What Came First...!?

[lovethesea]

it means just that............this topic comes up every couple of months and it always takes a very drastic turn when one or more people feel they are right and everyone else is wrong. The end result is always the same.
The beauty of our belief/s is that they are just that.......ours

 

[turboeel]

Ok. But I have never been involved in one of these threads before and i am shocked at the arrogance of some of these people. I forget who said it but someone said that evolution did not start with a unicellular organism. That just amazes me because scientists have evidence to prove that's where it started.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by turboeel
I think that we came from God is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I find it funny how once humans think that we were once created by Gods such as Zeus and all of that. I think Gods is for video games. i mean how did GOd come to be about? He wasn't always there. He did not always exist. Humans are just pathetic sometimes. We think that were centered around this whole universe and that were like the only life forms. You know how many gallexies are out there? Do all of those plantets that have life too believe in the same exact GOd as we do? What has evolved in humans is our intelligence and how we think we got here.
Sorry not to offend.
Actually, according to the Bible and God's own word, God always has existed, always was there, and actually created the universe. God spoke with moses and gave him the words to write. The bible is God's word, not some random person's word. God chose those people to record His word.
As for the universe, have you ever thought about how fortunate it is that we even know there is a universe around us? Most people don't think of this, but most planets have environments that are not only uninhabitable, but even if they were, they would make exploration of the universe (or even it's discovery) nearly impossible. Where the earth is, we get a clear night sky in which to see the stars, we have a moon that just happens to be very important with reguards to magnetism, we have the gas giant planets who have incredible gravitational pulls which greatly aid in protecting us from comets and meteors. If our planet had an atmosphere that didn't allow us to see the stars, we wouldn't even think about the possibility of a universe. And this is by design. Because the Bible says we have two forms of witness of God engrained in us from birth. The relevant one here is the light of creation. The universe is meant to be a witness of God. The second is the light of consiousness (sp), God's laws and morals are written onto our minds. Everyone receives those two lights, some receive much more light as they live, and others receive no more. We are judged by how we respond to the light we receive. And that is not a judgement of heaven and hell, but a degree of punishment in hell and reward in heaven. Some get saved with just the original two lights God gave them, there are examples of people never hearing of Jesus or the Bible in lands where He is just not known and they purposely went on journey's that led them to people who could give them more light.

 

[jmick]

Bah, you are all wrong! There is no god and man didn't evolve from monkeys...we came from the stars and one day our alien brothers will come back for us :hilarious

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by hagfish
Actually, according to the Bible and God's own word, God always has existed, always was there, and actually created the universe. God spoke with moses and gave him the words to write. The bible is God's word, not some random person's word. God chose those people to record His word.
As for the universe, have you ever thought about how fortunate it is that we even know there is a universe around us? Most people don't think of this, but most planets have environments that are not only uninhabitable, but even if they were, they would make exploration of the universe (or even it's discovery) nearly impossible. Where the earth is, we get a clear night sky in which to see the stars, we have a moon that just happens to be very important with reguards to magnetism, we have the gas giant planets who have incredible gravitational pulls which greatly aid in protecting us from comets and meteors. If our planet had an atmosphere that didn't allow us to see the stars, we wouldn't even think about the possibility of a universe. And this is by design. Because the Bible says we have two forms of witness of God engrained in us from birth. The relevant one here is the light of creation. The universe is meant to be a witness of God. The second is the light of consiousness (sp), God's laws and morals are written onto our minds. Everyone receives those two lights, some receive much more light as they live, and others receive no more. We are judged by how we respond to the light we receive. And that is not a judgement of heaven and hell, but a degree of punishment in hell and reward in heaven. Some get saved with just the original two lights God gave them, there are examples of people never hearing of Jesus or the Bible in lands where He is just not known and they purposely went on journey's that led them to people who could give them more light.

I think people find comfort in saying that god is the answer to all of life’s mysteries. If god had indeed created the universe and man, then why would he need Moses to write down his words? Why would he need Jesus to spread the good word? If there was a being so powerful certainly he wouldn’t need man to perform his business would he?

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by turboeel
Ok. But I have never been involved in one of these threads before and i am shocked at the arrogance of some of these people. I forget who said it but someone said that evolution did not start with a unicellular organism. That just amazes me because scientists have evidence to prove that's where it started.
you show me the evidence that proves we were 'evolved' from single celled organisms, and i'll do anything you want!
as for arrogance... you sound too hypocritical for my taste...
as for pie... what other types do you like, love? I love apple cobbler pie!!!

and technically if we wanted to stay on topic we would be talking about chickens and eggs, and as pie is made with eggs, that's the most on topic statement made in quite a while...

