enough contengency to change the same laws as the homosexuals are trying to accomplish? And those same activists judges are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade because the same people against homosexual marriages are also the same bunch against abortion. So sorry, it goes both ways. Forcing 'their' beliefs on other people...
 

scotts

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2614192
Bionicarm, if it is all about "legalization" why change marriage? Why not simply legalize Civil Unions?
CA does have civil unions.
However to me this sounds like "separate but equal" We know how well that worked.
 

scotts

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2614139
But as put forth in the constitution through the 10th amendment powers not granted to the federal government are reserved to the states. That give the state every right to ban gay marriage.
Agreed. That also gives the states the right to allow gay marriages. The law was overturned because it violated the CA state constitution, not specifically legalizing gay marriages.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2614314
There were probably 50 other photographers in that area that would have done it... but if a person refuses to offer his services at an event that makes him/her uncomfortable.. I think they should have the right to refuse.. I agree I don't want judges who are extremist either way... and I do think that civil rights laws should apply to people who are homosexual... I guess this is a difficult issue, I take my history as an african american and try to compare the two b/w what happened w/ our civil rights issues... I do think the photographer has their own rights that are being overlooked.
And if the photographer refused to take photos of your wedding because you are black...
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2614361
I agree with you.. I don't feel people should be discriminated against, however I do also sympathize with the photographer's rights... And as far as the scientific aspect... I am conflicted with that as well... I do think science namely hormones may have something to do with it, as well as life experiences such as abuse or gender identity confusion. I also believe that this is not what God intended and it breaks laws of nature... however I don't believe I should treat people different and we can have a healthy relationships even if I don't agree with whom they choose as a mate...
But in respect to God...there are many things that were not intended for us, but occurred based on the fall and sin... such as death and disease. Its just the world we live in..
You're on solid ground here. There is a huge difference between making a objection based on religious grounds and racial. There is a legitimate religious objection to attending or participating in a gay wedding. Had the woman objected because of the race of the couple it would be a different issue.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Scotts
http:///forum/post/2614467
Agreed. That also gives the states the right to allow gay marriages. The law was overturned because it violated the CA state constitution, not specifically legalizing gay marriages.

That was the decision but I really don't see anything there to back up the ruling. In fact California's constitution mentions the 14th amendment's equal protection clause which the US Supreme Court has held doesn't prohibit a gay marriage ban.
 

scotts

Active Member
Reef, I don't know. I do know that I have been reminded why I do not enter in discussions like this on this board. So allow me to bow out now.
Have fun y'all!
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2614446
So your "freedom of religion" takes precedence over another class of individuals whose civil rights are being violated? How arrogant is that? Who are you to put your religious beliefs over another individual's personal beliefs? I love the way the religious fanatics try to skew the First Amendment in their favor. The First Amendment states --- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Where does that say allowing gays to be married infringes on your right to practice your religion anyway you like? Just because you don't agree with the tenets of gay marriage, that keeps you from practicing your religion? That's ridiculous. I'm sick of people pushing their religious beliefs down my throat. It's like the pharmacists who refuse to distribute the 'morning after' pill to someone who has a valid prescription because it's against their 'religious beliefs'. If that's your religious choice, fine. But it's also doing your job. You can't do the job as described, QUIT, LEAVE, let someone else fill the prescription.
Please get over your paranoia about "opening the floodgates" to other forms of sexual behaviors. You honestly think a very SMALL minority of individuals who are into beastiality, transgenderism, or whatever forms of

