27 dead at Connecticut Elementary School

[darthtang aw]

Darth, your version of reality is amazingly skewed.  How you can honestly think that disarming an INEXPERIENCED knife holder isn't possible or plausible, it just plain ignorance.  Tell you what.  Give me just 3 nice sized rocks, let me stand about 8 feet from you, you start coming at me with a knife, and we'll see who gets hurt the most.  I don't have to hit you in the head.  I could hit you in the torso, the leg, pick a major body part.  Unless you're impervious to pain, your body's reaction will be to stop and react to the pain.  By the time you figure that out, I'm either nailing you with the other rock, or advancing my position to wear I could either disarm you, or simply pummel you to death with one of my remaining rocks.  At the same time, I'm holding a chair, a container, or any other item to be used as a shield just in case you do still advance.  I can be swinging that as wildly as you swinging your knife, waiting for an opening to hit you with another rock.  It's called self defense.  Doing that against a maniac shooting .223 bullets at the rate of 30 in 10 seconds would be suicide. 
Ahhhhh but that is where the problem lies now isn't it. You are facing and expecting the assailant. In all those stories I linked there was no expectation. One of them the guy walked into a mass of scoop kids and started stabbing. Killing 13 in less than a minute. How long would it take you to reach the assailant, or find some rocks. Your argument has been and continues to be it is the weapon of choice that enables these situations to occur and not the mentality or planning of the assailant for the action. The stories I have linked state otherwise. Regardless of weapon mass murder and massacres are still plausible. Your point asking how many kids can be killed at a school going 140mph. I say just as many if drivin onto a playground.
The assailant could just as easily walked into a class room with a knife stabbed and killed the teacher and then stabbed and killed children. All in the time it would have taken for someone to run down the hall to the classroom.
With gunshots the immediate reaction is to call 911. In a school with screaming kids and no gunshots a person would go Investigate first before calling the authorities. Because skids scream and are loud naturally.

 

[darthtang aw]

Your analogy about dealing with a situation like this is what I've been saying all along.  Of course the resident gun fanatics would disagree with that assessment.  Just because you can load a gun and hit some inanimate object like a target, in no way prepares you for something like this tragedy.  Arming these teachers would be pointless.  What's next?  Requiring a CHL and special forces tactical arms training course as a prerequisite to getting a teaching degree?
In some instances I agree with you. However in this case it might have reduced the amount of deaths. The gunshots started in the administration office. This gave teachers time to hide Children and go then sit at their desks. One teacher hid the kids then sat in the open of the room waiting for the assailant. He popped in saw her she had time to plead and then was killed. Now if she had a gun she could have had it drawn and ready an possibly saved her life and the lives of the children In the next room. Again this is all contingent on her being prepared and ready but it might have increased her chances.
Should all teachers be required? No this should be a personal choice. But in this one instance I can see how a cc might have reduced the amount of death. The Colorado shooting is a totally different scenario and I think a cc there may not have been as effective slowing down the murders till near the end of the shooting.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/80#post_3504332
Same damage could have been done with the handguns he had, even if it was just the two.
Now there's a comforting thought. I'm sure the families of all these dead children and other individuals who were massacred by this creaton will be happy to know that there loved one's would've been killed all the same no matter which weapon or weapons he chose to use.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504341
Now there's a comforting thought. I'm sure the families of all these dead children and other individuals who were massacred by this creaton will be happy to know that there loved one's would've been killed all the same no matter which weapon or weapons he chose to use.
I am sure it's as comforting as hearing the anti gun morons spewing their typical made up statistics and pie in the sky assertions about gun control. Remember, it wasn't gun owners who whored out this tragity, it was you anti gun zealots. We are simply responding to your propaganist baloney.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504345
I am sure it's as comforting as hearing the anti gun morons spewing their typical made up statistics and pie in the sky assertions about gun control. Remember, it wasn't gun owners who whored out this tragity, it was you anti gun zealots. We are simply responding to your propaganist baloney.
Such big words with little content. The morons are the one's who can justify gun ownership on the guise that the device isn't intended to be used for killing. Someone needs to "whore out" this tragedy, or they'll continue to occur with more frequency. Next time it could be one of your loved one's. But that's just the way it is, as long as I can have my guns to plink at other inanimate objects.

