What's wrong with the church today?

[kingsmith]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2769838
Lol, did the all mighty whisper that in your ear while you were deep in prayer

Getting back to reality, what quote is Marx most known for? Oh ya, something about religion being the opiate of the masses?
Yup most people don't want to except there is no one there to hold their hand and carry them in times of need, no pearly whites waiting to embrace you because you asked for forgiveness in the end Ignorance is bliss religion is a safety net and God well he is dead but suprisingly short

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/2769848
Yup most people don't want to except there is no one there to hold their hand and carry them in times of need, no pearly whites waiting to embrace you because you asked for forgiveness in the end Ignorance is bliss religion is a safety net and God well he is dead but suprisingly short

How easy is life when you are able to blame everything bad on the will of god or his/her devine plan? Or if you do something bad you can just ask god for its forgiveness and wash you hands clean of it.

 

[kingsmith]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2769865
How easy is life when you are able to blame everything bad on the will of god or his/her devine plan? Or if you do something bad you can just ask god for its forgiveness and wash you hands clean of it.
Tell it Like it is Brother

 

[robbin]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769746
Please tell me when god has ever said anything. All holy books were written by man. The Jewish Tanakh/Old Testement was written by people who talked to god (we stick these people in looney bins now), the New Testement was written well after Jesus died and was passed down orally (not the most reliable source), and the Koran is the same thing as the Tanakh/Old Testement- written by someone who spoke to god. Seems to me this is a bunch of people talking, not god.
Sorry, that is a major pet peeve of mine. But, I am quasi religious. I was raised catholic, quit going, but ended up going back when it was time to get married. I believe religion does a lot of good in some people's lives, like when an alcoholic uses religion to quit drinking, but is nothing but a social parade for others. It is a helpful tool for dealing with the fact that we will all die, and gives a meaning to life so that we should keep bettering ourselves and not give in to despair.
Also, I don't know the exact passage, but the (christian) bible has a phrase to the effect: All who believe will be saved. So, this pretty much negates the belief that you must go to church ever sunday to reach the after life. (My parents hate it when I bring that up). Anyway, I've probably said too much already, but I really can't help myself when the religious discussion starts.
God you said that so well!

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769746
Please tell me when god has ever said anything. All holy books were written by man. The Jewish Tanakh/Old Testement was written by people who talked to god (we stick these people in looney bins now), the New Testement was written well after Jesus died and was passed down orally (not the most reliable source), and the Koran is the same thing as the Tanakh/Old Testement- written by someone who spoke to god. Seems to me this is a bunch of people talking, not god.
You'll find that a lot of the people in biblical days were illiterate... some of them being very high in power. In addition, the only written documents of the time were the Torah, along with other chapters we now consider today to be the "Old Testament" in the bible. Most jewish boys would go to school to study and memorize every word in the Torah, and only the best of the best were considered to be apprentices to Rabbi's. Everyone else chose a trade. Anyway, because the only writings were sacred, most people had to tell stories to each other, because writing was anything but commonplace. The people of the time kept accuracy of stories as well as we make copies of books today... and it had to be that way for the very reason that there was no other way of passing on the history, really.
Basically, these guys were wicked good at playing the "telephone" game. Today, we all suck at it because we don't value verbal history as much - and why should we? We have it all written down.
Regardless, it all comes down to whether you believe some of the scriptures were God-breathed or not. At the end of the day, most of the bible is an accumulation of these stories, so whether God wrote it or Moses wrote it or Peter, Paul and Mary wrote it (

) these stories are true... and it's being proven more and more... all the time... Also, archaeologists don't take history books when they want to explore the middle-east - they take the bible because of it's surprising accuracy. Something has to be said about that.
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2769746
Sorry, that is a major pet peeve of mine. But, I am quasi religious. I was raised catholic, quit going, but ended up going back when it was time to get married. I believe religion does a lot of good in some people's lives, like when an alcoholic uses religion to quit drinking, but is nothing but a social parade for others. It is a helpful tool for dealing with the fact that we will all die, and gives a meaning to life so that we should keep bettering ourselves and not give in to despair.
Also, I don't know the exact passage, but the (christian) bible has a phrase to the effect: All who believe will be saved. So, this pretty much negates the belief that you must go to church ever sunday to reach the after life. (My parents hate it when I bring that up). Anyway, I've probably said too much already, but I really can't help myself when the religious discussion starts.
Dude, totally agree that it's a social event... in some cases it's a meat market. That's what sucks so bad about the church today... it's all rituals and such... designed to forcibly make you "good"

I also agree with you that once you accept the faith, there's no sin big enough for you to lose your salvation... except for one way - Biblically, you can reverse it by denying there is a God and renouncing your faith.
Church should be a place for people who are interested, people who want to further their understanding of the Bible and such, and for people who want to be a part of a community of like-mind. The church should never be about rituals, robes, and reprimand.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2769804
I really dislike when I hear people say that those who don't give their sins to Jesus are going to hell. What about the man in Africa who has never even heard of Jesus or who is raised differently??? He may be a wonderful person that always goes out of his way to do good things. I can't believe a God that would create such a beautiful universe would possibly make a person like that suffer. I really like following the simple addage of do no harm either by word or deed if you can help it. It is a bit wiccan in nature but if everyone did that everything would be so much simpler.
From what I understand things to be, if you've never heard the gospel, you will go to heaven. Think of all the children that die, and they've never heard the gospel. They're going to heaven.
Long story short, You need to choose whether you believe or not... if you decide that it's all a joke and say

