While we are at it, let's close all our Eurpean military bases.

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3141476
I have listened to him before... I have also, listened to Howard Stern before.
I choose not to listen to Either one of them, too. They are in the same category, shock and out for their own financial gain regardless of any kind of personal responsibility................. Neither one are patriots, but peddlers of evil and self indulgent.
Sounds like you are talking about the Kennedy clan now.

Of course they are in it for the money. Anyone that doesn't get that is an idiot. I have no doubt that Limbaugh believes most of what he pushes but I don't think for a second he does what he does for love of country although I am sure he does love it.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3141543
he does for love of country although I am sure he does love it.
Probably so, but doesn’t let that get in the way of the all mighty dollar though.
Is you is or is you aint my constituent?

 

[usirchchris]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3140877
The difference between me and you is I look at things logically, and look at the entire vision of what's being presented in the various debates on Obama's policies. You on the other hand appear to rely specifically on what some 'TV sensationalist' tells you.
Multi quote? You apparently spend WAY too much time on forum sites.
I have never seen the Beck show nor have I heard him speak, and I can assure you Beck was not within a thousand miles of either rally I attended...Was it not you that told me to watch more news and read more headlines, and you that pulled a bunch of sensational pictures?...I can multi quote it for you. I have told you more than a few times not to allow the sensational media to form your opinions...given this why would I? In fact who would I look to...the Obama machine has them on lockdown. This is not logical, nor is your assumption as to how I derive my opinions. The big difference between you and I in regards Obama's politics has nothing to do with logic or the lack there of, but rather your willingness to let the government take over and or make decisions in the private sector, and my preference that they not. If you do indeed look at the entire vision...With Obama's medical plan...what do you think will ultimately happen to the private sector? My contention is that it will eventually dissolve leaving us with 1 option which really is no option. Am I being paranoid?
Multi quote

You are already doing it there slick...I was just trying to show you how to do it easier. You give me too much credit...all you have to do is click 1 button.

Technology!!

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141478
I didn't say healthcare is more important, but the conservatives want to use it as the excuse for what's wrong with the economy. Don't waste money on healthcare for the people who can't afford it. Put all that spare cash in more pork-filled bills - Bridge To Nowhere, $50 million highway overpass to go over a Farm To Market Road outside a piddly town of 50,000 (this one is in Texas), few million for a monument for some dead or retired Congressman, etc. Tell that to the little girl who doesn't have money to buy her fat-ladened Happy Meal while she's playing a game on her $300 PSP and listening to music on her $400 Iphone.
Yes you did. You said if we ignore healthcare again more people will die. I took that to mean, as you implied, that it has to be done now. Rather than to use that wasteful spending to strengthen the country as a whole for the long haul...rather than use that wasteful spending to help create jobs you want healthcare.
Do me a favor and stop using party labels and lines. YOU and I have been holding this debate with each other...so what other people want to do or say is irrelevant. Besides, I have not seen one person in washington call for the wasteful spending to be used on pork projects. I have seen only a handfull of Republicans sign off on pork filled bills recently.
I am asking YOU, which is more important and makes better sense. See that is the problem with this country...we see party lines and view points and are not willing to step out of those lines in our views, either when discussing something or dissenting. So we automatically label each other and throw us all together within that party. If that isn't a form of racism (since racism is nothing more than stereotyping people and painting them in a bad light) I don't know what is. Because I am conservative you automatically lump me in with those that support things such as pork filled bills. sad really.
Try debating with me...not Limbaugh, Not O' reilly, not hannity, and not Beck, me....Those guys do not speak for me nor do I share their opinion and repeat their complete mantra.
The little girl whose parents can't afford the happy meal for with the psp and ipod are exactly the same people I don't want to get healthcare...since they have their priorities screwed up...as does I would 25% of america...yet that 25% are the people we are typically bailling out, supportting, and propping up....
Let me give you an example. One of the local new guys did a report/story on government programs in new mexico that are available.....A family of four, can not work in this state and draw enough benefits, food stamps, healthcare insurance, and so to equal a family of four making 60,000 a year.....There is something wrong with that, especially since they don't have to do anything in return.
There are so many ways to compensate for our programs instead of just spending more money...problem is you and others won't even consider it....
so as I asked before, what makes more sense to do with the wasteful spending within the current government programs? Spend more money on a healthcare plan that might maybe hopefully reduce healthcare cost...even though it doesn't allow for true competition across statelines and capitalism....but sticks with the psuedo monopolistic status quo, just adding another minor monopoly into the mix? Or taking that money, reducing our deficit, strengthening our dollar, and preventing an increase in taxes that will slow down the economy thus reducing the amount of money collected in taxes, thus increasing our debt more?
That money is NOT virtual....someday it will come due...or the interest will get so great that we will collapse our entire financial system.
Originally Posted by usirchchris
http:///forum/post/3141557
Multi quote

