27 dead at Connecticut Elementary School

[snakeblitz33]

What are the statistics?
There are 98,817 public schools currently active.
There have been 36 separate occurences in 22 years.
You are looking at a 0.03643% chance of it happening.
Is that percent chance worth billions of dollars of federal funding for security guards, metal detectors, lock down systems, video cameras, security systems and the like? The likelyhood drops even lower when you add in the 33,000 private schools and the almost 7,000 colleges in the United States.
Is it worth having our kids be afraid to go to school? Afraid that at any minute something could go wrong? That's why there are bars and guards, huh? Kind of sounds like sending your kids to jail for eight hours a day. Do you think you could learn in that environment?

 

[crimzy]

What are the statistics?
There are 98,817 public schools currently active.
There have been 36 separate occurences in 22 years.
You are looking at a 0.03643% chance  of it happening.
Is that percent chance worth billions of dollars of federal funding for security guards, metal detectors, lock down systems, video cameras, security systems and the like? The likelyhood drops even lower when you add in the 33,000 private schools and the almost 7,000 colleges in the United States.
Is it worth having our kids be afraid to go to school? Afraid that at any minute something could go wrong? That's why there are bars and guards, huh? Kind of sounds like sending your kids to jail for eight hours a day. Do you think you could learn in that environment?
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that the school has no obligation to provide security when entrusted with our children? Most people would definitely agree that schools should not be like prisons......
There's really no debate. The school has a legal obligation to provide reasonable security. Having physical custody of children is a huge responsibility. It's unlikely that someone may break into my house tonight, but my doors are still locked and I still have security...

