What's wrong with the church today?

[jennythebugg]

years ago my parents taught the childrens church at a very large baptist church and the pastor pulled all the teachers in to have a meeting and told them they werent getting enough tithes and offering from the childrens department and gave them buckets and a scale and told them to make a game out of it , my dad told him jesus never charged the children and my parents as well as almost the entire childrens department left that day

 

[sickboy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2769556
To quote God:
'The wages of sin is death..." as Mr. Marx is now aware.
Please tell me when god has ever said anything. All holy books were written by man. The Jewish Tanakh/Old Testement was written by people who talked to god (we stick these people in looney bins now), the New Testement was written well after Jesus died and was passed down orally (not the most reliable source), and the Koran is the same thing as the Tanakh/Old Testement- written by someone who spoke to god. Seems to me this is a bunch of people talking, not god.
Sorry, that is a major pet peeve of mine. But, I am quasi religious. I was raised catholic, quit going, but ended up going back when it was time to get married. I believe religion does a lot of good in some people's lives, like when an alcoholic uses religion to quit drinking, but is nothing but a social parade for others. It is a helpful tool for dealing with the fact that we will all die, and gives a meaning to life so that we should keep bettering ourselves and not give in to despair.
Also, I don't know the exact passage, but the (christian) bible has a phrase to the effect: All who believe will be saved. So, this pretty much negates the belief that you must go to church ever sunday to reach the after life. (My parents hate it when I bring that up). Anyway, I've probably said too much already, but I really can't help myself when the religious discussion starts.

 

[sickboy]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2769699
Tithing is a completely open door. Everyone in the congregation knows how much money we have and where it's going. Furthermore, they can even specify where they want their money to go, whether it be to children's groups or student ministries, or hospice care, they should be able to decide where and how their money is being spent. Most importantly, tithing should NEVER be a requirement. Originally, Tithing came into play under Judaic Law as a required 10% of your income... this was to keep the preists fed and the grounds up-kept. When the early church began, Jesus never required any percentage from anyone, but people would give anyway... sometimes much more than 10%... and the early church gave the money to those who were in need. I think that's how church money should be spent.
And now some churches keep track of how much each member has given and brings it up to the member if they "haven't given enough." My mom used to do this for our church and I never understood what business it was of theirs.
Also, Tithing also had one more purpose. The farmers were instructed to leave so many rows of crop to lay fallow so that the poor could come harvest it.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769746
Please tell me when god has ever said anything. All holy books were written by man. The Jewish Tanakh/Old Testement was written by people who talked to god (we stick these people in looney bins now), the New Testement was written well after Jesus died and was passed down orally (not the most reliable source), and the Koran is the same thing as the Tanakh/Old Testement- written by someone who spoke to god. Seems to me this is a bunch of people talking, not god.
Sorry, that is a major pet peeve of mine. But, I am quasi religious. I was raised catholic, quit going, but ended up going back when it was time to get married. I believe religion does a lot of good in some people's lives, like when an alcoholic uses religion to quit drinking, but is nothing but a social parade for others. It is a helpful tool for dealing with the fact that we will all die, and gives a meaning to life so that we should keep bettering ourselves and not give in to despair.
Also, I don't know the exact passage, but the (christian) bible has a phrase to the effect: All who believe will be saved. So, this pretty much negates the belief that you must go to church ever sunday to reach the after life. (My parents hate it when I bring that up). Anyway, I've probably said too much already, but I really can't help myself when the religious discussion starts.
lol, if you are trying to balance catholic dogma with scriptural backing. Good luck it aint gonna happen.
The thing, quote by god, the whole point of the bible, from a christian perspective is that it was divinely inspired. They believe, that they direct from god were inspired to write the bible. And hence is infallible.

 

[sickboy]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2769760
lol, if you are trying to balance catholic dogma with scriptural backing. Good luck it aint gonna happen.
The thing, quote by god, the whole point of the bible, from a christian perspective is that it was divinely inspired. They believe, that they direct from god were inspired to write the bible. And hence is infallible.
Yeah, but catholics think the pope is infallible too, but I don't put much stock in that.