 

[dragonzim]

Darth, your version of reality is amazingly skewed.  How you can honestly think that disarming an INEXPERIENCED knife holder isn't possible or plausible, it just plain ignorance.  Tell you what.  Give me just 3 nice sized rocks, let me stand about 8 feet from you, you start coming at me with a knife, and we'll see who gets hurt the most.  I don't have to hit you in the head.  I could hit you in the torso, the leg, pick a major body part.  Unless you're impervious to pain, your body's reaction will be to stop and react to the pain.  By the time you figure that out, I'm either nailing you with the other rock, or advancing my position to wear I could either disarm you, or simply pummel you to death with one of my remaining rocks.  At the same time, I'm holding a chair, a container, or any other item to be used as a shield just in case you do still advance.  I can be swinging that as wildly as you swinging your knife, waiting for an opening to hit you with another rock.  It's called self defense.  Doing that against a maniac shooting .223 bullets at the rate of 30 in 10 seconds would be suicide. 
You have officially crossed into ridiculous territory. You want us to believe that you'd be able to keep a handle on 3 rocks large enough to do damage (where are you gonna find them while inside a school, btw) AND be able to swing around a chair for defense WHILE throwing said rocks with enough force and accuracy to do some damage, all while someone is running at you with a knife... Sounds like the only person around here who thinks they are Rambo is you.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504346
Such big words with little content. The morons are the one's who can justify gun ownership on the guise that the device isn't intended to be used for killing. Someone needs to "whore out" this tragedy, or they'll continue to occur with more frequency. Next time it could be one of your loved one's. But that's just the way it is, as long as I can have my guns to plink at other inanimate objects.
Who said a gun isn't design to kill? You are making up straw men again.

 

[crimzy]

Bionic, I usually agree with you... and I'm not necessarily opposed to some level of gun "control", (not complete elimination). I believe that a motivated person will be able to get a gun on the black market. That being said, no one is going to take away my ability to protect my family from bad people.
Where the real issue lies, imho, is in peoples' right to carry guns on their person. In this instance, if one of the good guys had access to a weapon then they could probably have reduced the loss of life. Since there was nothing to level the playing field, there was no way to stop the bad guy. However I think that having a ccw was one of the primary problems that empowered an idiot like George Zimmerman to provoke an altercation that eventually led to the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Just looking at this atrocity in a vacuum, it would have helped to arm a good guy or two.

 

[crimzy]

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504354
Bionic, I usually agree with you... and I'm not necessarily opposed to some level of gun "control", (not complete elimination). I believe that a motivated person will be able to get a gun on the black market. That being said, no one is going to take away my ability to protect my family from bad people.
Where the real issue lies, imho, is in peoples' right to carry guns on their person. In this instance, if one of the good guys had access to a weapon then they could probably have reduced the loss of life. Since there was nothing to level the playing field, there was no way to stop the bad guy. However I think that having a ccw was one of the primary problems that empowered an idiot like George Zimmerman to provoke an altercation that eventually led to the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Just looking at this atrocity in a vacuum, it would have helped to arm a good guy or two.
Yep. Like I said up thread they have safes now with biometric locks. You put your finger on it and it reads your print and pops open. Going to pick one up and do a pistol Daniel Boone.
You could do the same thing in schools. There are employees who would be willing to go through the training you'd want them to have to be allowed to pull a gun at school. The problem is the sheeple who think guns are the root of all evil will never allow it.
I am not a member nor have I ever been a member of the NRA but they have a pretty good program for kids called Eddie Eagle. A friend tried to get his kid's school to do it and the brain dead administrator was horrified he would suggest the evil NRA should ever be allowed in HER school. The program is about gun safety. Not about how to safely use one (which wouldn't be a bad idea) but basically this is a gun, this is what it can do and this is why you should never touch one without your parents being with you. But Noooooooooooooooooooo, NRA isn't allowed in her school. Dumb B........

