"We will not rest"

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/3197694
Yes it did. This misguided concept is what has to change. Our people are on these planes, American people. So if that plane is coming to our homeland, then our borders have to include the loading station. Not talking about legal ownership of land, but legal jurisdiction to run the screening and boarding of passengers. And if any country denies us this authority, then we don't allow planes to enter the US from those originations. This is not rocket science here. Why on God's green earth would we allow foreigners to be solely responsible for saying who can/cannot board a plane bound for the US and loaded with American people?

So are you willing to increase your taxes to pay for all this 'protection'? Believe me, assigning US security agents to every single point of entry into the US from every region in the world will not come cheap. You say it's not rocket science, but actually it is. People have been flying Internationally since the 50's. Not until Lockerbie did the cold hard truth of terrorists blowing up planes come to light (at least I think that's where it started). It's virtually impossible to stop 100% of the people flying in a plane from becoming a terrorist like this kid. The only way you could do that is by having 'strip down n@ked full body searches' of every single passenger getting on a plane. Taking apart every single item and inspecting every piece of luggage that boards a plane. You willing to go through those motions in order to fly, even if it's within your own state? If you want 100% assurance that any and all flights will be safe from terroristic attacks, that's what you'd have to do.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3197701
TSA must approve the security and proceedures of the foreign airport or the planes do not enter US airspace. They cannot even fly OVER the US if they don't comply. It wasn't an airport security issue in this case in my opinion, it was an information dissemenation issue. If you don't do a full body search of every individual then you cannot prevent someone from carrying bad things onto a plane. What you can do is limit who is allowed to get on a plane to the US, who is allowed to cross the border into the US is the issue from my perspective.
We need to stop being afraid of hurting peoples feelings.
Exactly who is this 'Who' you are referring to? It's already been shown that Al-Qaeda has started recruiting Red Blooded White Boy Americans into their regime. So exactly how do you disseminate the good from the bad? You think it's only Middle Eatern and North African inidividuals that are capable of plotting and carrying out stuff like this? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh or the Unabomber? Whose to say YOU should be allowed to board a plane? Can you guarantee me 100% you'd never do something like this?

 

[t316]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3197785
So are you willing to increase your taxes to pay for all this 'protection'? Believe me, assigning US security agents to every single point of entry into the US from every region in the world will not come cheap. You say it's not rocket science, but actually it is. People have been flying Internationally since the 50's. Not until Lockerbie did the cold hard truth of terrorists blowing up planes come to light (at least I think that's where it started). It's virtually impossible to stop 100% of the people flying in a plane from becoming a terrorist like this kid. The only way you could do that is by having 'strip down n@ked full body searches' of every single passenger getting on a plane. Taking apart every single item and inspecting every piece of luggage that boards a plane. You willing to go through those motions in order to fly, even if it's within your own state? If you want 100% assurance that any and all flights will be safe from terroristic attacks, that's what you'd have to do.
At the moment, I'm liking the full body scanner/x-ray thingys. Profiling has some merit, but as mentioned, recruitment will just turn to a race/profile that's not on the normal profile list, and eventually that method is useless. There is a scanner/x-ray box thingy out there that the person walks thru (can stop briefly and turn around), and the administrator/viewer can see literally right down to your privates. There could be a line for males and a line for females, and viewable only by appropriately matching gender. Yes, of course there are flaws here too, such as invasion of privacy, terrorist hiding items inside body cavities, etc, but IMO it beats the current methods.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3197790
Exactly who is this 'Who' you are referring to? It's already been shown that Al-Qaeda has started recruiting Red Blooded White Boy Americans into their regime. So exactly how do you disseminate the good from the bad? You think it's only Middle Eatern and North African inidividuals that are capable of plotting and carrying out stuff like this? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh or the Unabomber? Whose to say YOU should be allowed to board a plane? Can you guarantee me 100% you'd never do something like this?
My feelings are not going to be hurt when they start profiling Native American patriots.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3197801
My feelings are not going to be hurt when they start profiling Native American patriots.
So if they profile everyone, who gets to ride on a plane? %%

 

[reefraff]

What is so hard to deal with here?
There is a significant faction within the Islamic religion that promotes, aids and celebrates terrorist activities. The vast majority of those are young men.
Certain countries are known to have high amounts of terrorist activities and training camps.
So, you got a young man, who happens to be Islamic, happens to come from a country known for a good amount of terrorist activities. His father warns officials he is concerned about his sons connections to a known terrorist organization. Hello? Anyone home?
I frankly don't give a damn if other countries call it profiling or not. We should be casting a skeptical eye on young male Muslims from countries with known terrorist bases.