[hr]
it, then I don't really know what will happen... and I'm not God so I can't say whether or not that person is going to hell. If you do take that step of faith, the bible says you'll go to heaven.
But if you've never even been given the chance to choose, it doesn't mean you'll get an automatic go-to-hell card.... actually it means you'll get an automatic go-to-heaven card. And yes, that includes all the african tribes.

 

[jeanheckle]

The whole meaning of faith is believing in something that cannot be proved.
There are no religions today that are not steeped with paganism. If you doubt that look at the origin of all the holidays celebrated. In the 3rd century Constantine wanted to make Christianity more palpable for the massea so he incorporated pagan customs into christian celebrations. Google the origin of Christmas. What a lovely way to celebrate the birth of our saviour. Then there's Easter which was originally the fesival of the fertility goddes, that's why there are all those cute little baby chicks and rabbitts.
I was raised protestant and at this time I don't participate with any orginized religion. I studied many religions including eastern philosophies, I have only found one religion that comes somewhat close to what God intended.
II. How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?
A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

 

[yearofthenick]

wow... interesting. I didn't know that. So strange how our holidays come into play.
Which religion have you found to come the closest to what God intended? And are we talking about NT or OT standards?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by jeanheckle
http:///forum/post/2770162
I was raised protestant and at this time I don't participate with any orginized religion. I studied many religions including eastern philosophies, I have only found one religion that comes somewhat close to what God intended.
Please expand, I'm now really curious.

 

[jeanheckle]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2770174
wow... interesting. I didn't know that. So strange how our holidays come into play.
Which religion have you found to come the closest to what God intended? And are we talking about NT or OT standards?
I think the bible is a whole book, the NT is more relevant to today, but the things written in the OT prove the events of the NT.
As far as who I believe comes closest to what the scriptures intended us to do and who doesn't have the hypocracy of main stream religion it's Jehovah's Witnesses. If when they come to your door you actually listened to them instead of closing the door you might be surprised. This is my personal opinion, but the holiday thing really got to me. You can't say you're serving G-d and at the same time be celebrating a holiday rooted in everything Christ stood against, even if you wrap it up in a cute little bow and say that isn't what you are doing when you celebrate the holiday.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by jeanheckle
http:///forum/post/2770195
I think the bible is a whole book, the NT is more relevant to today, but the things written in the OT prove the events of the NT.
As far as who I believe comes closest to what the scriptures intended us to do and who doesn't have the hypocracy of main stream religion it's Jehovah's Witnesses. If when they come to your door you actually listened to them instead of closing the door you might be surprised. This is my personal opinion, but the holiday thing really got to me. You can't say you're serving G-d and at the same time be celebrating a holiday rooted in everything Christ stood against, even if you wrap it up in a cute little bow and say that isn't what you are doing when you celebrate the holiday.
But today what does christmas represent? It isn't the pagan practice whatever it was.

So to me although the date intentionally coincides with that pagan ritual. It doesn't represent that pagan holiday any longer. So it really doesn't bother me.
How do you justify their salvation doctrine with passages in the NT? You know the 144,000? Saved by works ect? (I'm by no means attacking you, just curious since I've never heard someone argue scripturally supporting these beliefs.)

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by jeanheckle
http:///forum/post/2770195
As far as who I believe comes closest to what the scriptures intended us to do and who doesn't have the hypocracy of main stream religion it's Jehovah's Witnesses..
As a JW, how will you make it into the 144,000 people who will co-rule with Christ, reigning over humanity during the "millennial reign"...? That sounds a bit sketchy. The bible says nothing about co-reigning with Christ. The bible talks about God having the holy spirit and jesus at each side, but the bible never says anything about co-reigning with 144k people over all humanity... that would be a loud conference room
Also, JW's believe there is no hell... it clearly states many many times in the bible that there IS a hell.
I could go on and on. Here's a Wiki History on JW's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses
You are right though... they don't celebrate mainstream holidays. Personally, I think the points i just mentioned are a little more important than abstaining from holidays though... that can be a personal choice, but these issues are fundamentally contradictory to the bible.
Also keep in mind that holidays change over time... and where it was once an act of paganism, today it's "evolved" to become a very positive celebration. I'd rather do something positive on a day where something negative was once practiced. If we were doing pagan things today, like lawless behavior, then I would have no support.
I believe what the bible says. I do not want to tie myself to any particular religion or denomination... I think there are a lot of people like me who feel that way... people who simply believe that Jesus was and is the Christ. The devil is in the details. God calls us to have faith like children... it's not hard to interpret what the bible says, but we've made it so hard because we read what we WANT to believe... not necessarily truth. A lot of scripture is taken out of context... like the passage that talks about how women should ALWAYS keep their heads covered in the temple, and wear absolutely no jewelry. That was contextual and a societal standard at the time, also referenced in the OT which means its more for historic purposes.
On the other hand, it talks about what is moral and immoral in the NT and that's something I would gravitate toward following more carefully.
If anyone wants to hear some crazy stuff, read Deuteronomy... it's freakin weird. And historical!

