whats wrong w/ america?!

[team2jndd]

Originally Posted by Dr. Evil
Whats wrong with America? um were not perfect? So What who is. And i'm so sick of hearing the whining "we dont give enough" Bullcrap we give more than anyone and what do we get for it a slap in the face? and then were told how evil and greedy we are what a crock I for one am all for isolationism. Well not really but I am sick of hearing how much we suck from AT HOME and abroad especially from the people that live here they always get on thier soapbox and talk about how much this country sucks and when they are finished go and buy thier $8.00 cup of frickin coffee screw them. I say whats wrong with America hey we have our faults but I love my country,I love our military thank you God so much for our brave Men and women and thank God for America.
haha you beat me to it by about 3 seconds.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
k, if we are at around 5% unemployement. There are guesstimat around 20 million illegals ( I firmly believe more) where do we find the U.S. citizens. I am not saying Illegal imigration is good, it is a bad thing and causes problems, 25% of our prisons in some states are illegals. But wherte do we find the warm bodies to fill the jobs, it isn't a matter of wages like many say, as a business owner and looking for employees myself it is a matter of having the people to do the work now
if 20 million is about right, then that's approximately 5% of the workforce being illegal. and say probably 1% of that is actually paying tax. so that leaves 4%. don't try to convince me that the economy's hope lies on 4% of the workers, I'm not going to buy that. maybe you'd convince me that rich, greedy business owners depend on that 4% of the workforce to survive. you want to tell me that losing 4% of the total workforce is a bigger threat than having millions of people here costing 3 times more from than system than what they put in?
but if you want to use that argument, let me ask you this....when the real estate market slows to a halt like it's already starting to do, and it's time for construction workers to be laid off, who will it be......the taxing paying workers or the illegal workers that don't cost their boss anything because he doesn't have to follow the law to employ them? my friend is a small contractor who can barely find work because he's undercut by larger construction companies that hire nothing but illegals. so is that a job that Americans won't do? cause last time I checked, he's an American and illegals are driving him into poverty.

 

[sharkboy13]

interesting thread, ive barely checked it since yesterday

 

[seasalt101]

then theirs the aclu man but like previously mentioned no matter what is wrong this is by far the best country to be in, paradise is for the non-sinners...tobin

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
reverse racism is another thing, let a white person try to start a television network called WITE to compete with BET or a whites only scholarship fund or have white history month, i am not racist but they want me to feel guilty about their history, not happening i did not do this, none of us have, i see it now as affirmative action, because of them attempting to force me to feel guilty for my great great great grandfathers life...tobin
Pat Buchanan... is that you???

 

[seasalt101]

if i had more education i would probably jump into politics, but i would probably get shot within 10 years...tobin

 

[beth]

There is a lot of racism still, and a good amt of reverse racism as well. Its a byproduct of this country's willingness to have so many people of various races and beliefs immigrate here, and yes, due to past slavery as well. I feel that things happen for a reason though and while what people experienced due to slavery was horribly inhumane, it still got them here (USA) so that their future generations had a shot of being much more than slaves. Look at many of the African countries now. Can anybody actually feel like they want to raise their children in Africa? And don't think that living in Africa 300 years ago was better. African tribes held slaves as well. In fact, Africans were the slave wholesalers that sold rival tribes-people to colonial Americans!.
There is reverse racism. The attitude should be to move away from racism of any kind, not encourage more of it. And blacks, as well as whites have responsibility to achieve that end. In the end, it can only benefit minority cultures to discourage racist attitudes. Racism will only keep them down. It will only keep all of us down.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Pontius
if 20 million is about right, then that's approximately 5% of the workforce being illegal. and say probably 1% of that is actually paying tax. so that leaves 4%. don't try to convince me that the economy's hope lies on 4% of the workers, I'm not going to buy that. maybe you'd convince me that rich, greedy business owners depend on that 4% of the workforce to survive. you want to tell me that losing 4% of the total workforce is a bigger threat than having millions of people here costing 3 times more from than system than what they put in?
but if you want to use that argument, let me ask you this....when the real estate market slows to a halt like it's already starting to do, and it's time for construction workers to be laid off, who will it be......the taxing paying workers or the illegal workers that don't cost their boss anything because he doesn't have to follow the law to employ them? my friend is a small contractor who can barely find work because he's undercut by larger construction companies that hire nothing but illegals. so is that a job that Americans won't do? cause last time I checked, he's an American and illegals are driving him into poverty.