 

[kingsmith]

Everyone who has not seen or heard the George Carlin sketch on Religion should

It points out the Brutally obvious truths

 

[kingsmith]

I sell stereos THANK YOU SATAN

nOW IF SOME ONE CAN TELL ME WHAT THIS IS FROM i WILL BE IMPRESSED

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769762
Yeah, but catholics think the pope is infallible too, but I don't put much stock in that.
hence the catholic dogma thing.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769750
And now some churches keep track of how much each member has given and brings it up to the member if they "haven't given enough." My mom used to do this for our church and I never understood what business it was of theirs.
Also, Tithing also had one more purpose. The farmers were instructed to leave so many rows of crop to lay fallow so that the poor could come harvest it.
I agree completely. I think the giving itself should be totally anonymous, unless the people want a tax write-off, in which case we track it... but it should NEVER be invasive.
However, I do know that in previous churches I've worked at, certain members of the congregation would "pledge" a certain weekly amount for the year, and when they would not follow that pledge, the church would remind them of what they pledged and how far behind they are. I think the whole pledge idea is a terrible one though... it's like a self-decided obligatory bill to be paid to the church. Who would want to do something like that these days? I know it's original purpose was for the church to plan out a budget based upon the amount of agreed upon pledges, but that's way too corporate for me.
In the case of money, I want to "See what God provides" instead of forcing members of the congregation to give so they can keep their expenses in check.

 

[jeanheckle]

Here's a question. Should Bible interpretation change with the times? If the Bible says sleeping with someone prior to marriage is a sin, the fact that it's now common place and acceptable by main stream religion, or at least they turn an eye away from the fact that it's happening, is that religion wrong or right. They aren't following literal Bible principle.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2769775
I agree completely. I think the giving itself should be totally anonymous, unless the people want a tax write-off, in which case we track it... but it should NEVER be invasive.
However, I do know that in previous churches I've worked at, certain members of the congregation would "pledge" a certain weekly amount for the year, and when they would not follow that pledge, the church would remind them of what they pledged and how far behind they are. I think the whole pledge idea is a terrible one though... it's like a self-decided obligatory bill to be paid to the church. Who would want to do something like that these days? I know it's original purpose was for the church to plan out a budget based upon the amount of agreed upon pledges, but that's way too corporate for me.
In the case of money, I want to "See what God provides" instead of forcing members of the congregation to give so they can keep their expenses in check.
Well, you have to do something as far as budgeting. As a church you do have expenses just keeping the doors open. All this stuff costs money. I'm not justifying some of their actions. I've seen all kinds of crap pulled. But then again I've also seen churches ministeries fail because of lack of money.

 

[kazara]

The Church my wife has us go to is like a big social event. Bunch of old people with nothing to do. If it wasnt for her I would not be going but i do it for her because I love her. I have no problem with what people believe in...just dont preach your beliefs to me.
Peace

 

[reefraff]

Religion was created to make people fear going to hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there -Gary Busey

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2769784
Well, you have to do something as far as budgeting. As a church you do have expenses just keeping the doors open. All this stuff costs money. I'm not justifying some of their actions. I've seen all kinds of crap pulled. But then again I've also seen churches ministeries fail because of lack of money.
If anything, that's why you save as a church. I would much rather see what the congregation gives to us instead of forcing them to pay a monthly pledge. As for bills being paid, maybe we could post bills (power, water, rent?) on a bulletin board for others to pay if the church can't. We're talking about a totally new concept in what church is. If people come and are fed, and have community, then they should all individually feel responsible for it's bills... not responsibility by requirement though, but by choice. My hope is to create a church that can become completely organic, taking care of each other when in need. We should have congregational meetings where people can help make decisions on what the church should do. Of course, there would be a leadership, but not to steer the ship so much as to research and provide options for the direction of the church, and the congregation should ultimately decide based upon a majority vote. This could also be a perfect recipe for disaster... another reason why I'm running all these ideas by you guys

 

[hlcroghan]