[hr]
fettishs they're into, could muster up a large enough contengency to change the same laws as the homosexuals are trying to accomplish? And those same activists judges are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade because the same people against homosexual marriages are also the same bunch against abortion. So sorry, it goes both ways. Forcing 'their' beliefs on other people...
Arrogant, no, scewing the first amendment, no.
I really wish you would have read all of my posts. You are right it does work both ways. If someone walks into my Dad's photography shop, the precident says I can't tell a homosexual couple no I will not photograph your wedding or civil union. Personally I feel that participating by taking photos would be condoning an action I do not condone because of religious beliefs. But the courts have said that I have to or else they'll fine me, based on a trio (I don't think the supreme court ruled on it) of district judges who decided to apply a law (civil rights act) that has nothing to do with homosexuality to homosexuals. Basically the government is telling me to disregard my religious convictions because I'm not allowed to discriminate. That would be a government saying a portion of my RELIGIOUS BELIEVE STRUCTURE IS ILLEGAL!
-Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Second, the legislation passed by 20%! Four judges overturned the vote of 60% of the californian legislation.
If anything those four judges are forcing their belief system on the majority of the population. Constitutionally it is up to the states, the people voted, the state decided then the judicial system said no your votes are irrelevent. (that is my main hangup)
I fail to see how this is forcing my religion on anyone. I said nothing about humping goats. (other than explaining to rylan about the court case)
That morning after pill was a private business being sued for what it did not sell. Yeah that isn't forcing beliefs one anybody you are right. They were wrong for not wanting to sell an item in their inventory. Seriously, there were other drug stores in the area, go somewhere else instead of trying to force someone to carry something you think they should carry. These are people out to start something. To force their belief stucture on someone else. It does work both ways.
But before you call me arrogant, at least read what I've said, and quit getting mad at me for wanting to live my life without being forced to do thing I don't want to do in the name of equality. And quit getting fed up with people for not doing something they think is wrong.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by Scotts
http:///forum/post/2614582
Reef, I don't know. I do know that I have been reminded why I do not enter in discussions like this on this board. So allow me to bow out now.
Have fun y'all!
well you have to do something while you are bored at work.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2614446
So your "freedom of religion" takes precedence over another class of individuals whose civil rights are being violated? How arrogant is that? Who are you to put your religious beliefs over another individual's personal beliefs? I love the way the religious fanatics try to skew the First Amendment in their favor. The First Amendment states --- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Where does that say allowing gays to be married infringes on your right to practice your religion anyway you like? Just because you don't agree with the tenets of gay marriage, that keeps you from practicing your religion? That's ridiculous. I'm sick of people pushing their religious beliefs down my throat. It's like the pharmacists who refuse to distribute the 'morning after' pill to someone who has a valid prescription because it's against their 'religious beliefs'. If that's your religious choice, fine. But it's also doing your job. You can't do the job as described, QUIT, LEAVE, let someone else fill the prescription.
Please get over your paranoia about "opening the floodgates" to other forms of sexual behaviors. You honestly think a very SMALL minority of individuals who are into beastiality, transgenderism, or whatever forms of

[hr]
fettishs they're into, could muster up a large enough contengency to change the same laws as the homosexuals are trying to accomplish? And those same activists judges are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade because the same people against homosexual marriages are also the same bunch against abortion. So sorry, it goes both ways. Forcing 'their' beliefs on other people...
Between the two of us, only one of us continues to post about religion....
Marriage is between a man and woman. Now, suddenly, we're using terms like "non traditional" marriage and "gay marriage" while trying to pretend marriage applies to anyone and everyone who wants to get hitched. Sorry; As I've stated, you can't change the definition of a word to fit your agenda.
 

salty blues

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2614446
Please get over your paranoia about "opening the floodgates" to other forms of sexual behaviors. You honestly think a very SMALL minority of individuals who are into beastiality, transgenderism, or whatever forms of

[hr]
fettishs they're into, could muster up a large enough contengency to change the same laws as the homosexuals are trying to accomplish? And those same activists judges are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade because the same people against homosexual marriages are also the same bunch against abortion. So sorry, it goes both ways. Forcing 'their' beliefs on other people...
It hasn't been too many years ago that the idea of gay marriage was unthinkable. But now it is indeed happening.
So yes, it is entirely possible that fetishes and perversions that are considered to be outside the realm of normality today could easily become the norm years down the road.
And what activist judges are trying to overturn Roe? Their ilk are what decided Roe/Wade to start with.
 
Top