You are already doing it there slick...I was just trying to show you how to do it easier. You give me too much credit...all you have to do is click 1 button.

Technology!!

Don't mock him, he runs a business that contracts with government....High level security clearances required even for many of the jobs. You wouldn't expect someone of that calliber to figure out the multi-quote button on a fish forum he has frequented daily for over a year......He would then be over qualified for those government contracts.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3141549
Probably so, but doesn’t let that get in the way of the all mighty dollar though.
Is you is or is you aint my constituent?
If you ever get the chance check out the movie Bullworth. I almost choked I laughed so hard at that movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa8jmm3ppBA

 

[bionicarm]

Me use party lines? How about you? Every comment you make spews conservatism. You sound like the typical Right Winger I keep railing about. Party lines is what has every major debate in Washington separated. That's the main reason ANY legislation doesn't happen these days. I wish there weren't party lines in government, but unfortunately that'll never happen.
Again, you take The Survival Of The Fittest approach to healthcare. You don't want one penny from your pocket going to anyone else unless you decide who to give it to. Unfortunately, poverty is a big issue in this country, and it's been going on WAY before any economic crisis we've had over the last several decades. Problem is, everyone ignores that issue until it happens to them. Sure there are those that are the deadbeats that have learned the 'system' and know how to live of off free money like welfare and food stamps, but that's not the norm. You have millions of people in this country that work three and four jobs just to make enough to pay the rent and put food on the table. Those same individuals would love to be able to walk into a clinic when they get sick, and not have to choose between paying a medical bill and paying rent. That's the point of healthcare reform. wasteful spending has been a normal practice in Washington since its inception. Once the Bureaucrats realized the cash cow they had, they used it every chance they got. That's why I call the Budget 'virtual'. Because even balancing won't change the way things are done in Washington. Clinton balanced the budget one or two years during his term, and look where that got us - nowhere. As soon as he left office, another one walked into the door with his own vision of spending. If Obama were to magically balance the budget during his term, do you honestly think that will make the dramatic change in our economy you claim it will? I don't think so. There will always be some 'bill' that the taxpayers will have to pay. I'm paying for the debt incurred when my parents were young, and I'm sure my kids will be paying for mine when they get older. That's just the statys quo and how things are done in our Federal Government.
Wow, even you want to provide a dig about utilizing the options on a forum. If you haven't noticed, I don't pay much attention to options and what's available on these silly forums. For instance, I don't waste my time filling out profiles so everyone knows who I am and where I live. I don't waste my energy downloading juvenile avatars just so I can look cutesy (or in some cases, a REAL lonely person). I just stick to the basics. Need to quoyw someone? I do use that technological button that says "Quote". If I want to do more than one quote, I just use the old reliable cut and paste. Use what you know. It's worked for me for the last 30 years I've benn in the computer industry. Why mess with perfection.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141771
Me use party lines? How about you? Every comment you make spews conservatism.
Really, then explain why my favorite political candidate to date for the Presidency is still Ross Perot. Fiscally I am conservative. I won't deny that...because I feel Washington should not be able to operate as if they have never ending credit just like the average citizen has to do. Because I feel the MAJORITY (and you can't deny this) would rather and are spending their money on the latest gadget rather than what is important and basic in life......
Socially, I could careless about abortion, gay marriage, and such....I believe these are issues that should be decided by individuals. You should NOT be penalized on these issues if you support or oppose them. I am not even against welfare and unemployment for those on the down and out...I just feel some sort of community service is in order to show the individual is atleast willing to work and help out the country that is supportting them in their time in need.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141771
Again, you take The Survival Of The Fittest approach to healthcare. You don't want one penny from your pocket going to anyone else unless you decide who to give it to.
Yet I agree with a plan that covers all children (even those going to college) and the elderly/retired. I like how you only see what you want and ignore the rest. I am sorry, EVERY able bodied american in this country can have health insurance with no monthly out of pocket expense to themselves.......I will let you figure that one out.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141771
Unfortunately, poverty is a big issue in this country, and it's been going on WAY before any economic crisis we've had over the last several decades. Problem is, everyone ignores that issue until it happens to them.
Poverty is a problem in EVERY country...the problem is one's idea of poverty....My problem here, is our idea of poverty is off. The average home under the poverty level has 3 televisions, cable, and multiple cell phones within the family......that isn't poverty...that is keeping up with the joneses.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
"inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post">
You have millions of people in this country that work three and four jobs just to make enough to pay the rent and put food on the table.
Really? Millions? I would love to see the data on that....
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141771
Those same individuals would love to be able to walk into a clinic when they get sick, and not have to choose between paying a medical bill and paying rent. That's the point of healthcare reform.