 

[molamola]

Originally Posted by turboeel
More than 65 million years ago, Dinosaours ruled the Earth. They have been and will always be the most successful creatures to have ever lived on this Earth. What other type of creature has lived so long and been more successful?
This doesn't seem like a fair statement, given that we didn't all start out at the same time. This is my completely unscientific opinion, but it seems like humans have been exceedingly successful given our short existance.
Humans are arrogant and clueless. We destroy our Earth with all are pollution, the destruction of habitats and much more. For humans to evolve in the type of society we live in is virtually impossible.
I think it's pretty arrogant to credit humans for the destruction of the earth as well. We are not the only things living on this planet that generate waste, overpopulate, spread disease, cause famine, or destroy habitats. There are a million factors that are completely out of our control. Even if humans were wiped off the planet this afternoon, there would still be fires that lead to pollution, weather that leads to catastrophe, predation and illness that cause the extinction of a species. All of these factors would exist with or without our arrogance. This is just my unscientific opinion, I'm sorry to all of those humans that dislike our species so very much.

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Bah, you are all wrong! There is no god and man didn't evolve from monkeys...we came from the stars and one day our alien brothers will come back for us :hilarious
'did you ever know that you're my hero... you're everything i would like to be... i could fly higher than an eagle, with you as the wind beneath my wings'

 

[ophiura]

I am an evolutionary biologist.
I also believe there is a God.
I believe it would be a sin to ignore the gifts I have been given which include a curiosity about the world around me....and my curiosity leads me to look for patterns and ways to explain them.
Now, how do you define "success" of an organism? The time it has been around? The number of habitats it has colonize, or by the varieties of morphologies? If so, I would disagree that the greatest have been the dinosaurs. Probably insects, plants, maybe nematodes by some definition, etc...the vertebrates, IMO, not necessarily the best candidates at all really...but I am an invertebrate zoologist so that is my bias.

I DO NOT believe that humans can "destroy" the Earth. We are not great enough. We can make it so that we drive ourselves to the point of extinction, and take several tens of thousands of other organisms with us....but the Earth will continue on, just as it has after the extinction of the dinosaurs. To think we can destroy it is extremely anthropomorphic. Humans may simply be a "biotic" cause of a mass extinction as opposed to previous abiotic events (eg asteroids). But really, if we are talking about millions and millions of years, etc, etc, with the dinosaurs than I am surprised that you would mention humans causing Global Warming as surely you've read about massive climate changes over geologic history.
For humans to evolve in the type of society we live in is virtually impossible.
I'm confused...is this an argument for the divine nature of man over other animals? :notsure: From other statements, surely not....but this sure makes it sound like that.
Anyway, is pie crust made with eggs? I use the frozen one's. I guess it is...and if they had pies in the Garden of Eden, then the egg came first because it was a good idea to make pies. The fact that they hatched to chickens was just serendipity. So that's my answer to the initial question

 

[jdragunas]

just FMI, how old are you, turbo?

 

[turboeel]

Originally Posted by hagfish
Actually, according to the Bible and God's own word, God always has existed, always was there, and actually created the universe. God spoke with moses and gave him the words to write. The bible is God's word, not some random person's word. God chose those people to record His word.
Ok but explain how the universe has always been here. That doesn't even make sense. Soemthing can't just always be here. What made God? It doesn't make sense. YOu have no real evidence to prove it except for a book. Like I said earlier, I am going to go buy logical facts and evidence. And yet you still have not acknowledged my argument about the Dinsours. Is it too tough to argue?