See this is the problem with the viewpoint of the average citizen. Many of the citizens of this country don't truly understand the hiring process of companies and just assume that every illegal is working for cash and not an actual check. There are very few companies that operate this way. Being a business owner and working in upper management for the past 10 years I understand how the system truly works. Let me break it down.
75% of the ilegals have either a false or stolen SS number. There is no way for a company to call and verify this number matches the citizen using this number as the privacy act prohibits this. The most a company can do is find out if the number ever existed. So a company hires a guy happens to be Mexican. He can work for that company 5 years before SS calls the company and say's "Hey, there is a problem.". SS is slow tracking this stuff. Then, after they get the call they can NOT fire the employee. They have to ask the employee for a new number as theirs is wrong. The employee has 6 months to provide a new number. If by that time they don't give a new number you can release them. If they do give you a new number, it could take another 5 years before the employer finds out this number isn't valid either.So blaming the company is wrong. It isn't the company. (I know I have gone throw this at a previous company)
Then on top of it the company WANTS to pay the employee as they get to write off wages from their company income. Without a wage right off, depending on how big the company is, they will show a much larger profit than they actually made and have to pay taxes themselves. Either way taxes are getting paid by someone....If the company pays cash, they pay more taxes as their profit is bigger, if the Ilegal has a stolen SS number they pay taxes through it without ever getting to reclaim the money at the end of year.
Either way it boils down to the government actually collecting more taxes than receiving Because of illegals. As most illegals even if they were legal wouldn't make enough money to pay into the federal income tax and would actually get a huge return with certain tax breaks available to them. Everyone complains they aren't paying taxes, But since I would say 99% of illegals do not make 35,000 a year they wouldn't pay taxes anyway...People forget how our tax system truly works.
Now, if the illegal owns their own side business for cash....explain to me how this is any different than any other American doing this themselves as I see it all the time in Suburbia.
And if you honestly think a contractor is going to lay off someone because they get paid more than someone else that is dumb. People get laid off first because of work ethis. If You make 10 an hour and the illegal makes 5 It doesn't matter. As long as you do 10 dollars an hour worth of work. Sad to say but most immigrants work hard (at the physical) than most Americans do. We have for the most part become a lazy society. I see it everyday at my part time job. People just don't want to work anymore (physically).
So removing them would effectually take our unemployment rate from 5% to 10%. This is doubling our unemployment and the majority of this would come from the service industry so you drive thru wait and your wait at restaraunts would be longer...and We all know Americans hate to wait for anything.
So removing the not paying taxers and the higher unemployment rate, the only true cost to us is health care.
I believe they should all become legal and have to serve their country in some fashion or another, but Closing immigration and deportation is not a realistic option.

 

[aandwrobert]

invade mexico
reasons
1. mexicans in america send there money to mexico if mexico was part of america they would just send the money to other ameicans.
2. the mexican border with guatemala and elize is much smaller than are current border with mexico and would be easlier to guard
3. stopping of mexican druglords and the cartels of latin america
4. we could all use some more corn

 

[chankanaab]

Originally Posted by Pontius
do you know the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration? ILLEGAL immigration is a MAJOR PROBLEM in this country. I could list a lot of reasons why it's problem. it's apparent though that you are one of the many who wants to view opponents of ILLEGAL immigration as racist but probably can't come up with any good grounds to debate an issue on other than crying "racist racist". I like the "southern mentality" comment, have you ever set foot in a southern state? being in CA, I'd like to know how you propose to know "southern mentality"

Who is crying "racist racist"..that's just you self incriminating yourself as a racist. Looks like you are talking about Mexicans being the only illegal's in this country. I have been to almost every state in this country that's why I live in California.

