Why we are losing the war in Iraq...

[1journeyman]

Ryan, what's the "end game" here?
How about explaining your position that the current war was not justified, but Clinton's bombing Iraq was?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Ryan, what's the "end game" here?
How about explaining your position that the current war was not justified, but Clinton's bombing Iraq was?
I know what has been reported through the media, but with some of the things that this Admin has done with the Patriot Act, the corruption and scandals, is it possible that we have been mislead about this war? Do you honestly believe that what we are being told is what is actually going on over there? Do believe that they have/had WMD and if so where are they? Why did Colin Powell leave office at the beginning of this war?

 

[darthtang aw]

Rylan, I have a question for you regarding Bin Laden. I know you feel we should be using more resources to find him and remove him. Something you may not know though is the following.....Bin Laden has not been officially charged with the attacks of 9/11. The FBI does not have enough evidence to convict him for this......If you look at his Most wanted poster you will notice 9/11 isn't even mentioned.....It only mentions bombing that occurred in the 1990's.
Now my question is...If you believe The administration lied about IRAQ every time....How can you believe they told you the truth about who was responsible for 9/11.....
With Iraq, every major nation confirmed what we thought.....
With Bin Laden every m,ajor nation also confirmed bin laden was responsible.
Neither scenario was given factual proof to the public...yet you believe he lied about one and not the other...even though the rest of the world agreed with both comments.
Can you explain why you believe one and not the other?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
I know what has been reported through the media, but with some of the things that this Admin has done with the Patriot Act, the corruption and scandals, is it possible that we have been mislead about this war? Do you honestly believe that what we are being told is what is actually going on over there? Do believe that they have/had WMD and if so where are they? Why did Colin Powell leave office at the beginning of this war?
What specifically do you not like about the Patriot Act?
In order for the US people to have been "mislead" about this war, there would have to be a vast conspiracy in the works. I say vast because it would have started during President Clinton's reign and involved every major intelligence agency around the world...
You make it seem like the media is on board with the President. That's crazy. We've never had so many "classified" secrets reported by the media before.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
What specifically do you not like about the Patriot Act?
In order for the US people to have been "mislead" about this war, there would have to be a vast conspiracy in the works. I say vast because it would have started during President Clinton's reign and involved every major intelligence agency around the world...
You make it seem like the media is on board with the President. That's crazy. We've never had so many "classified" secrets reported by the media before.
No its much more simple than a vast conspiracy- The government can release what ever they want to release- the media reports what they allow them to report. The media and the public probably have access to only a small % of the classified information about this war.
Doesn't the Patriot Act violate the Constitution? Wasn't it done in secret and without proper approval by Congress? I know it is suppposed to protect us but I also believe its a violation of rights.
Do you think are government is capable of pulling off a Wag The Dog conspiracy- I'm not saying the Iraq war is this,

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
No its much more simple than a vast conspiracy- The government can release what ever they want to release- the media reports what they allow them to report. The media and the public probably have access to only a small % of the classified information about this war.
Doesn't the Patriot Act violate the Constitution? Wasn't it done in secret and without proper approval by Congress? I know it is suppposed to protect us but I also believe its a violation of rights.
Do you think are government is capable of pulling off a Wag The Dog conspiracy- I'm not saying the Iraq war is this,
The media is controlled by the government???? Have ya read or watched much news lately? You really think this is what the government would choose to have shown?
I asked you, specifically, what you don't like about the Patriot Act. Give some specifics. No talking points please. Congress did approve it, btw.
Can the government conspire? Sure... What you fail to address, however, is the worldwide conspiracy over multiple Presidents from different administrations including foreign intelligence agencies.

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
The government can release what ever they want to release- the media reports what they allow them to report.
As someone who works in the media, I can tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about. There are good reporters out there doing everything they can to break stories and find truth. If the government had the kind of control you think they do, nothing would ever get out.
Originally Posted by Rylan1
Doesn't the Patriot Act violate the Constitution? Wasn't it done in secret and without proper approval by Congress?
You mean like Lincoln did during the Civil War, when he suspended Habeas Corpus?
Honestly, people can't have it both ways. When 9/11 happened, everyone complained about the government, wondering why they didn't have better intelligence and make some effort to stop it. When the government does try and gather better intelligence, people complain about losing their rights. Make up your minds.

 

[rylan1]

As someone who works in the media, I can tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about. There are good reporters out there doing everything they can to break stories and find truth. If the government had the kind of control you think they do, nothing would ever get out.
QUOTE]
The military and national security can hide anything they want. If you belief they can't you are very nieve. The reporters you speak of- if they break some information its because of a leak or a whistle blower- not that they uncovered some top secret document. Or if they decide to release info it will be decades later... think about all the things that probably get wipped under the table, also if a reporter does get a story that the government does not want reported -that their life could be at risk- so ultimately is goes unreported. I'm not trying to be some conspiracy theorist but to believe we have absolute knowledge or access to it is absurd.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
The military and national security can hide anything they want. If you belief they can't you are very nieve. The reporters you speak of- if they break some information its because of a leak or a whistle blower- not that they uncovered some top secret document. ........
That's arguing both sides of the fence Ryan.
If the Government controlled the media you wouldn't have "leaks". The New York Times has run stories very damaging to the war effort. Those obviously wouldnt have been run if the Government controlled the media.
Ryan, I've been to countries where the Government used to control the media. To say we are anything like that is completely false.
We're drifting afar of the issue however:
What specifically do you think is Unconstitutional about the Patriot Act? (and rmember Congress overwhelmingly approved it. It passed the Senate with 98 out of a 100 votes).
How is Clinton's decision to bomb Iraq legit while President Bush's decision a bunch of lies, against International Law, etc.?