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/60#post_3504255
reef. Another one that doesn't get it. Who says you have to setup your own machine shop to build ONE bolt carrier for your personal AR-15. From what I've read, you don't even need to do that. Some people are using M16 carrier's in the AR's, and they work just fine in full-auto mode. You keep forgetting, people who'd want to do this mod aren't neccessarily what you were term as "law abiding responsible gun owners". Pretty much the same people who'd want a silencer on the end of their barrel.
You cannot legally buy the full auto parts without the proper license. My first AR was built with surplus parts. one of the parts was pulled from the "scrap pile" at a military installation. The military in it's wisdom had decided to change from chrome molly bolts to another material because they were worried the shiny bolt would reflect sun and give away the position of the person with the gun. Forget the fact the dust shield should be closed but anyway LOL! The bolt was taken from a full auto and the sear was machined off so it would no longer have the potential to fire in full auto mode. When I sold the gun the guy who bought it (who was an FFL holder and master gun smith for the military) told me after the fact that being in possession of that bolt, even with the sear machined off was illegal. That is how tight the law is on this stuff.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/60#post_3504257
So now this assailant in China is some ninja warrior or knife marksman that throws knives at the woman spinning on the wheel? LMFAO. The guy was just running around hacking at people. I guarantee you I'd have been inventive enough to pick up something to protect myself. Would I try doing that against some maniac spewing bullets out of a semi-auto pistol? Sure thing. I'M RAMBO!
No. Someone motivated with a 6" knife in their hand isn't an easy target. Watch some of the training police and military people do with rubber knives sometime. You can protect yourself but try to disarm the person.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/60#post_3504274
How about another question... if the teachers had training and carried concealed weapons would that make schools safer? It could have prevented this incident but then you have to worry about unstable teachers....
To the argument that this is really a mental health issue... I haven't read anywhere that the kid was suffering from a disease of the mind. There are people who commit evil, atrocious acts without the excuse of insanity to hide behind.
The unfortunate truth is that these pieces of garbage are created by us... by society. We sensationalize these events and the next a-hole wants to achieve equal or greater infamy than the last. We all know the name of the shooters but rarely do we remember the victims names. If we could stop turning these people into notorious legends then maybe they'd go back to just offing themselves in their basements.
I agree the media needs to change how they report this stuff but no sane person would do what this clown did.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504284
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that the school has no obligation to provide security when entrusted with our children? Most people would definitely agree that schools should not be like prisons......
There's really no debate. The school has a legal obligation to provide reasonable security. Having physical custody of children is a huge responsibility. It's unlikely that someone may break into my house tonight, but my doors are still locked and I still have security...
Snake is from Louisiana. I assume he doesn't have the frame of reference you would being from a megatropolis. They've had metal detectors in some of Los Angeles schools for like 20 years.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/60#post_3504276
And maybe the real issue here isn't gun control or mental illness but is really security in schools. I have a kindergartener and a first grader and their school isn't locked during the day. A stranger can just walk in and is confronted only with a sign that strangers should report to the office. This is my main concern as a parent.
crimzy, the majority of the schools in this nation were never designed with protection in mind for senseless attacks as this one. You see metal detectors and school district police in some of the sschools in the more "shady" neighborhoods, but other than that, no would ever imagined they had to "lock down" schools to protect the children while they're there to simply get an education. My daughter's high school has an open court right in the middle of the campus (normally used for extra space for sitting at lunch, and other school functions) that's directly accessible from any of the parking lots. Some maniac like this guy could walk right in and start opening fire before anyone realized what was going on. They have several armed district police that occassionally peruse the campus, but of course our illustrious Governor has whacked the education budget to the point that the districts can't hire adequate policemen to support all the schools in the district. What's interesting is recently my school district implemented these RFID badges to all the students in one particular high school and middle school as a way to track the students while they were in attendance in their respective schools. The district's main agenda is to quell truancy because for every student missing from class is money the district loses from the state. On the other hand, this technology would be invaluable in a scenario such as this one. Once someone is identified that's not supposed to be on the campus, an alert can be sent out and the administration has the capability of tracking the whereabouts of every single student based on the RFID tag on the student ID. Of course the Neocons had a fit with this, and claimed the "Big Brother" conspiracy, and one student even went as far as suing the district because the badge "violated her religious beliefs". Her father claimed the badge represented the "Mark of the Devil". Here's a thought, make sure your little truant brat attends school as she is supposed to, and punish her if she skips classes or arrives late to class.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504290
You cannot legally buy the full auto parts without the proper license. My first AR was built with surplus parts. one of the parts was pulled from the "scrap pile" at a military installation. The military in it's wisdom had decided to change from chrome molly bolts to another material because they were worried the shiny bolt would reflect sun and give away the position of the person with the gun. Forget the fact the dust shield should be closed but anyway LOL! The bolt was taken from a full auto and the sear was machined off so it would no longer have the potential to fire in full auto mode. When I sold the gun the guy who bought it (who was an FFL holder and master gun smith for the military) told me after the fact that being in possession of that bolt, even with the sear machined off was illegal. That is how tight the law is on this stuff.
And criminals care about the laws? I'vefound I don't know how many sites who sell the required parts for a "price". Then you have the multitude of pre-1986 AR's that are still out in the public hands that still have the bolts that will work in full-auto mode. Believe me, if you want something bad enough, there's always someone out there that will sell it to you. It al depends how much it's worth to you.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504292
No. Someone motivated with a 6" knife in their hand isn't an easy target. Watch some of the training police and military people do with rubber knives sometime. You can protect yourself but try to disarm the person.
Believe me. If I chunked a 4" rock directly at the guy's head, and hit my target, he wouldn't be conscious to continue holding that knife. I was watching one of these stupid police reality shows this afternoon where some dude in the Phillipines was holding 5 or 6 people "hostage" in the house, and he was holding people back with a hammer and some kind of knife/long spike. The cops kept trying to talk him down, and they finally picked up a ladder, pushed him with it against a wall, then beat the crap out of before he released his "weapons". I can imagine all sorts of "weapons" that would be available in literally any school that could be used as a defensive mechanism or a "weapon" of sorts to disable some idiot with a knife. I defintely wouldn't be as intimidated with some guy swinging a knife around as I would some guy pointing a loaded gun in my direction.