 

[kingsmith]

But has anyone read or have any comments one the well dressed man who supposedly aided this young man in getting on the plane? Some supposedly free press outlets are reporting this%%

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3197924
What is so hard to deal with here?
There is a significant faction within the Islamic religion that promotes, aids and celebrates terrorist activities. The vast majority of those are young men.
Certain countries are known to have high amounts of terrorist activities and training camps.
So, you got a young man, who happens to be Islamic, happens to come from a country known for a good amount of terrorist activities. His father warns officials he is concerned about his sons connections to a known terrorist organization. Hello? Anyone home?
I frankly don't give a damn if other countries call it profiling or not. We should be casting a skeptical eye on young male Muslims from countries with known terrorist bases.
That will probably take care of 90% of the individuals who would take their life blowing up a bomb on a plane for their cause. So how do you detect and stop the other 10% that don't fit into this category?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3197926
That will probably take care of 90% of the individuals who would take their life blowing up a bomb on a plane for their cause. So how do you detect and stop the other 10% that don't fit into this category?

So just because it will only stop 90% it is a bad idea?

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3197926
That will probably take care of 90% of the individuals who would take their life blowing up a bomb on a plane for their cause. So how do you detect and stop the other 10% that don't fit into this category?
But your not saying we should ignore 90% because it's not 100% are you?
I am getting to the point where I think the best solution is to create a fly list instead of the do not fly list.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3197922
So if they profile everyone, who gets to ride on a plane? %%
Basically rich tourists, American citizens, and people that have a confirmed background check. We spend more time on background checks selling people a .22 at Walmart than we do giving them full access to the country for Cristsake.
This guy was allowed on a plane only because it would have offended people not to let him on. That is the ONLY reason he was on the plane, to avoid offending people.

 

[ironeagle2006]

I asked my old HS friend who flew to Tel Aviv last year for a wedding of his Cousins what El-Al's security was like. He goes I made the mistake of FARTING while being screened next thing I knew I had 3 security agents doing a FULLL BODY CAVITY SEARCH WITH THEIR HANDS. Needless to say they found nothing I almost missed my flight however I would fly El-Al again in a heartbeat compared to US security next time I fly overseas at least I know I will not have anyone trying to take the plane over or BLOW IT UP.

 

[theclemsonkid]

As someone who worked in private aviation for two years...
Airline security is a losing battle plain and simple. As of today, there is no "fix all" method to check people 100%.
The terrorists are smart and good at adapting. Now that this guy used whatever chemical that was, there will be a way to detect it. Just like the shoe bomber, the hijackers, etc before him. Once they get caught doing something, they are on to the next way to outsmart whatever measures are in place.
We for some reason focus on what already happened, instead of looking for ways to stay ahead of the game and what will happen. Is there any real way to detect it? Not a chance.
And I think what people don't know is really scary.
What I was always worried about was surface to air missiles. Anyone here been in the service? Have you been lucky enough to see one of those in use?
Think about it. There are something like 250+ airports operating in the US that have commercial jetliners flying in and out every day.
Most of them are in low income, or rural areas, which means the incoming and outgoing flights usually fly low on approach over residential housing or commercial warehouses.
It's only going to be a matter of time before someone sets up shop and brings a big airliner down...
Then what? Just stop air travel all together?

