27 dead at Connecticut Elementary School

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/280#post_3505098
Your kidding right!!!!!
Quills was complaining that the anti-gun groups were taking away his "freedom" to own guns. What is the primary purpose of a firearm? TO KILL. In many cases, innocent people get KILLED by a firearm by someone committing a criminal act. I don't care if it's 1 or 1,000,000. Someone normally dies when shot with a gun. I understand the premise behind the 2nd. Unfortunately you have gun zealots that interpret it as owning as many guns that they can get their hands on, and they see that ownership takes presedence over the value of life. If someone gets killed by a firearm for whatever reason, that's just the way it is because it's our right to own them. Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault. As long as I can own a gun, that's all that matters.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/260#post_3505051
Yes, we are lucky and when every one born in this country. And when those who were born here, or legally immigrated here are working and getting enough to eat we can consider helping out Mexican and South American citizens. But what happens if we keep spending billions on services to people who didn't respect our laws and entered the country illegally? Sooner or later our economy is going to be in such a state we wont be able to help our own citizens, let alone another country's.
Our economy isn't in a state to help others. So why have we spent almost $1 trillion helping Iraq and Afghanistan? Shoot, if we'd kept that money and handed it over to Mexico, we'd probably have more US citizens going over THERE to work than illegal Mexicans coming over here.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505149
Our economy isn't in a state to help others. So why have we spent almost $1 trillion helping Iraq and Afghanistan? Shoot, if we'd kept that money and handed it over to Mexico, we'd probably have more US citizens going over THERE to work than illegal Mexicans coming over here.
Mexico didn't attack us nor seen as a threat to give WMDs to terrorists.

 

[scarecrow]

I would like to throw my two cents in , I grew up in the 60''s/70's my children grew up in the late 80's / 90's and in my opinion the difference was that when I was young there were Consequence's for my actions and I knew my parents could and would apply them . And then the kids were taught by teachers, commercials and there pairs that the government says NO parents are not allowed to spank Well that didn't mean that parents could not apply CONSEQUENCE's and then the whole idea if discipline went out the window with kids threading to call the cops and so on. I believe that what needs to happen is this country needs to get back to the consequence of the action in all levels , 3 yr olds to infinity if you are old enough to do the crime you are old enough for the punishment or ( not too old ) in either case some people commit a crime and believe that if they get caught they won't be punished !!! And far to many times if turns out to be TRUE.

 

[bionicarm]