 

[crimzy]

crimzy, the majority of the schools in this nation were never designed with protection in mind for senseless attacks as this one.  You see metal detectors and school district police in some of the sschools in the more "shady" neighborhoods, but other than that, no would ever imagined they had to "lock down" schools to protect the children while they're there to simply get an education.  My daughter's high school has an open court right in the middle of the campus (normally used for extra space for sitting at lunch, and other school functions) that's directly accessible from any of the parking lots.  Some maniac like this guy could walk right in and start opening fire before anyone realized what was going on.  They have several armed district police that occassionally peruse the campus, but of course our illustrious Governor has whacked the education budget to the point that the districts can't hire adequate policemen to support all the schools in the district.  What's interesting is recently my school district implemented these RFID badges to all the students in one particular high school and middle school as a way to track the students while they were in attendance in their respective schools.  The district's main agenda is to quell truancy because for every student missing from class is money the district loses from the state.  On the other hand, this technology would be invaluable in a scenario such as this one.  Once someone is identified that's not supposed to be on the campus, an alert can be sent out and the administration has the capability of tracking the whereabouts of every single student based on the RFID tag on the student ID.  Of course the Neocons had a fit with this, and claimed the "Big Brother" conspiracy, and one student even went as far as suing the district because the badge "violated her religious beliefs".  Her father claimed the badge represented the "Mark of the Devil".  Here's a thought, make sure your little truant brat attends school as she is supposed to, and punish her if she skips classes or arrives late to class.
A lot of schools have security cameras with buzzers on the front doors. Unfortunately if you wait for something bad to happen before taking security seriously then it's pointless.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504297
And criminals care about the laws? I'vefound I don't know how many sites who sell the required parts for a "price". Then you have the multitude of pre-1986 AR's that are still out in the public hands that still have the bolts that will work in full-auto mode. Believe me, if you want something bad enough, there's always someone out there that will sell it to you. It al depends how much it's worth to you.
If you want it bad enough and have the money you can get it but no legit business is going to take a chance. If they are advertising for the parts you know ATF is watching. But when was the last time you heard of a street thug or gang banger being busted with a full auto? It isn't even an issue. I was just reading on a site that was talking about what you have to go through to buy the parts. There is a HK model that ATF will bust you for if a hole is drilled in the receiver. Just a hole. It doesn't change the operation of the gun but allows the additional parts to be installed for the conversion. They don't play around with this stuff which is why you don't see a lot of illegal conversions floating around.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504298
Believe me. If I chunked a 4" rock directly at the guy's head, and hit my target, he wouldn't be conscious to continue holding that knife. I was watching one of these stupid police reality shows this afternoon where some dude in the Phillipines was holding 5 or 6 people "hostage" in the house, and he was holding people back with a hammer and some kind of knife/long spike. The cops kept trying to talk him down, and they finally picked up a ladder, pushed him with it against a wall, then beat the crap out of before he released his "weapons". I can imagine all sorts of "weapons" that would be available in literally any school that could be used as a defensive mechanism or a "weapon" of sorts to disable some idiot with a knife. I defintely wouldn't be as intimidated with some guy swinging a knife around as I would some guy pointing a loaded gun in my direction.
You assume the guy is just going to stand there as you throw the rock. Me, I have a deadly weapon with me at all times. I am a 3rd degree black belt in Crutchatta LOL!