 

[reefraff]

You have to adapt but you can't ignore what has already been done. You could just drive a truck into the path of a landing plane if you want to go low tech.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3197990
As someone who worked in private aviation for two years...
Airline security is a losing battle plain and simple. As of today, there is no "fix all" method to check people 100%.
The terrorists are smart and good at adapting. Now that this guy used whatever chemical that was, there will be a way to detect it. Just like the shoe bomber, the hijackers, etc before him. Once they get caught doing something, they are on to the next way to outsmart whatever measures are in place.
We for some reason focus on what already happened, instead of looking for ways to stay ahead of the game and what will happen. Is there any real way to detect it? Not a chance.
And I think what people don't know is really scary.
What I was always worried about was surface to air missiles. Anyone here been in the service? Have you been lucky enough to see one of those in use?
Think about it. There are something like 250+ airports operating in the US that have commercial jetliners flying in and out every day.
Most of them are in low income, or rural areas, which means the incoming and outgoing flights usually fly low on approach over residential housing or commercial warehouses.
It's only going to be a matter of time before someone sets up shop and brings a big airliner down...
Then what? Just stop air travel all together?

Breaking into a metal finishing plant and stealing 1000 lbs of sodium cyanide and dropping it in a water tower would be more likely than someone hauling around a S.A.M. unnoticed.....

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3197973
Basically rich tourists, American citizens, and people that have a confirmed background check. We spend more time on background checks selling people a .22 at Walmart than we do giving them full access to the country for Cristsake.
This guy was allowed on a plane only because it would have offended people not to let him on. That is the ONLY reason he was on the plane, to avoid offending people.
Ah, so only the elite will be able to fly. And you assume the airlines will be able to survive with only 5% of the American public flying?
Are you part of this elite group that will have flying status? You willing to pay $2000 for a roundtrip ticket between Houston and Dallas? Here's a simple solution. If you fear for your life because of a possible terrorist attack on a plane, DON'T FLY. Take the train, Greyhound, or drive to your destination. Your type of paranoia is exactly what Al-Qaeda is wanting. They're not interested in randomly killing innocent Americans. They are in it for the fear factor. Based on your comments, it worked on you. You want to limit air travel for only a certain class of citizen so you can deny terrorists the opportunity. So what if it inconveniences 95% of the Americans who have no problem flying with this risk, as long as you feel safe, that's all that matters.

You're wanting to use the race card for the reason this kid got on the plane? How do you figure that? Who was he offending? He supposedly walked up to the ticket counter with a well-dressed Indian who essentially paid the $2800 one way ticket price, showed them a valid passport and visa, and let him go on his merry way. He made no demands from what I hear. They are saying he didn't even talk to the ticket agent, the Indian did all the talking. Who knows what this guy was telling the agent. I'm sure they just told him that if the young man had valid travel documents, and he was willing to pay the high-priced cost for a ticket, there'd be no problem letting him on the flight. So the Indian plopped $2800 cash on the counter, they cut him a ticket, and sent him to the gate. This transaction happens hundreds of times on a daily basis at airports around the world.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3198028
Breaking into a metal finishing plant and stealing 1000 lbs of sodium cyanide and dropping it in a water tower would be more likely than someone hauling around a S.A.M. unnoticed.....
Who says it has to be a S.A.M.? Me and some buddies got into model rocketry a couple years ago. We'd go to the rocket launches hosted by the local rocketry clubs in our area. You should see the size of some of these rockets. These puupies have the capability of hitting altitudes over 10,000 feet. When they schedule an event to shoot the 'Big Boys', they have to notify the FAA so that they can let planes flying in the area be aware that these big rockets may be sharing their air space. It wouldn't take much to put a simple guidance system on one of these model rockets and shoot it virtually anywhere a plane flys.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3198077
Ah, so only the elite will be able to fly. And you assume the airlines will be able to survive with only 5% of the American public flying?
Are you part of this elite group that will have flying status? You willing to pay $2000 for a roundtrip ticket between Houston and Dallas? Here's a simple solution. If you fear for your life because of a possible terrorist attack on a plane, DON'T FLY. Take the train, Greyhound, or drive to your destination. Your type of paranoia is exactly what Al-Qaeda is wanting. They're not interested in randomly killing innocent Americans. They are in it for the fear factor. Based on your comments, it worked on you. You want to limit air travel for only a certain class of citizen so you can deny terrorists the opportunity. So what if it inconveniences 95% of the Americans who have no problem flying with this risk, as long as you feel safe, that's all that matters.