 

[darthtang aw]

And Rylan still refuses to answer my questions of why he will believe what BUSH said about BIN Laden and Al Qaeda but says he lies about IRAQ....typical.

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
And Rylan still refuses to answer my questions of why he will believe what BUSH said about BIN Laden and Al Qaeda but says he lies about IRAQ....typical.
i never knew we were losing quite the opposite imo...tobin

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
The military and national security can hide anything they want. If you belief they can't you are very nieve. The reporters you speak of- if they break some information its because of a leak or a whistle blower- not that they uncovered some top secret document. Or if they decide to release info it will be decades later... think about all the things that probably get wipped under the table, also if a reporter does get a story that the government does not want reported -that their life could be at risk- so ultimately is goes unreported. I'm not trying to be some conspiracy theorist but to believe we have absolute knowledge or access to it is absurd.
You've apparently never heard of the Freedom of Information Act, and as has already been pointed out, if the government had the kind of control you think they do, nothing would ever leak and nothing bad would ever be reported. Obviously, there are some secrets the government must keep, and the media respects that, but no reporter/paper/news channel will sit on a good story if they get it right. The business is far too competitive for that.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
You've apparently never heard of the Freedom of Information Act, and as has already been pointed out, if the government had the kind of control you think they do, nothing would ever leak and nothing bad would ever be reported. Obviously, there are some secrets the government must keep, and the media respects that, but no reporter/paper/news channel will sit on a good story if they get it right. The business is far too competitive for that.
Yea have you seen that stuff they get that is all blacked out....

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
And Rylan still refuses to answer my questions of why he will believe what BUSH said about BIN Laden and Al Qaeda but says he lies about IRAQ....typical.
Its not that I am refusing to answer you, but I do have a job and have been kinda busy. I'll give you a response.

 

[oceansidefish]

We are in Iraq, nothing can change that now. Whether you are for or against the war the reality is that what we have to be working on in a BI-PARTISAN way is figuring out how we are going to get done what needs to be done. We need to figure out how to sustain what we are doing without destroying our young men and women who sacrifice their lives on a daily basis. Truth is that the volunteer army was never designed to sustain what we are currently going through. The number of mental illnesses and all of the problems they are causing with the soldiers is asstounding. I am concerned about the soldiers and their families and their well-being. I would like to see a plan to successfully finish what we started, and without sending home tens of thousands of broken men and women with little to speak of with their VA benefits. What we are doing now has some serious issues with the way things are being handled, but they can be fixed. Yes we need more soldiers on the ground its a fact. Why did we win WWII? Because we had enough soldiers on the ground. I know people hate the draft but ya know what? The war would have been done and over if we had used the draft, been able to train enough ground troops to PROPERLY invade and then occupy and secure the county.
I would also like to see more independent oversight of the contractors and their progress and spending habits.
I would like to know what happened to Pat Tillman, if there is nothing to hide then tell us. I realize that friendly fire accidents are a part of war. I can accept that.
I would like to stop wasting time arguing about the past that unless we invent a time machine we CANNOT CHANGE.

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
Yea have you seen that stuff they get that is all blacked out....
Yes, but oftentimes reporters can get documents that aren't censored. Ever hear of the Pentagon Papers? The fact is, the government has very little control over the media. I guess I'll have to point it out yet again... If they did, nothing bad would ever be reported, and we all know that's not the case.
And you've still not responded to my Lincoln/Habeas Corpus point. Probably because you can't...

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Oceansidefish
We are in Iraq, nothing can change that now. Whether you are for or against the war the reality is that what we have to be working on in a BI-PARTISAN way is figuring out how we are going to get done what needs to be done. We need to figure out how to sustain what we are doing without destroying our young men and women who sacrifice their lives on a daily basis. Truth is that the volunteer army was never designed to sustain what we are currently going through. The number of mental illnesses and all of the problems they are causing with the soldiers is asstounding. I am concerned about the soldiers and their families and their well-being. I would like to see a plan to successfully finish what we started, and without sending home tens of thousands of broken men and women with little to speak of with their VA benefits. What we are doing now has some serious issues with the way things are being handled, but they can be fixed. Yes we need more soldiers on the ground its a fact. Why did we win WWII? Because we had enough soldiers on the ground. I know people hate the draft but ya know what? The war would have been done and over if we had used the draft, been able to train enough ground troops to PROPERLY invade and then occupy and secure the county.
I would also like to see more independent oversight of the contractors and their progress and spending habits.
I would like to know what happened to Pat Tillman, if there is nothing to hide then tell us. I realize that friendly fire accidents are a part of war. I can accept that.
I would like to stop wasting time arguing about the past that unless we invent a time machine we CANNOT CHANGE.

Pat Tillman is a good example of what I was refering to.
Bin Laden and his people admitted to be responsible for 911 via those videotapes

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Rylan1

Pat Tillman is a good example of what I was refering to.
Yeah, something you only know about because of good (not government controlled) reporting.

 

[oceansidefish]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
Yeah, something you only know about because of good (not government controlled) reporting.
Not that I am trying to bash or contradict but Pat Tillman's case has been brought up by the family relentlessly....It's only being reported on now because of the congressional investigation and the pushing of the coroner who did the autopsy to investigate. The media did not push this and still isn't. They really are just blurbing barely... While the media can be thanked for alot..they can't take the credit for this one.

 

[oceansidefish]

Originally Posted by Rylan1

Pat Tillman is a good example of what I was refering to.
Bin Laden and his people admitted to be responsible for 911 via those videotapes
Be carefull about using what Bin Laden claims in anything.... He would admit to killing Pope John Paul the II if he could. I am not saying rule it out but just because he said it doesn't make it true. He is like the Howard Stern of terrorists.