 

[ophiura]

You see, this is why we get no where. No where at all in these discussions.
Scientists of course do not "PROVE" or seek to prove anything, so why ask a Creationist to do this if we do not seek to do it ourselves? Logic, yes, but part of logic is consistency.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by turboeel
I wasn't calling you pathetic. I was calling the whole human race pathetic. We do not understand that we are choking this Earth. Eventually its going to get destroyed either through warfare, pollution or Global Warming. I am sorry if you took offense to my overwhelming statements but it bothers me all the time whne people don't look at the scientific evidence and say that there are all these missing links. Well of course there is going to be. its not like scientists are going to find every fossil and every answer. Thats why it's just a "theory" right now. In further time, there will be more evidence to prove it.
this thread still has lots of life in it.
In Darwin's time he said the same thing. As science advances and the fossil record is uncovered people will find endless amounts of missing links. Well, it's been quite some time since he said that and science has improved dramatically since then. We have uncovered hundred's of thousands of fossils and there is no hard evidence of a real missing link. Top scientists admit as much when asked.
Do you realize how much historical evidence there is for the Bible? Ancient manuscripts from all over match up. Multiple accounts of the gospel that match up. Historical facts that match what we find historically. If it bothers you so much that people ignore the "evidence" in science. Why don't you also consider historical evidence when it comes to the Bible? And while the Bible isn't written to discuss science in most cases, the cases where it can be applied are impressive. For instance, the old testament laws given by God include quarantining people when sick or diseased and washing of hands, clothes, just about everything that may have been contaminated by disease, death, other. In the book of Job, Job points out that the earth is suspended in space. The people of that time typically thought the god Atlas was holding the earth on his back, and some thought even more ridiculous things than that.

 

[molamola]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Anyway, is pie crust made with eggs? I use the frozen one's. I guess it is...and if they had pies in the Garden of Eden, then the egg came first because it was a good idea to make pies. The fact that they hatched to chickens was just serendipity. So that's my answer to the initial question

Pie crust is made with shortening, flour, water, and salt. Therefore, the chicken came first because we all know that shortening is made from animal fat. But they couldn't kill the chicken until it laid an egg, otherwise there would be no merengue topping.

 

[jdragunas]

i agree with ophuria
and by looking at turbo's spelling, i'm going to assume he's only in his teens, which makes sense...

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Jmick
I think people find comfort in saying that god is the answer to all of life’s mysteries. If god had indeed created the universe and man, then why would he need Moses to write down his words? Why would he need Jesus to spread the good word? If there was a being so powerful certainly he wouldn’t need man to perform his business would he?
God could have written it himself. But he chooses to do His work through others. He did write the 10 commandments on stone tablets. Would it be any more believable to you if Moses came down from the mountain with a Bible already written out for us?

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by MolaMola
Pie crust is made with shortening, flour, water, and salt. Therefore, the chicken came first because we all know that shortening is made from animal fat. But they couldn't kill the chicken until it laid an egg, otherwise there would be no merengue topping.

mmmm, lemon merengue!!!

 

[turboeel]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
you show me the evidence that proves we were 'evolved' from single celled organisms, and i'll do anything you want!
as for arrogance... you sound too hypocritical for my taste...
as for pie... what other types do you like, love? I love apple cobbler pie!!!

and technically if we wanted to stay on topic we would be talking about chickens and eggs, and as pie is made with eggs, that's the most on topic statement made in quite a while...

Arrogance is the definition of your responce. God is just a comfort. And when Indians saw a bear kill one of their tribal mates they called it a god. when lightning struck Earth, they called it Zeus. Now we call it "God" whats next, the Earth God?

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by turboeel
its not like scientists are going to find every fossil and every answer. Thats why it's just a "theory" right now. In further time, there will be more evidence to prove it.
.

To clarify:
Scientists do not PROVE anything.
A scientific "theory" is as far as it gets. Gravity is a theory. Relatively is a theory. In science, the highest you get is a theory. It is not the same as a "theory" on the streets...meaning it is just temporary or your not sure.
A scientific theory is defined as:
"A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."
A "street definition" of theory is:
"An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture"
Do people see this difference? Evolution is a scientific theory, not a "street" theory. But it will never NEVER be PROVEN as scientists DISPROVE hypotheses, not prove them.
We are using TOTALLY different definitions to argue this and why we're never able to get anywhere.

Its frustrating because I don't think it is good to be so divided on this issue.

I also will add that scientists should not look for fossils to support their observations. This is a violation of the generally accepted scientific methodology called the "hypothetico-deductive method".

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by MolaMola
Pie crust is made with shortening, flour, water, and salt. Therefore, the chicken came first because we all know that shortening is made from animal fat. But they couldn't kill the chicken until it laid an egg, otherwise there would be no merengue topping.

Well, I did mention that when I make pies I buy frozen crust...so I have an excuse for not knowing what is in them.
So the answer is in this.
Which came first?
Crust or merengue?
NOW we are getting somewhere in the chicken and egg question.