You're wanting to use the race card for the reason this kid got on the plane? How do you figure that? Who was he offending? He supposedly walked up to the ticket counter with a well-dressed Indian who essentially paid the $2800 one way ticket price, showed them a valid passport and visa, and let him go on his merry way. He made no demands from what I hear. They are saying he didn't even talk to the ticket agent, the Indian did all the talking. Who knows what this guy was telling the agent. I'm sure they just told him that if the young man had valid travel documents, and he was willing to pay the high-priced cost for a ticket, there'd be no problem letting him on the flight. So the Indian plopped $2800 cash on the counter, they cut him a ticket, and sent him to the gate. This transaction happens hundreds of times on a daily basis at airports around the world.
Wow. I guess you chose to assume what I posted instead of actually reading it.
I suggest a background check for foreigners wanting to enter the country and you call me a racist. Nice.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3198077
Ah, so only the elite will be able to fly. And you assume the airlines will be able to survive with only 5% of the American public flying?
Are you part of this elite group that will have flying status? You willing to pay $2000 for a roundtrip ticket between Houston and Dallas? Here's a simple solution. If you fear for your life because of a possible terrorist attack on a plane, DON'T FLY. Take the train, Greyhound, or drive to your destination. Your type of paranoia is exactly what Al-Qaeda is wanting. They're not interested in randomly killing innocent Americans. They are in it for the fear factor. Based on your comments, it worked on you. You want to limit air travel for only a certain class of citizen so you can deny terrorists the opportunity. So what if it inconveniences 95% of the Americans who have no problem flying with this risk, as long as you feel safe, that's all that matters.

You're wanting to use the race card for the reason this kid got on the plane? How do you figure that? Who was he offending? He supposedly walked up to the ticket counter with a well-dressed Indian who essentially paid the $2800 one way ticket price, showed them a valid passport and visa, and let him go on his merry way. He made no demands from what I hear. They are saying he didn't even talk to the ticket agent, the Indian did all the talking. Who knows what this guy was telling the agent. I'm sure they just told him that if the young man had valid travel documents, and he was willing to pay the high-priced cost for a ticket, there'd be no problem letting him on the flight. So the Indian plopped $2800 cash on the counter, they cut him a ticket, and sent him to the gate. This transaction happens hundreds of times on a daily basis at airports around the world.
So you are saying we shouldn't fly if we don't want to become a victim but if the plane is blown out of the sky the wreckage has to land somewhere. Not flying isn't a safeguard.
How is it paranoia if people want to take steps to prevent people coming into the country known for a fact to want to cause mass casualties on the citizens of this country. It's about time people who think as you do wake up to the fact this is war, not a social issue. There is going to be a level of inconvenience involved. I am pretty cool with laying the majority of that on the people who fit the profile of a terrorist rather than a 9 year old kid or a 70 year old grandmother just so it doesn't look like we are basing it on ethnicity or religion other than Christian. Interesting how the ACLU gets their panties in a wad if we aren't sensitive enough in dealing with Muslim terrorist but don't give a damn when a citizen who happens to be a Christian has their rights trampled on.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3198197
So you are saying we shouldn't fly if we don't want to become a victim but if the plane is blown out of the sky the wreckage has to land somewhere. Not flying isn't a safeguard.
How is it paranoia if people want to take steps to prevent people coming into the country known for a fact to want to cause mass casualties on the citizens of this country. It's about time people who think as you do wake up to the fact this is war, not a social issue. There is going to be a level of inconvenience involved. I am pretty cool with laying the majority of that on the people who fit the profile of a terrorist rather than a 9 year old kid or a 70 year old grandmother just so it doesn't look like we are basing it on ethnicity or religion other than Christian. Interesting how the ACLU gets their panties in a wad if we aren't sensitive enough in dealing with Muslim terrorist but don't give a damn when a citizen who happens to be a Christian has their rights trampled on.
So how is Bush's "War On Terror" going these days? I recall a few of you here claiming our success in Iraq is the reason there's been no attacks on US soil. Yeaaaa, it's working out great. And please don't give me the "The terror attacks started as soon as Obama came into office" mantra. Case in point, this kid got his visa on Bush's watch.