 

[pontius]

I don't know what industry you're in or what industry you're talking about. the two I'm familiar with most are construction and farming. these are 2 industries where a lot of illegals work, and most of them in these industries DO get paid cash and DON'T pay taxes on it. you seem to be saying that the majority of them pay taxes, and that is an out and out farce. it has become very common around here for illegals to be robbed and/or murdered because it's common knowledge that illegals generally have wads of cash on them because that's how they get paid. if an employer pays a worker over the table, the benefits (social security pay in, insurance, etc) the pay generally comes close to doubling the worker's salary. but when they pay an illegal under the table, what they may or may not end up paying doesn't come anywhere close. so it doesn't matter if they're paying more tax themselves because they're showing a bigger overall profit, because they're still making a huge profit in the difference that is cost to employ a legal citizen or an illegal alien. I also don't know where you got that legal citizens who make less than $35k don't pay taxes, but that's not true either.
I'm saying I understand that the entire illegal population can't be rounded up and sent back. but you can't just sit back and condone, and you have to weed out the ones who are here causing trouble (and there are a lot of them causing trouble). and the border has to be controlled. but let's just say the 5% of the workforce disappeared magically. that's not going to double the unemployment rate. what it's going to do is drive business owners out of business because they no longer get to benefit off what basically amounts to slave labor. so those businesses are out of business, those business owners have to get real jobs or either pay a livable rate to stay in business. and the economy doesn't collapse. there weren't 20 million illegals living here in 1950 and the economy didn't collapse.

 

[chankanaab]

Originally Posted by aandwrobert
invade mexico
reasons
1. mexicans in america send there money to mexico if mexico was part of america they would just send the money to other ameicans.
2. the mexican border with guatemala and elize is much smaller than are current border with mexico and would be easlier to guard
3. stopping of mexican druglords and the cartels of latin america
4. we could all use some more corn
Looks like your very well educated.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Chankanaab
Who is crying "racist racist"..that's just you self incriminating yourself as a racist. Looks like you are talking about Mexicans being the only illegal's in this country. I have been to almost every state in this country that's why I live in California.
that's now 2 posts you've got in this thread and nothing intelligent that you've had to say. no, Mexicans aren't the only illegals. but the MAJORITY of illegals in this country are from Mexico and the majority of illegals come from the Mexican border. now go back to coloring on the transformer movie and let the real adults have an intelligent conversation.

 

[chankanaab]

Originally Posted by Pontius
that's now 2 posts you've got in this thread and nothing intelligent that you've had to say. no, Mexicans aren't the only illegals. but the MAJORITY of illegals in this country are from Mexico and the majority of illegals come from the Mexican border. now go back to coloring on the transformer movie and let the real adults have an intelligent conversation.

There is no point in trying to make a ignorant understand anything intelligent. Coloring has mad me lots of $$$$ and very happy.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Chankanaab

There is no point in trying to make a ignorant understand anything intelligent. Coloring has mad me lots of $$$$ and very happy.
you're right, there's no point in trying to make you understand anything intelligent. since I've brought up several valid points vesus none for you, there's no need for further conversation between us. go back to making lots of $$$$.

 

[chankanaab]

Originally Posted by Pontius
you're right, there's no point in trying to make you understand anything intelligent. since I've brought up several ignorant vesus none for you, there's no need for further conversation between us. go back to making lots of $$$$.