Yet the plan/plans aren't much in the form of reforms as they are providing a government option without allowing the current insurance companies to compete at the same level nationwide as the government plan.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141771
wasteful spending has been a normal practice in Washington since its inception. Once the Bureaucrats realized the cash cow they had, they used it every chance they got. That's why I call the Budget 'virtual'. Because even balancing won't change the way things are done in Washington. Clinton balanced the budget one or two years during his term, and look where that got us - nowhere. As soon as he left office, another one walked into the door with his own vision of spending. If Obama were to magically balance the budget during his term, do you honestly think that will make the dramatic change in our economy you claim it will? I don't think so. There will always be some 'bill' that the taxpayers will have to pay. I'm paying for the debt incurred when my parents were young, and I'm sure my kids will be paying for mine when they get older. That's just the statys quo and how things are done in our Federal Government.

So since it is normal we should just be ok with it going on?
We should demand better...we should try to be better. The change would not happen over night...but you would see the value of the dollar strengthen quickly...once that happens...then the market would soar from foreign investors....But I guess you are fine with us limping along....we will run in a bad economy and continue to spend more, devaluing our currency and causing our debt and costs to rise....if the dollar continues to devalue....insurance won't be the only thing people wont be able to afford.
If the budget gets balanced...it is our duty to ensure the next guy keeps it that way....problem, there are people like you willing to give away the farm to supply some milk to a few people...