There's a sucker born every minute. A local gun show had one of its biggest days in recent history. By the end of the day, every singlr AR-15 that was being sold at the event was gone. A wepaon normally being sold for $1200 was going for $2300. .223 ammo was flying off the tables. A 1000 rounds that normally sells fro $300 was selling for $700. All brought on by the fear that those moronic Progressive Gun Lovers were going to take their precious assualt weapons away. Doesn't matter that 90% of the people bought the guns simply because "I'm buying it as a collector's item. In another year I'll be able to sell this for twice what paid for it." (A response by several individuals intervieded at the event). Kind of reminds you of Christmas Toy rushes of the past where every kid had to have a Cabbage Patch Doll or Furby. They didn't buy the weapon for its intended purpose. They just bought out of irrational fear. I guess we have the comfort of knowing there's several 1000 more AR's floating around in more "responsible gun owners" hands. I mean, none of these would EVER think of using them for criminal purposes.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505150
Mexico didn't attack us nor seen as a threat to give WMDs to terrorists.
LMFAO. You have an excuse for everything. Neither Iraq or Afghanistan has ever "directly" attacked us. Some radical terrorists factions that just lived in those regions did. And exactly where are these WMD's that were given to terrorists? Since those two little skirmishes began, I haven't heard of any nuclear explosions going off anywhere. Oh wait. North Korea has been playing around with WMD's. Let's go spend another trillion on that conspiracy.
How do you know Mexico isn't plotting another invasion? I was down in Acuna couple week ago, and the rumor is there's this new militia being formed that plans to come to San Antonio and take the Alamo back.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarecrow http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505151
I would like to throw my two cents in , I grew up in the 60''s/70's my children grew up in the late 80's / 90's and in my opinion the difference was that when I was young there were Consequence's for my actions and I knew my parents could and would apply them . And then the kids were taught by teachers, commercials and there pairs that the government says NO parents are not allowed to spank Well that didn't mean that parents could not apply CONSEQUENCE's and then the whole idea if discipline went out the window with kids threading to call the cops and so on. I believe that what needs to happen is this country needs to get back to the consequence of the action in all levels , 3 yr olds to infinity if you are old enough to do the crime you are old enough for the punishment or ( not too old ) in either case some people commit a crime and believe that if they get caught they won't be punished !!! And far to many times if turns out to be TRUE.
You may actually have something there. So what would be the penalty for someone who robs a store with a gun, but doesn't use it? 25 years? If someone is killed when using a firearm, automatic death penalty with execution of sentence to occur no later than 30 days after being found guilty, no appeals, nothing? I'll go even further. We not only prosecute the criminal who used the gun, we also prosecute the individual who sold the gun to them. I mean, they're now suing these bars and restaurants for serving a person too many drinks, and that individual goes out and drives his car, hitting and killing one or more people, why not the same for the gun sellers?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505148
Quills was complaining that the anti-gun groups were taking away his "freedom" to own guns. What is the primary purpose of a firearm? TO KILL. In many cases, innocent people get KILLED by a firearm by someone committing a criminal act. I don't care if it's 1 or 1,000,000. Someone normally dies when shot with a gun. I understand the premise behind the 2nd. Unfortunately you have gun zealots that interpret it as owning as many guns that they can get their hands on, and they see that ownership takes presedence over the value of life. If someone gets killed by a firearm for whatever reason, that's just the way it is because it's our right to own them. Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault. As long as I can own a gun, that's all that matters.
In West Virginia, my mother was shot when she was in her twenties (she is 76 now)...back then you really did usually die from a gunshot wound, she was fortunate because her surgeon was in the war and knew how to handle such a wound. She lost a kidney, and they patched up the holes in her intestines (belly wounds are messy) She doesn't like guns, but she blames the drunk who shot her as the reason, not the weapon he used.
I never fired a gun in my life, never even held one in my hand... and I doubt I ever will. My grandfather and my 3 uncles did defend our home from the Latin King gang in Chicago, when they threatened to burn the house down. I remember them standing watch at the windows all night in shifts. One uncle was shot in the leg by a gang member when he was just walking down the sidewalk and he has the bullet in his leg to this day, they never removed it. How dare my uncle call the poi lice on the thug, and point him out...so a war against my family broke out. That was over 20 years ago, and the streets of Chicago are only getting worse.
People do need guns to protect themselves, police can't be everywhere. In fact my husband and I got robbed at gun point, the police were afraid to pursue the bad guys...they just let them get away, and never even bothered to look for them. Instead they just sat in the squad car and talked to the neighbors while the thieves fled. The city is still a war zone, and the kids have to walk to school thru it everyday. The get shot at, and beat up, on the way to and from school, not in school.
You can't pay me enough to even go back to Chicago to visit the city for anything. If the legal weapons are taken away from the people in Chicago, only the gangs will be armed. There are places that are peaceful, I live in a nice community in Illinois. If a law to ban guns is passed, it affects everyone, including the folks in the city war zones who really do need to defend themselves. My mother worked in a hotel in Gurnee...just up the street from where I live now, and the place was robbed at gun point 3Xs, once while she worked there, she did not work there anymore afterward, once shot in her lifetime was enough, so she quit.
So it's more than a "what if a bad guy breaks into your house" reason for being armed. Since my mother fears guns, I opted for two mean German Shepherds, they are to buy us time to get away and call police, just in case trouble comes to my house. Sadly it would only take a second for a bad guy to shoot my dogs...but no way can my mother have a gun in the house, so that's the best we have.
Oh and by the way...I agree a gun is to KILL...and I hope whoever aims at a bad guy to defend themselves, does just that.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505161
LMFAO. You have an excuse for everything. Neither Iraq or Afghanistan has ever "directly" attacked us. Some radical terrorists factions that just lived in those regions did. And exactly where are these WMD's that were given to terrorists? Since those two little skirmishes began, I haven't heard of any nuclear explosions going off anywhere. Oh wait. North Korea has been playing around with WMD's. Let's go spend another trillion on that conspiracy.
How do you know Mexico isn't plotting another invasion? I was down in Acuna couple week ago, and the rumor is there's this new militia being formed that plans to come to San Antonio and take the Alamo back.