Valid points

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Pontius
I don't know what industry you're in or what industry you're talking about. the two I'm familiar with most are construction and farming. these are 2 industries where a lot of illegals work, and most of them in these industries DO get paid cash and DON'T pay taxes on it. you seem to be saying that the majority of them pay taxes, and that is an out and out farce. it has become very common around here for illegals to be robbed and/or murdered because it's common knowledge that illegals generally have wads of cash on them because that's how they get paid. if an employer pays a worker over the table, the benefits (social security pay in, insurance, etc) the pay generally comes close to doubling the worker's salary. but when they pay an illegal under the table, what they may or may not end up paying doesn't come anywhere close. so it doesn't matter if they're paying more tax themselves because they're showing a bigger overall profit, because they're still making a huge profit in the difference that is cost to employ a legal citizen or an illegal alien. I also don't know where you got that legal citizens who make less than $35k don't pay taxes, but that's not true either.
I'm saying I understand that the entire illegal population can't be rounded up and sent back. but you can't just sit back and condone, and you have to weed out the ones who are here causing trouble (and there are a lot of them causing trouble). and the border has to be controlled. but let's just say the 5% of the workforce disappeared magically. that's not going to double the unemployment rate. what it's going to do is drive business owners out of business because they no longer get to benefit off what basically amounts to slave labor. so those businesses are out of business, those business owners have to get real jobs or either pay a livable rate to stay in business. and the economy doesn't collapse. there weren't 20 million illegals living here in 1950 and the economy didn't collapse.

Looks like I am going to have to simplify this to get my point across. The way the tax code is right now roughly the top 15% payy all the taxes for this country based off their income, this largly comes from corporate buisness and buisness ownerships. The average employee doesn't pay jack crap into the federal income tax reserve. Look up how taxes truly break down and you will understand. This why people file taxes at the end of year. Everyone that makes 35,000 or less a year gets all the money they paid into federal income tax back and sometimes more due to unearned income credit. I know someone that paid 5,000 dollars to federal taxes last year and got back 7500 due to unearned income credit....You can't tell me they pay federal income tax. The tax code doesn't allow it currently
So with that said, how many illegals do you know that make more than 35,000 a year. And just to clarify my point Social security is not a tax, it is government set up retirement program.
Furthermore, If corporations or businesses pay cash instead of legally documented payroll, the cash they hand out under the table is still on their books as profit and income taken in.. At the end of the year when the business files their taxes they are then in turn taxed on this money taken in, so actually the illegals are being taxed it is just the business paying out the tax in name than the actual employee.....Unless they can do something illegal and hide the money some other way (which they will do anyway with or without illegals if they follow this practice).
As for the healthcare issue, if the were legal citizens, and hired on documentation, they could still wave their right to sign up for health insurance (because most companies have the employee pay a portion of the coverage) and still get medicare or medicaid (forget what it is called) and still take from a government slush fund....
My basic point is all the complaints about Taxes and strain on the system are unfounded and will not be corrected. My biggest concern is we don't know who is here with evil intent and where these people are. It is a national security risk more so than a Political/economic/tax paying issue.

 