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504296
crimzy, the majority of the schools in this nation were never designed with protection in mind for senseless attacks as this one. You see metal detectors and school district police in some of the sschools in the more "shady" neighborhoods, but other than that, no would ever imagined they had to "lock down" schools to protect the children while they're there to simply get an education. My daughter's high school has an open court right in the middle of the campus (normally used for extra space for sitting at lunch, and other school functions) that's directly accessible from any of the parking lots. Some maniac like this guy could walk right in and start opening fire before anyone realized what was going on. They have several armed district police that occassionally peruse the campus, but of course our illustrious Governor has whacked the education budget to the point that the districts can't hire adequate policemen to support all the schools in the district. What's interesting is recently my school district implemented these RFID badges to all the students in one particular high school and middle school as a way to track the students while they were in attendance in their respective schools. The district's main agenda is to quell truancy because for every student missing from class is money the district loses from the state. On the other hand, this technology would be invaluable in a scenario such as this one. Once someone is identified that's not supposed to be on the campus, an alert can be sent out and the administration has the capability of tracking the whereabouts of every single student based on the RFID tag on the student ID. Of course the Neocons had a fit with this, and claimed the "Big Brother" conspiracy, and one student even went as far as suing the district because the badge "violated her religious beliefs". Her father claimed the badge represented the "Mark of the Devil". Here's a thought, make sure your little truant brat attends school as she is supposed to, and punish her if she skips classes or arrives late to class.
The high school I went to was built in a pretty decent neighborhood at the time in the early 60's. It had 4 points of entry into a quad area that were gated. The idea was "Closed campus". They were trying to keep the kids in rather than the bad guys out. I am sure most schools that have been built in the last 50 years or so have similar designs. The real problem is there isn't any money to make the modifications. When you break the bank spending on stuuuuuuupid stuff something that might make sense wont get funded.

 

[dragonzim]

Believe me, if you want something bad enough, there's always someone out there that will sell it to you.  It al depends how much it's worth to you.
And that is precisely why an all out ban wouldn't work. The people that want them bad enough are gonna get them anyway

 

[bionicarm]

Reports from the coroner state that most of the victims where killed with a "long rifle bullet", a.k.a, he was primarily using the Bushmaster as his weapon of choice. Most of the children were hit with multiple shots, and the coroner stated that it was the worst damage he had ever seen in a human body. Most of the children's parents were advised to just look at selective pictures of their loved ones to avoid having to look at their riddled bodies to confirm the deaths. Reports are also coming out that he had
access to at least three other weapons, but they didn't state their kind or model. It's also being reported that he wasn't "buzzed" into the school as first stated, but broke the main window and forced his way into the school. So it appears this maniac went Rambo with his "harmless" AR-15, and emptied an undetermined amount of clips in one primary area of the school (mostly where the 1st graders classrooms wer located). They're also stating that the principal and several other teachers tried to tackle the assailant before the shooting rampage against the children occurred. Guess that's an effort in futility when the guy is standing there with a 30-round clip in an AR-15 shooting in your direction. Too bad he wasn't this knife wielder in China. The majority of those kids would still be alive today.

 

[flower]

Just jumping in...I tried to read the entire thread but....I just couldn't stomach it. I really think the lunatic wanted to go out with a bang and be famous. I blame the sensationalism of the media, and the deranged fool. If the crazy wanted to kill is mother then take his own life, I can understand being nuts enough to do it....but why else go kill at point blank, a bunch of 6 to 7 year olds, unless you want to the most famous nut, and be declared the worse killer as you go out...
We need to stop our kids from being a target. Time for home school maybe, or start a new school uniform...... bullet proof vests and a helmet. There is no solution with gun control, that would mean the only ones with weapons would be the gangs and crazies....Sadly the nut of the latest sensational shooting used legal weapons. I guess it's time to design a bullet proof turtle outfit for our little ones, an all in one place to hide from the bad people in the world who wants to hurt them just to get famous.
Watch...it's already begun, the media makes a big ado about the killings, and some other nut watching the news goes out to make their mark in history as a murdering nut case. I heard the news say this morning authorities stopped a kid planning a bombing on his school, and another crazy opened fire in a shopping mall. I would be perfectly happy if the media said..."Because we don't want the killer to get any attention...here is the list of victims, and details of what happened, but we will not release the name, sex, or race of the offending idiot..said individual is not worth our time or effort to report any information" Maybe, just maybe if they won't get any attention they will find another quick way to get famous. Perhaps if the media only sensationalized the hero's and do gooders, we would be sending a different message on how to get attention.
There...I had my say.