So by your standard we shouldn't have gone to war against Hitler or Iraq the first time, they never attacked us LOL!
Mexico has attacked us. Every one of the illegals they encourage to come here and steal jobs and public services is an attack, just not one a military response is appropriate for.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505159
There's a sucker born every minute. A local gun show had one of its biggest days in recent history. By the end of the day, every singlr AR-15 that was being sold at the event was gone. A wepaon normally being sold for $1200 was going for $2300. .223 ammo was flying off the tables. A 1000 rounds that normally sells fro $300 was selling for $700. All brought on by the fear that those moronic Progressive Gun Lovers were going to take their precious assualt weapons away. Doesn't matter that 90% of the people bought the guns simply because "I'm buying it as a collector's item. In another year I'll be able to sell this for twice what paid for it." (A response by several individuals intervieded at the event). Kind of reminds you of Christmas Toy rushes of the past where every kid had to have a Cabbage Patch Doll or Furby. They didn't buy the weapon for its intended purpose. They just bought out of irrational fear. I guess we have the comfort of knowing there's several 1000 more AR's floating around in more "responsible gun owners" hands. I mean, none of these would EVER think of using them for criminal purposes.

You Texans must be really stupid if you are paying 300 for a thousand rounds and1200 for an AR under normal circumstances LOL!
Gun prices will be through the roof for a few months. I'll use the opportunity to expand my assault weapons collection. Why people are paying through the nose for AK's and AR's I'll be expanding my lever gun collection, the original assault weapon.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505162
You may actually have something there. So what would be the penalty for someone who robs a store with a gun, but doesn't use it? 25 years? If someone is killed when using a firearm, automatic death penalty with execution of sentence to occur no later than 30 days after being found guilty, no appeals, nothing? I'll go even further. We not only prosecute the criminal who used the gun, we also prosecute the individual who sold the gun to them. I mean, they're now suing these bars and restaurants for serving a person too many drinks, and that individual goes out and drives his car, hitting and killing one or more people, why not the same for the gun sellers?
Difference is you sell someone a gun, a legal product in this country, you have no control or knowledge over what they will do with it. When you serve an obviously intoxicated person alcohol you are knowingly and directly contributing to their condition.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505173
So by your standard we shouldn't have gone to war against Hitler or Iraq the first time, they never attacked us LOL!
Mexico has attacked us. Every one of the illegals they encourage to come here and steal jobs and public services is an attack, just not one a military response is appropriate for.
I don't ever recall Germans or Iraqi's invading our borders. Did I miss something?
Ah, so now it's called an "attack". You're actually saying the Mexican government is telling their people to come here illegally so they don't have to support them? LMFAO. Your conspiracy theories get more ridiculous everytime I read them.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505175
Difference is you sell someone a gun, a legal product in this country, you have no control or knowledge over what they will do with it. When you serve an obviously intoxicated person alcohol you are knowingly and directly contributing to their condition.
Last time I looked, alcohol was legal to sell and own in this country. I know people that can pop a .2 on a alcohol blow test and look as normal and lucid as if they haven't had one drink. Most bars have 2 or 3 bartenders serving anywhere from 5 to 20 people at one time. They barely have enough time to do the job their paid, much less try to do some sobriety tests on every person that asks for a drink. What about the guy that's getting his buddies to buy the drinks? Bartenders never see them. They have no knowledge whether the guy is drinking the drink, handing it to someone else, or never drinking it at all. Same thing with liquor stores. They sell some guy a fifth of bourbon, he goes down the street, drinks half of it, then totals his car into some pregnant mother walking down the street. Is the liquor store libel for his actions? There's been legal cases won against large liquor store chains for this very offense.
.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505174
You Texans must be really stupid if you are paying 300 for a thousand rounds and1200 for an AR under normal circumstances LOL!
Gun prices will be through the roof for a few months. I'll use the opportunity to expand my assault weapons collection. Why people are paying through the nose for AK's and AR's I'll be expanding my lever gun collection, the original assault weapon.
Don't look at me, I wasn't one of the idiots that made the mad dash down to buy anything related to an AR-15 just because Fox News told me the gun world as we know it will be coming to an end. And believe me, I seriously doubt that Texas is the only place where this is happening.
The NRA better be careful how they try handling this situation. Tick off those nasty Liberal/Progressive anti-gun nuts in Washington, and they'll just turn the gun ammunition industry into what has happened to the tobacco industry. Want to buy that box of .223 ammo? No problem. There's now a $50 federal "assault weapon ammo" tax on every 50-round box of that ammo sold nationwide. Want to just make your own? $50/lb "assault weapon ammo" tax on any .223 brass or lead. Shoot, they can do it with .308, 10mm, and 9mm, since those are attributed to the semi-auto handguns that can be used in the same manner as an AR-15 when it comes to one of these carnage attacks. No one's hindering your right to bear and own firearms under the 2nd. It's just going to cost you an arm and a leg to enjoy that "hobby". Wouldn't phase me. I've had the same box of 9mm for my handgun that I bought 2 years ago. Dang! I can make a killing off that box when this goes into effect! YAHOO!!!