[chankanaab]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Looks like I am going to have to simplify this to get my point across. The way the tax code is right now roughly the top 15% payy all the taxes for this country based off their income, this largly comes from corporate buisness and buisness ownerships. The average employee doesn't pay jack crap into the federal income tax reserve. Look up how taxes truly break down and you will understand. This why people file taxes at the end of year. Everyone that makes 35,000 or less a year gets all the money they paid into federal income tax back and sometimes more due to unearned income credit. I know someone that paid 5,000 dollars to federal taxes last year and got back 7500 due to unearned income credit....You can't tell me they pay federal income tax. The tax code doesn't allow it currently
So with that said, how many illegals do you know that make more than 35,000 a year. And just to clarify my point Social security is not a tax, it is government set up retirement program.
Furthermore, If corporations or businesses pay cash instead of legally documented payroll, the cash they hand out under the table is still on their books as profit and income taken in.. At the end of the year when the business files their taxes they are then in turn taxed on this money taken in, so actually the illegals are being taxed it is just the business paying out the tax in name than the actual employee.....Unless they can do something illegal and hide the money some other way (which they will do anyway with or without illegals if they follow this practice).
As for the healthcare issue, if the were legal citizens, and hired on documentation, they could still wave their right to sign up for health insurance (because most companies have the employee pay a portion of the coverage) and still get medicare or medicaid (forget what it is called) and still take from a government slush fund....
My basic point is all the complaints about Taxes and strain on the system are unfounded and will not be corrected. My biggest concern is we don't know who is here with evil intent and where these people are. It is a national security risk more so than a Political/economic/tax paying issue.
Now this is a intelligent person. Thank you.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Looks like I am going to have to simplify this to get my point across. The way the tax code is right now roughly the top 15% payy all the taxes for this country based off their income, this largly comes from corporate buisness and buisness ownerships. The average employee doesn't pay jack crap into the federal income tax reserve. Look up how taxes truly break down and you will understand. This why people file taxes at the end of year. Everyone that makes 35,000 or less a year gets all the money they paid into federal income tax back and sometimes more due to unearned income credit. I know someone that paid 5,000 dollars to federal taxes last year and got back 7500 due to unearned income credit....You can't tell me they pay federal income tax. The tax code doesn't allow it currently
So with that said, how many illegals do you know that make more than 35,000 a year. And just to clarify my point Social security is not a tax, it is government set up retirement program.
Furthermore, If corporations or businesses pay cash instead of legally documented payroll, the cash they hand out under the table is still on their books as profit and income taken in.. At the end of the year when the business files their taxes they are then in turn taxed on this money taken in, so actually the illegals are being taxed it is just the business paying out the tax in name than the actual employee.....Unless they can do something illegal and hide the money some other way (which they will do anyway with or without illegals if they follow this practice).
As for the healthcare issue, if the were legal citizens, and hired on documentation, they could still wave their right to sign up for health insurance (because most companies have the employee pay a portion of the coverage) and still get medicare or medicaid (forget what it is called) and still take from a government slush fund....
My basic point is all the complaints about Taxes and strain on the system are unfounded and will not be corrected. My biggest concern is we don't know who is here with evil intent and where these people are. It is a national security risk more so than a Political/economic/tax paying issue.
the top 15% do not pay all the taxes and others don't get everything they paid back, both of those claims are false. my wife and I are nowhere close to being in the top 15% and we are lucky if we get back 20% of what we pay in taxes, and that includes a dependant child and write offs like

[hr]
interest, school loan interest, etc. you are right that the top 15% pay MORE (because they make more) and there are also lots of tax benefits and write offs for them as well. I've never seen a multi-millionaire go broke because of the tax that they pay.
to your second point, it would be impossible to know how many illegals make $35k a year or more because there's no way of knowing how much most illegals make because it's under the table, which is what I've been claiming all along.
as for the third point, your final sentence said it all...."unless they can do something illegal and hide the money another way". exactly. do you think it's some kind of coincidence that the industries that illegals work in the most also happen to be the industries where it's easiest to write off fictitional "losses"......like farming and construction. in farming, you could write off every penny you pay under the table as a loss because no IRS agent is going to come to your farm and find out if half your crop was destroyed or not. there are plenty of ways for business owners to make up for the cash they pay out to illegals.
I believe Medicaid is based on ability and pay. if they were legal workers, they couldn't just refuse health insurance and get it for free, that's not how it works. it's based on what you make. if they were LEGAL, they would be making MORE money and therefore many of them WOULDN'T be getting healthcare at the taxpayers' expense. granted, many still would be. but they would be costing the system 3 times more than they put in, which is what they're doing currently.
illegal immigration is a national security risk AND an economic/tax paying issue. if you want to assume otherwise, you're wrong. and "evil intent" depends on your definition of what "evil intent" is. their first act in the country, crossing the border, is illegal. so they obviously have no problem snubbing their noses at the law of this country. one could say that's "evil intent". it's a slap in the face of the working class and to the millions who have chosen to immigrate here legally.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
The way the tax code is right now roughly the top 15% payy all the taxes for this country based off their income, this largly comes from corporate buisness and buisness ownerships. .... You can't tell me they pay federal income tax.
I just wanted to point out something I see wrong with this statement.
Corporations do not pay taxes, people do. Indirectly consumers are paying these taxes, not corporations.