Unfortunately, all too often, the bible is taken literally when it could very well be taken figuratively as well.
I have studied so many religions over the years. I am completely nondenominational now and I hate church with a passion. I always felt outcasted as a child. I was raised Christian and I still believe in God. My ex was Muslim. He was raised Southern Baptist and converted. So naturally I studied that. I wrote a term paper for college on why the war between the Christians and Muslims continues after so many years. I don't claim to be an expert at all, but one of the problems I have with religions and church in general is that it is very cliquish, really the biggest ones in the world, lol. I mean, if you are not Christian you can't be part of this group and if you are Muslim but you choose to eat pork you are outcast. Or you didn't practice Ramadan this year, you are a bad Muslim, on and on.
I think that best one can hope for is to the best you can, to the best of your moral capacity. Raise your children to the best of your ability. Contribute your life to good things. Make sure that you are not just a waste of skin on the earth. I really dislike when I hear people say that those who don't give their sins to Jesus are going to hell. What about the man in Africa who has never even heard of Jesus or who is raised differently??? He may be a wonderful person that always goes out of his way to do good things. I can't believe a God that would create such a beautiful universe would possibly make a person like that suffer. I really like following the simple addage of do no harm either by word or deed if you can help it. It is a bit wiccan in nature but if everyone did that everything would be so much simpler.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2769797
If anything, that's why you save as a church. I would much rather see what the congregation gives to us instead of forcing them to pay a monthly pledge. As for bills being paid, maybe we could post bills (power, water, rent?) on a bulletin board for others to pay if the church can't. We're talking about a totally new concept in what church is. If people come and are fed, and have community, then they should all individually feel responsible for it's bills... not responsibility by requirement though, but by choice. My hope is to create a church that can become completely organic, taking care of each other when in need. We should have congregational meetings where people can help make decisions on what the church should do. Of course, there would be a leadership, but not to steer the ship so much as to research and provide options for the direction of the church, and the congregation should ultimately decide based upon a majority vote. This could also be a perfect recipe for disaster... another reason why I'm running all these ideas by you guys

Sure, I don't mind a pledge, I support friends who are missionaries on a monthly basis. I actually have an automatic draft out of my account. You have said you'd do something, then turning around and not doing that is lousy of a person.
But yeah, there is something to be said for saving. I'm a big fan of a debt free church.
As your people steer the church, I don't think that actually works. Because as a whole, people aren't mature enough to handle opposing thought. If you end up having a larger group of decision makers, I think that will only breed animosity between the factions. (case 1st baptists and 2nd bapists) People who look to a leader, and follow them, they'll all be heading the same direction.
I'm not against a small board, to use as a balance to make sure the leader isn't going off the deep end. And to provide input and bouce off ideas ect. But you'll never ever make everyone happy. And trying to will only tick off everyone.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by jeanheckle
http:///forum/post/2769780
Here's a question. Should Bible interpretation change with the times? If the Bible says sleeping with someone prior to marriage is a sin, the fact that it's now common place and acceptable by main stream religion, or at least they turn an eye away from the fact that it's happening, is that religion wrong or right. They aren't following literal Bible principle.
s-e-x outside of marriage was commonplace in the bible days too. There are numerous stories about it in the bible - Samaritan woman, Sodom and Gomorrah, David and Bathsheba... Sexual infidelity of all kinds is nothing new to History or society. The only difference is that it's much more out in the open now.
I don't know of any bible-based religion that is accepting of --- outside of marriage. However, you are right in saying that a lot of churches turn a blind eye to it. Some look at sexual immorality in culture as a sign of the last days before the rapture. Kinda scary to think about. I really hate talking about that stuff.
Also, From a slightly cliche personal perspective: love the person, hate the sin. Who am I to condemn someone because of their sin? I'm a sinner too (and a big one at that), so who am I to judge? Pastors get this "Holier-than-thou" persective and think they can condemn whoever they want - another reason why I am so disgusted with the church. People white wash themselves and think they're perfect, but becoming a Christian should mean that you are accepting that you're not perfect. What hyocritical people we have for leaders. Geez.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2769814
But you'll never ever make everyone happy. And trying to will only tick off everyone.
+1 Agreed. Tried that at my last church. It was hell. Can I say that? hell inside a church? It's probably more common than one would think.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2769822
+1 Agreed. Tried that at my last church. It was hell. Can I say that? hell inside a church? It's probably more common than one would think.
That is why, if I was to pastor, I'd do what I felt was the right thing to do, make sure, I have some good counsil on the side, wife, parents, people I trust. And hopefully the people would be attracted to that.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2769556
To quote God:
'The wages of sin is death..." as Mr. Marx is now aware.
Lol, did the all mighty whisper that in your ear while you were deep in prayer

Getting back to reality, what quote is Marx most known for? Oh ya, something about religion being the opiate of the masses?