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3141883
Really, then explain why my favorite political candidate to date for the Presidency is still Ross Perot. Fiscally I am conservative. I won't deny that...because I feel Washington should not be able to operate as if they have never ending credit just like the average citizen has to do. Because I feel the MAJORITY (and you can't deny this) would rather and are spending their money on the latest gadget rather than what is important and basic in life......
Socially, I could careless about abortion, gay marriage, and such....I believe these are issues that should be decided by individuals. You should NOT be penalized on these issues if you support or oppose them. I am not even against welfare and unemployment for those on the down and out...I just feel some sort of community service is in order to show the individual is atleast willing to work and help out the country that is supportting them in their time in need.
Yet I agree with a plan that covers all children (even those going to college) and the elderly/retired. I like how you only see what you want and ignore the rest. I am sorry, EVERY able bodied american in this country can have health insurance with no monthly out of pocket expense to themselves.......I will let you figure that one out.
Poverty is a problem in EVERY country...the problem is one's idea of poverty....My problem here, is our idea of poverty is off. The average home under the poverty level has 3 televisions, cable, and multiple cell phones within the family......that isn't poverty...that is keeping up with the joneses.
Really? Millions? I would love to see the data on that....
Yet the plan/plans aren't much in the form of reforms as they are providing a government option without allowing the current insurance companies to compete at the same level nationwide as the government plan.
So since it is normal we should just be ok with it going on?
We should demand better...we should try to be better. The change would not happen over night...but you would see the value of the dollar strengthen quickly...once that happens...then the market would soar from foreign investors....But I guess you are fine with us limping along....we will run in a bad economy and continue to spend more, devaluing our currency and causing our debt and costs to rise....if the dollar continues to devalue....insurance won't be the only thing people wont be able to afford.
If the budget gets balanced...it is our duty to ensure the next guy keeps it that way....problem, there are people like you willing to give away the farm to supply some milk to a few people...
I agree with you that in theory, there is no reason why the Federal Government shouldn't be able to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. But this type of thing has been going on with pretty much every President since who, Lincoln? The question I have is, why now with the current administration are all these what I term as 'anti-Obama' advocates taking a stand? Why weren't these same people who claim the Democrats are dragging this country into economic ruin, didn't make this same stand when Bush was collapsing the very same economy his last couple years in office? If there's a problem with an overinflated budget and an ever-rising deficit, it shouldn't matter who's running the show.
I'm not for 'giving away the show'. Right now, I haven't seen much that Obama has given away. Everyone who disagrees with his proposals are ASSUMING his plans will result in taxes and everything else going up. Why? Because he's a DEMOCRAT. And we all know the Democrats play Robin Hood and raise taxes. History tells us so.

Problem is, until an actual bill comes up for him to sign, all there is are assumptions.
As far as millions of people working three or four jobs just to get by? Just look up the employment statistics and see what percentage of the American people that are living below the poverty level, or those that make less than $45,000/year. Minimum wage $7.25/hr X 2080 = $15,080 X 3 jobs = $45,020. Sorry, but 45 grand these days doesn't go far with a family of four -- Rent for 2 bedroom apartment for one year, $15,000. Utilities (gas, water, electric, phone), $5,000. Food, $6,000. Clothing, $1,200 (just shopping at WalMart and TJMaxx). Transportation Costs (car insurance, gas, repairs), $5,000. Other Household expenses, $5,000. And probably another $2,000 or so for other things I may have missed. Not to mention, these are just a SWAG for what costs are in Texas. I imagine you can add at least 30% to these numbers if you lived in Cali or on the East Coast. So where do they get the money to pay a minimum of $9,000/year for health insurance?

 

[reefraff]

We assume taxes are going up because Obama's spending habits make GW look like a fiscal conservative

Back in the 90's there was a group called the concord coalition that might still be around. They were all about getting rid of the deficit. Medicaid, medicare and Social Security were eating a huge part of the budget. At the time which was around 1995 it was inconceivable that there was any way to pay off the debt without cutting entitlement programs. Then the Tech bubble came along, with a little fiscal sanity, and we had some yearly surpluses.
What it goes to show is that the government needs to adopt some pro business policies if we ever want to do away with the deficit. even if we cut all the wasteful spending we are going to need a second industrial revolution to dig us out of this mess.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141907
As far as millions of people working three or four jobs just to get by? Just look up the employment statistics and see what percentage of the American people that are living below the poverty level, or those that make less than $45,000/year. Minimum wage $7.25/hr X 2080 = $15,080 X 3 jobs = $45,020. Sorry, but 45 grand these days doesn't go far with a family of four -- Rent for 2 bedroom apartment for one year, $15,000. Utilities (gas, water, electric, phone), $5,000. Food, $6,000. Clothing, $1,200 (just shopping at WalMart and TJMaxx). Transportation Costs (car insurance, gas, repairs), $5,000. Other Household expenses, $5,000. And probably another $2,000 or so for other things I may have missed. Not to mention, these are just a SWAG for what costs are in Texas. I imagine you can add at least 30% to these numbers if you lived in Cali or on the East Coast. So where do they get the money to pay a minimum of $9,000/year for health insurance?