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonZim http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504348
You have officially crossed into ridiculous territory. You want us to believe that you'd be able to keep a handle on 3 rocks large enough to do damage (where are you gonna find them while inside a school, btw) AND be able to swing around a chair for defense WHILE throwing said rocks with enough force and accuracy to do some damage, all while someone is running at you with a knife... Sounds like the only person around here who thinks they are Rambo is you.
Rocks, chairs, flower vases, computers, any other type of school equipment, pottery projects,... There's a multitude of medium to large items that can be used for protection and projectiles lying around a school. That's just ONE person. You think all the other adults would just stand around and watch while some idiot flails a knife around? The principle and two other teachers during this incident tried to tackle and stop this lunatic, and he was pointing a semi-auto rifle at them! A knife holder wouldn't even make it past the office. You think if he burst into a classroom, the kids would just sit there and scream? Those 6 and 7 years old would scatter like rats. He may catch one or to, but I guarantee you he'd been apprehended or dead before he could take down the number in this tragedy. You idiots would try to rationalize anything to stand your ridiculous positions.
As far as the rocks? I'm not in the school. Just me and you with a knife. You're 8 to 10 feet away from me, and I have one of those big rocks in my hand, and some kind of protection in my left. You gonna come at me with just a knife?

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504349
Who said a gun isn't design to kill? You are making up straw men again.
Come on reef. Your rational for owning an AR isn't for hunting. You use it for sport targets and spewing out 100 rounds "just because". You use your myopic analogy, "Well there's just as many deaths in cars. Let's ban them." Cars are designed for killing, guns are.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504354
Bionic, I usually agree with you... and I'm not necessarily opposed to some level of gun "control", (not complete elimination). I believe that a motivated person will be able to get a gun on the black market. That being said, no one is going to take away my ability to protect my family from bad people.
Where the real issue lies, imho, is in peoples' right to carry guns on their person. In this instance, if one of the good guys had access to a weapon then they could probably have reduced the loss of life. Since there was nothing to level the playing field, there was no way to stop the bad guy. However I think that having a ccw was one of the primary problems that empowered an idiot like George Zimmerman to provoke an altercation that eventually led to the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Just looking at this atrocity in a vacuum, it would have helped to arm a good guy or two.
Having someone armed in this situation would be pointless. This carnage was over in less than 10 minutes. He broke into the main office, shot all the people in that room, moved down to the first classroom, emptied who knows how many clip on those kids, started to head towards the next classroom, heard the cops coming, turned the gun on himself and it was over. I don't care how many people could've been "packin'", as Darth even said, normal gun owners aren't trained mentally to handle a situation as this. Would you poke your head out into an area where you're hearing multiple gun shots going off? You don't know if there's just one individual or ten. If the guy burst open your door, would you just start shooting, or would you hesitate to see whose coming into the door? If you choose wrong and wait, you're dead if it's the "bad guy". If you still continue to shoot, and it ends up being a police officer or even one of your associates, then what?

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504381
Yep. Like I said up thread they have safes now with biometric locks. You put your finger on it and it reads your print and pops open. Going to pick one up and do a pistol Daniel Boone.
You could do the same thing in schools. There are employees who would be willing to go through the training you'd want them to have to be allowed to pull a gun at school. The problem is the sheeple who think guns are the root of all evil will never allow it.
I am not a member nor have I ever been a member of the NRA but they have a pretty good program for kids called Eddie Eagle. A friend tried to get his kid's school to do it and the brain dead administrator was horrified he would suggest the evil NRA should ever be allowed in HER school. The program is about gun safety. Not about how to safely use one (which wouldn't be a bad idea) but basically this is a gun, this is what it can do and this is why you should never touch one without your parents being with you. But Noooooooooooooooooooo, NRA isn't allowed in her school. Dumb B........
It's a parents responsibility and authority as to what they want their kids "endoctrined" with at a public school, not the school administrator's. Believe it or not, but not every single person in this country adheres to the 2nd Amendment, or wants anything to do with guns. I have friends who don't want to have anything to do with them, and don't want to be around them. The Administrator has to look at the interests of ALL students, not just those who think a program may be a benefit to the kids.