 

[socal57che]

YOTN, you have PM...

 

[sickboy]

Why is pagan behavior "lawless"? Most of their holidays were timed to changing seasons. Pagans try to be in tune with nature, and celebrate the gods throughout the year...very similar to native american religions. I'm glad someone brought this point up...almost all christian holidays are celebrated on pagan holidays in order to aid assimilation to the "new" religion.
Personally I think the world was better off with polytheistic religions. If you already have more than one god, its no problem to add your neighbors god to the mix. But with monotheistic religions, there is only one god, and its "My God." Hence arguments, wars, etc ensue.

 

[hlcroghan]

I do believe in God but I differ when it comes to the Jesus beliefs. I do not believe that he was the son of God but rather that he is like everyone else as a "child" of God. There were millions of people crucified in the same manner that he was. I do follow the historical beliefs that he was a good person and a prophet but I don't believe that he died so everyone's sins could be forgiven. I have more of a theory that the church at the time turned him into a martyr. Prior to that there was no way to escape from sins and most people were put to death. It kind of gave people a way out or "get out of jail free card" if you will. Just my personal theory. It is not a popular belief and I have gotten into a ton of arguements about it. I don't believe that he was immaculately conceived or that he was perfect. There is quite a bit of info in other religions of things that he did that were wrong, such as blaspheming his own mother, drinking, fornicating outside of marriage, etc. But how could millions of people follow a flawed person? Wouldn't work very well. The same way the church is now with propaganda is prolly how they were then. There are a ton of arguments against this like the miracles he performed and so on but I haven't found one that changed my mind yet.

 

[jeanheckle]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2770229
But today what does christmas represent? It isn't the pagan practice whatever it was.

So to me although the date intentionally coincides with that pagan ritual. It doesn't represent that pagan holiday any longer. So it really doesn't bother me.
How do you justify their salvation doctrine with passages in the NT? You know the 144,000? Saved by works ect? (I'm by no means attacking you, just curious since I've never heard someone argue scripturally supporting these beliefs.)
I don't see any discussion as critiscism. As I said I am not practicing any religion. As far as holidays, even though you don't view them as pagan, how does God view them.
The book of revelation does speak of a ruling class in heaven who would rule over the earth which would be returned to a paradise. If for arguments sake God is perfect and his original plan for the earth was to be a paradise, would he allow human sin to interfere with his purpose.
I'm not saying any one should become one of JW's, I'm just saying that perhaps instead of always closing the door on them, tell them your doubts and see how they answer.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2770241
Why is pagan behavior "lawless"? Most of their holidays were timed to changing seasons. Pagans try to be in tune with nature, and celebrate the gods throughout the year...very similar to native american religions. I'm glad someone brought this point up...almost all christian holidays are celebrated on pagan holidays in order to aid assimilation to the "new" religion.
Sorry, I didn't mean to connect pagans to lawlessness. However, I did state something like that pagan holdiays of the time were lawless. It goes along with what Jeanheckel said about the origin of holdays.
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2770241
Personally I think the world was better off with polytheistic religions. If you already have more than one god, its no problem to add your neighbors god to the mix. But with monotheistic religions, there is only one god, and its "My God." Hence arguments, wars, etc ensue.
interesting idea... One God causes wars and arguments... it isn't the hateful, selfish, unaccepting behavior in people? Because I think that's what causes arguments and war. Don't be mad at God, be mad at the people who abuse the name of God. I have nothing against polytheistic beliefs... who am I to judge? Example: I wear jeans (One God) and someone else wear shorts (polytheism)... Who am I to hate that person just because he's different?

 

[bigarn]

I'm just saying that perhaps instead of always closing the door on them, tell them your doubts and see how they answer.
And be sure you have a lot of free time.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by jeanheckle
http:///forum/post/2770251
I'm not saying any one should become one of JW's, I'm just saying that perhaps instead of always closing the door on them, tell them your doubts and see how they answer.
I love that idea! I think though that every JW that's come to my door has become fearful of me right off the bat. Normally what happens is they give me a copy of the watch tower and go on their merry way... Almost like they know I'm going to give them a spiritual whoopin' or something.

 

[jeanheckle]

The bible says nothing about co-reigning with Christ. The bible talks about God having the holy spirit and jesus at each side, but the bible never says anything about co-reigning with 144k people over all humanity... that would be a loud conference room
The book of Rev absolutely speaks about Jesus having co-rulers. I don't think of ever seen the bible stating the holy spirit sitting next to God, but does mention Jesus at his right hand.
Also, JW's believe there is no hell... it clearly states many many times in the bible that there IS a hell.
The Bible also state Jesus was in Hell for 3 days.