Just one question...if they are working 2,3, or 4 jobs...are they not making more than that? And if they have multiple jobs (like I do) one of those offer a medical plan I am sure and pay a decent portion of it. Even McDonalds offers a medical plan that only costs 300 a month for family coverage....
I make less than 50,000 a year working two jobs myself for a family of 4...Yes I own my own business...but the economy lately has reduced my income....yet I can still afford the essentials for my family and a few ammenities.....including (gasp) healthcare insurance. The portion my healthcare doesn't cover....I set up in monthly payments...believe it or not...hospitals will work with you and allow you pay as little as 15 dollars a month on outstanding bills......I do it....

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3141907
I agree with you that in theory, there is no reason why the Federal Government shouldn't be able to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. But this type of thing has been going on with pretty much every President since who, Lincoln? The question I have is, why now with the current administration are all these what I term as 'anti-Obama' advocates taking a stand? Why weren't these same people who claim the Democrats are dragging this country into economic ruin, didn't make this same stand when Bush was collapsing the very same economy his last couple years in office? If there's a problem with an overinflated budget and an ever-rising deficit, it shouldn't matter who's running the show.
Maybe because Obama was preaching change..so almost 70% of the country was supportting him in the beginning...now that the deficit has ballooned, is it possible the 30 percent support he has lost are coming from people that want things balanced......
I gave him the benefit of the doubt...I knew he wouldn't eanct change in the deficit, but I gave him a chance after he was elected. How did I know he wouldn't, because in three debates he dodged the deficit question. The deficit is my primary concern in every election......and every election I am dissappointed.
If you look, many of us were unhappy with Bush's spending.........especially near the end...why else would he have an approval ratting in the 20s.......many conservatives don't protest...but I think Obama final placed the straw on the camel's back with the healthcare spending....which is why you are seeing a more conservative driven protest now for something other than abortion.

 

[jackri]

Too bad Obama's first order of business was enacting a flat tax and get rid of the IRS. But yeah I guess it's fair that those that don't pay taxes can still get a tax return.
I'm tired and the last replies are too long to argue with so I'm just say I would've voted for Steve Forbes. I'm a captalist pig

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3141970
Just one question...if they are working 2,3, or 4 jobs...are they not making more than that? And if they have multiple jobs (like I do) one of those offer a medical plan I am sure and pay a decent portion of it. Even McDonalds offers a medical plan that only costs 300 a month for family coverage....
I make less than 50,000 a year working two jobs myself for a family of 4...Yes I own my own business...but the economy lately has reduced my income....yet I can still afford the essentials for my family and a few ammenities.....including (gasp) healthcare insurance. The portion my healthcare doesn't cover....I set up in monthly payments...believe it or not...hospitals will work with you and allow you pay as little as 15 dollars a month on outstanding bills......I do it....
I based the $45K on 3 jobs at minimum wage for a standard 40-hour work week for an entire year (40 hours X 52 weeks = 2080). Never realized McDonald's offered health insurance plans. If that's the case, why do we need national healthcare?

Do you own your own home, or are you paying rent? I based the $15K for housing on a monthly rent of $1,200/month. Thought that was the going rate these days. I congratulate you if you can live a comfortable life WITH health insurance with a family of four in today's times. Based on what I've seen, you're the exception and not the norm.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3142145
Never realized McDonald's offered health insurance plans. If that's the case, why do we need national healthcare?

.
That is the billion dollar question, why do we need nationalized health care?