 

[crimzy]

Having someone armed in this situation would be pointless.  This carnage was over in less than 10 minutes.  He broke into the main office, shot all the people in that room, moved down to the first classroom,  emptied who knows how many clip on those kids, started to head towards the next classroom, heard the cops coming, turned the gun on himself and it was over.  I don't care how many people could've been "packin'", as Darth even said, normal gun owners aren't trained mentally to handle a situation as this.  Would you poke your head out into an area where you're hearing multiple gun shots going off?  You don't know if there's just one individual or ten.  If the guy burst open your door, would you just start shooting, or would you hesitate to see whose coming into the door?  If you choose wrong and wait, you're dead if it's the "bad guy".  If you still continue to shoot, and it ends up being a police officer or even one of your associates, then what?
I understand your point but you don't really know this. 10 minutes can be an eternity. Speculating in hindsight about what would have happened if the school officials had access to a gun, if the guy had a knife, if you had a rock, whatever... it's a pointless debate because we'll all spin our hypotheticals to support our point.
But we've seen atrocities before. Airline personnel are trained and equipped to deal with someone with a weapon. We can't take back what's been done but we can learn something. A gun in a safe and staff with some training, maybe an armed guard for $50k per year, a security camera... something...
Don't have such tunnel vision to believe that it's impossible for someone to have gotten the drop on this guy. Even if 1 or 2 lives were saved, it's worth it.
I don't feel like finding the link but I just read the story of the maniac in Oregon who killed 2 people before being confronted by a guy with a ccw... the guy ran away to off himself. How much worse could that have been?

 

[darthtang aw]

You know, bionic you are assuming you see and know of the knife before chaos ensues. A little over fifteen years ago I was stabbed twice. Involved an altercation with a friend of mine. He had gotten in a fight with a guy. The guy pulled a knife. Stabbed my friend four times, me twice and two other people. Then escaped and ran off in a busy club. The crowd parted for him. No one tried to stop him except the bouncers at the door and they were stabbed as well and he escaped from the area. Pool sticks, chairs, bottles, All around. Not one used or thrown. Why? One word......chaos!

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504384
Come on reef. Your rational for owning an AR isn't for hunting. You use it for sport targets and spewing out 100 rounds "just because". You use your myopic analogy, "Well there's just as many deaths in cars. Let's ban them." Cars are designed for killing, guns are.
Where is it written that the only reason we are allowed to own a gun is for hunting? Oh and by the way my new AR will be a 308, specifically for hunting.
I happen to like kicking back and letting fly with a few hundred rounds. Some people golf, Some skydive. I shoot. What's it to ya? My guns are responsible for fewer deaths than 0bama's gun running policy. Ban him

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504384
Come on reef. Your rational for owning an AR isn't for hunting. You use it for sport targets and spewing out 100 rounds "just because". You use your myopic analogy, "Well there's just as many deaths in cars. Let's ban them." Cars are designed for killing, guns are.
Your logic isn't rational.....Who cares, the gun didn't kill anyone....The idiot possessing the guns are the "bad" ones, but your answer to the whole ordeal is to ban all weapons of this nature.....Again why should all be punished for a few bad eggs....I or anyone else should be able to purchase any firearm we choose fit, even if it isn't for hunting, and so what if you do want to have a little fun and blow off a couple hundred rounds.....

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393788/27-dead-at-connecticut-elementary-school/100#post_3504387
It's a parents responsibility and authority as to what they want their kids "endoctrined" with at a public school, not the school administrator's. Believe it or not, but not every single person in this country adheres to the 2nd Amendment, or wants anything to do with guns. I have friends who don't want to have anything to do with them, and don't want to be around them. The Administrator has to look at the interests of ALL students, not just those who think a program may be a benefit to the kids.
You are exhibiting the same skull density the school administrator did. This isn't indoctrination, it's a generic safety program that teaches kids guns are not toys.
http://eddieeagle.nra.org/

 

[dragonzim]

Just wanted to throw out there that I enjoyed a great morning today knocking off a hundred rounds at a trap and skeete range with a buddy of mine using a semi auto 12 gauge shotgun. Should those be banned as well?