 

[2quills]

Bionic, the argument here is simply that there are A Lot of Other Things that kill far more innocent people. You are taking a stance against guns and that is fine because you are perfectly allowed to have your opinion. Whether anyone else here agrees with your logic or not. But when you start talking about taking away one thing that is minor in significance to a far greater picture then what does that say about your argument against alcohol? What that it's ok for thousands of people to die senselessly every year but god forbid a few hundred are killed using something else? Guns aren't going to just magically disappear tomorrow morning whether we like it or not. And the fact is that there are far more dangerous places to live in this country than there are truly safe places to live. And random violent acts against innocent people isn't just going to stop whether they use guns, knife's or bats. So unless we go out and just start banning everything then we're not really fixing the problem. We're just moving ourselves ever close to living like a bunch of robots under a new world order. Although, you just might like that (who knows). I think what everyone else here just wants to know is what else ya got? Because the most immediate question facing parents right now is how do they better protect their kids from here on out in a world where a lunatic could be lurking around any corner?

 

[darthtang aw]

Do that Don't look at me, I wasn't one of the idiots that made the mad dash down to buy anything related to an AR-15 just because Fox News told me the gun world as we know it will be coming to an end.  And believe me, I seriously doubt that Texas is the only place where this is happening.
The NRA better be careful how they try handling this situation.  Tick off those nasty Liberal/Progressive anti-gun nuts in Washington, and they'll just turn the gun ammunition industry into what has happened to the tobacco industry.  Want to buy that box of .223 ammo?  No problem.  There's now a $50 federal "assault weapon ammo" tax on every 50-round box of that ammo sold nationwide.  Want to just make your own?  $50/lb "assault weapon ammo" tax on any .223 brass or lead.  Shoot, they can do it with .308, 10mm, and 9mm, since those are attributed to the semi-auto handguns that can be used in the same manner as an AR-15 when it comes to one of these carnage attacks.  No one's hindering your right to bear and own firearms under the 2nd.  It's just going to cost you an arm and a leg to enjoy that "hobby".  Wouldn't phase me.  I've had the same box of 9mm for my handgun that I bought 2 years ago.  Dang!  I can make a killing off that box when this goes into effect!  YAHOO!!!
Do that and the progressive liberals will lose some of their base. My father in law is a liberal he owns a Bushmaster ar 15, an Sks, and a mini 14. He just ordered 20 more 30 round magazines. I went ahead and said I would pitch in for half. Bottom line. There are liberals that strongly believe in the second ammendment. He is even a member of the NRA. Go ahead pass the ban. They will lose the next 8 years of elections because of it. I stitute a ridiculous tax and they put republicans back in office. Part of me hopes for a ban.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505177
I don't ever recall Germans or Iraqi's invading our borders. Did I miss something?
Ah, so now it's called an "attack". You're actually saying the Mexican government is telling their people to come here illegally so they don't have to support them? LMFAO. Your conspiracy theories get more ridiculous everytime I read them.
That is what I said. You think we should have just allowed hitler to do his thing cause he never attacked us?
And yes, the Mexican government ENCOURAGES people to come here.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/mexico/kits.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4645782.stm
Mexico also doesn't do much as far as patrolling the border but the southern border is like a war zone.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505181
Bionic, the argument here is simply that there are A Lot of Other Things that kill far more innocent people. You are taking a stance against guns and that is fine because you are perfectly allowed to have your opinion. Whether anyone else here agrees with your logic or not. But when you start talking about taking away one thing that is minor in significance to a far greater picture then what does that say about your argument against alcohol? What that it's ok for thousands of people to die senselessly every year but god forbid a few hundred are killed using something else? Guns aren't going to just magically disappear tomorrow morning whether we like it or not. And the fact is that there are far more dangerous places to live in this country than there are truly safe places to live. And random violent acts against innocent people isn't just going to stop whether they use guns, knife's or bats. So unless we go out and just start banning everything then we're not really fixing the problem. We're just moving ourselves ever close to living like a bunch of robots under a new world order. Although, you just might like that (who knows). I think what everyone else here just wants to know is what else ya got? Because the most immediate question facing parents right now is how do they better protect their kids from here on out in a world where a lunatic could be lurking around any corner?