 

[jackri]

You forget there's a population in the country that refuses to advance on their own.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by jackri
http:///forum/post/3142267
You forget there's a population in the country that refuses to advance on their own.
Yeah, problem is that there is also now a huge population of people who are unemployed due to greed by the top 1% percenters and feel free to be a capitalist pig all day long as long as you don't ride my back to get your precious wealth.
Fishtaco

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3142519
Yeah, problem is that there is also now a huge population of people who are unemployed due to greed by the top 1% percenters and feel free to be a capitalist pig all day long as long as you don't ride my back to get your precious wealth.
Fishtaco
Starbucks, Chrysler, Lehman Brothers (gone), California education system, DHL, EDS (Gone), and General Motors were in the top ten for most lay offs......So who profitted in these company's and maintained their status quo with these layoffs......none of these companies were making profits...all operated in the red.....How did greed play into these layoffs?

 

[fishtaco]

Maybe you should take a look at how the corporate system works. Ceo's and upper management almost always get every last penny they can into their pockets before a large corporation goes under. I personally know of a mid-sized company CEO who was let go for running the company into the ground and what they called his golden parachute would be called early retirement for 99% percent of the people I know or should we discuss where the TARP money went also. Normal people like us don't have these kind of luxuries in our lives and I thank my lucky stars that when gas prices went through the roof and the housing market was starting to break I pulled every last dollar I had out of the stock market and put it safely into the bank because unlike the top 1% percenters the government is not going to bail me out if I lose money. I guess not being a greedy capitalist piggy can have it's advantages because I still have my life saving more or less intact because I don't trust the system at all. Like I said above, these people can practice this unregulated capitalism all they want, but not on my dime and I do support long prison terms for any CEO that abuses the system.
Fishtaco

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3142552
Maybe you should take a look at how the corporate system works. Ceo's and upper management almost always get every last penny they can into their pockets before a large corporation goes under. I personally know of a mid-sized company CEO who was let go for running the company into the ground and what they called his golden parachute would be called early retirement for 99% percent of the people I know or should we discuss where the TARP money went also. Normal people like us don't have these kind of luxuries in our lives and I thank my lucky stars that when gas prices went through the roof and the housing market was starting to break I pulled every last dollar I had out of the stock market and put it safely into the bank because unlike the top 1% percenters the government is not going to bail me out if I lose money. I guess not being a greedy capitalist piggy can have it's advantages because I still have my life saving more or less intact because I don't trust the system at all. Like I said above, these people can practice this unregulated capitalism all they want, but not on my dime and I do support long prison terms for any CEO that abuses the system.
Fishtaco
Would you forgo any raises at your job and take a 10% pay cut if it saved the janitors job?

 

[fishtaco]

You know what, if I was a CEO or a business owner and had to take a 10 percent pay loss to save a good employee I would do it willingly. Do you have any idea the vast amounts of money these people make and still are unwilling to do anything to help those that help make them so wealthy. I guess my ethics and morals just don't work the same as most peoples. My wifes company took a loss just like most and they had a pay freeze and that went all the way up the corporate ladder and there have been no job losses even though the bottom line is down about 30 percent. This is a major software firm with thousands of people BTW. Luckily I am in the position of making money for myself when I need to and don't have to rely on the scraps thrown me by a CEO making millions of dollars a year to burn a company to the ground. My view on capitalism is the old fashioned one taught to me by a small business owner that employed me for 14 years and treated me very well and in return every single day I did the best job for him I could possibly do. We had some slow times, but they where just that and we always recovered by using that time to build inventory and would come out on top when the market again picked up because we could do same day delivery on stuff that would take competing companies weeks or months to produce. He passed away and his "new style" capitalist son took over, suddenly raises where at the threat of quitting only and my yearly bonus was cut in third so he could buy his wife a new chest, drive a new BMW and buy a second home worth a million. Needless to say I left that job as fast as I could and when I drove by that business recently it looks closed up tight after 50 years in business under the old owner.
Fishtaco.