 

[darthtang aw]

I linked how many stories of of a knife wielder killing in a massacre fashion and you still refute it is possible or highly unlikely. Your rock throwing comment is dumb. Suddenly you have the accuracy of a pitcher?
The problem is chaos. When these incidents occur chaos ensues. Especially with frightened children involved. EVeryone can state what they would do in a situation like this from behind their computer. But the fact of the matter is only those trained to react and act in these situations have a chance of assisting and stopping an onslaught. The average human would have to long of a delay processing the situation and then assessing what needs done.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504326
I linked how many stories of of a knife wielder killing in a massacre fashion and you still refute it is possible or highly unlikely. Your rock throwing comment is dumb. Suddenly you have the accuracy of a pitcher?
The problem is chaos. When these incidents occur chaos ensues. Especially with frightened children involved. EVeryone can state what they would do in a situation like this from behind their computer. But the fact of the matter is only those trained to react and act in these situations have a chance of assisting and stopping an onslaught. The average human would have to long of a delay processing the situation and then assessing what needs done.
Darth, your version of reality is amazingly skewed. How you can honestly think that disarming an INEXPERIENCED knife holder isn't possible or plausible, it just plain ignorance. Tell you what. Give me just 3 nice sized rocks, let me stand about 8 feet from you, you start coming at me with a knife, and we'll see who gets hurt the most. I don't have to hit you in the head. I could hit you in the torso, the leg, pick a major body part. Unless you're impervious to pain, your body's reaction will be to stop and react to the pain. By the time you figure that out, I'm either nailing you with the other rock, or advancing my position to wear I could either disarm you, or simply pummel you to death with one of my remaining rocks. At the same time, I'm holding a chair, a container, or any other item to be used as a shield just in case you do still advance. I can be swinging that as wildly as you swinging your knife, waiting for an opening to hit you with another rock. It's called self defense. Doing that against a maniac shooting .223 bullets at the rate of 30 in 10 seconds would be suicide.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504326
I linked how many stories of of a knife wielder killing in a massacre fashion and you still refute it is possible or highly unlikely. Your rock throwing comment is dumb. Suddenly you have the accuracy of a pitcher?
The problem is chaos. When these incidents occur chaos ensues. Especially with frightened children involved. EVeryone can state what they would do in a situation like this from behind their computer. But the fact of the matter is only those trained to react and act in these situations have a chance of assisting and stopping an onslaught. The average human would have to long of a delay processing the situation and then assessing what needs done.
Your analogy about dealing with a situation like this is what I've been saying all along. Of course the resident gun fanatics would disagree with that assessment. Just because you can load a gun and hit some inanimate object like a target, in no way prepares you for something like this tragedy. Arming these teachers would be pointless. What's next? Requiring a CHL and special forces tactical arms training course as a prerequisite to getting a teaching degree?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504323
Reports from the coroner state that most of the victims where killed with a "long rifle bullet", a.k.a, he was primarily using the Bushmaster as his weapon of choice. Most of the children were hit with multiple shots, and the coroner stated that it was the worst damage he had ever seen in a human body. Most of the children's parents were advised to just look at selective pictures of their loved ones to avoid having to look at their riddled bodies to confirm the deaths. Reports are also coming out that he had
access to at least three other weapons, but they didn't state their kind or model. It's also being reported that he wasn't "buzzed" into the school as first stated, but broke the main window and forced his way into the school. So it appears this maniac went Rambo with his "harmless" AR-15, and emptied an undetermined amount of clips in one primary area of the school (mostly where the 1st graders classrooms wer located). They're also stating that the principal and several other teachers tried to tackle the assailant before the shooting rampage against the children occurred. Guess that's an effort in futility when the guy is standing there with a 30-round clip in an AR-15 shooting in your direction. Too bad he wasn't this knife wielder in China. The majority of those kids would still be alive today.
Same damage could have been done with the handguns he had, even if it was just the two.