Sticking more guns in schools is not the answer. It's a band-aid. The NRA Chief says it will send a message to these maniacs that "schools are the safest place in the country for your children". OK. So they'll just keep shooting up malls, theaters, and playgrounds where the kids also go. I've seen first hand a country that sticks armed guards in every public place to "protect their citizens from the bad guys". I saw it in Honduras. When I worked down there, even with that presense, the company contracting me still wouldn't allow me to freely go around the city without a proper escort. I went straight from the hotel to their facility, ate at their facility (which looked like an armed fortress with armed guards at the entrance), then was taken directly back to my hotel where it was suggested I stay until the next day. I actually ventured out with some of the employees that worked with the company, and they said it feels "safe for the most part", but you're always looking over your shoulder. Is that the level we're going to denigrate this country to? Have to have armed individuals around every corner because our society has become so violent to the point you're afraid to even walk down the street without a sidearm? I don't live in fear. In my 54 years, I've never been in a situation where I've had the need to carry a firearm with me at all times. I've never had a relative attacked or harmed by an armed criminal. None of my current friends have ever been attacked or harmed by an armed criminal. Are we just lucky? Or do we understand our surroundings, and use logical means to "protect ourseleves" from these situations? I don't know what the answer is. It's not just a "mental health" issue either. Studies show that most people with mental illnesses aren't typically violent in nature. You have the schitzophrenics that can go crazy, but new medicines are helping them control those urges. They have this kid from the Aurora shootings still in captivity, and last I heard, he's still not talking as to why he did what he did. These types of violent acts can't continue, no matter what the reason. If you don't start removing some of the elements that are used to cause these tragedies, it's only going to get worse before it gets better. You tell me how you can get into someone's mind to change what they're thinking or know when the next peron is going to snap. Guess we need the futuristic technology that was used in that Tom Cruise movie with the Pre-Cogs. Have these "special people" that can see into the future and tell us when the next murder or carnage will occur. That's the only way you'd ever be able to determine when the next "crazy" person is going to commit one of these acts.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505182
Do that
Do that and the progressive liberals will lose some of their base. My father in law is a liberal he owns a Bushmaster ar 15, an Sks, and a mini 14. He just ordered 20 more 30 round magazines. I went ahead and said I would pitch in for half. Bottom line. There are liberals that strongly believe in the second ammendment. He is even a member of the NRA. Go ahead pass the ban. They will lose the next 8 years of elections because of it. I stitute a ridiculous tax and they put republicans back in office. Part of me hopes for a ban.
Brother. Talk about a "The Sky Is Falling" over-reaction. What's he gonna do, resell them on Ebay?

"A fool and his money are soon parted"....
Not all Republicans/Conservatives are gun lovers. The smokers said the same thing, and look what happened to the price of a pack of cigarettes.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/300#post_3505183
That is what I said. You think we should have just allowed hitler to do his thing cause he never attacked us?
And yes, the Mexican government ENCOURAGES people to come here.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/mexico/kits.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4645782.stm
Mexico also doesn't do much as far as patrolling the border but the southern border is like a war zone.
Yet another uniformed statement. I go across the Mexico border at least 3 times per month. When you come to their border, they have armed Federales with AR-15's or M16's, and camo trucks with a .50 cal mounted in the back. I see them driving around all day, and the last few months they've even setup more checkpoints within the city to stop and do random car inspections.
Your first link is dated from 2001. Oh yeah, I'm sure they still do that 12 years later.....
Your second link states that some organization just provides maps for people who are bent on trying to get over here so they can at least find shelter and water so they don't die trying to get here. I guess compassion for you fellow man isn't something you'd consider doing.