Beaslbob . . . .

[bang guy]

Originally posted by ReefNut
Assume I do not do ANY water changes, do not run a skimmer... etc. My tank evaps 2g a day on average so I add 14g a week of water. Assuming I was using tap water, how much "plant life" would it take to completely filter out all the impurities + keep up with the waste my fish are producing?
I have already stated the results of one scientific study( but we need more studies to confirm the results).
You will need to grow enough Caulerpa to export about 17 pounds of dried "plant life" per 45 gallons per year. In my experience a 5 gallon bucket full of Caulerpa produces about 1 pound of dried Caulerpa. Thats about 85 gallons of caulerpa per year for each 45 gallons of water volume.
My 900 gallon refugium is about 1/4 full of Caulerpa and produces about 5 gallons of Caulerpa a week. so.... my 900 gallon refugium is about right for a 135 gallon aquarium.
Unfortunately My display tank is 155 gallons so I must occationally do water changes.

 

[bang guy]

In case you were wondering what 5 gallons of Caulerpa looks like, this is NOT a small amount of algae.

 

[reefnut]

lol, hey... I only need to increase my fuge another 700 gallons and I'll be there :cheer:.

 

[reefnut]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
In case you were wondering what 5 gallons of Caulerpa looks like, this is NOT a small amount of algae.
I bet I don't get that much in 3-mnths.

 

[007]

Originally posted by cincyreefer
Do you have any proof of that?
Sure I do . . . read the local water report. It will list all the impurities present in the water that comes straight from the tap and in the amounts concentrated.
As for the plants removing them, I can assure you that plants are not "consuming" the major and minor metal ions present in tap water. They are not only incapable of doing so, it would kill them to absorb that much metal in the capacity that is being referred to. Look in any basic bio text book.

 

[007]

Look . . . . heres the deal with this thread and why I started it. I could care less how or why bob does what he does. If he enjoys his tank and his methodology works for him, then that is fan-F'ing-tastic.
I am just tired of seeing "add more plant life" in every thread as a solution to every problem from curing ich to purifying tap water. I specifically put this into the new hobbiest forum so that many of the people just starting in this hobby will see that the majority of people in this hobby think that bob's methods are flat out unconventional, but even beyond that why they are viewed as unconventional.

 

[007]

And yet on a third note . . .
Bob . . . so if macroalgaes do such a wonderful job of cleansing water of its impurities, then why is there so much pollution in america's waterways? Why are there water treatment facilities? Shouldnt the "plant life" be able to take care of that?
:notsure:

 

[schneidts]

I really hate to squeeze in here, but, I am very curious as to how plant life can effect the levels of metals present in all tap water. I love these threads, except for the occasional nastiness. Thanks to all of you for your interest in the hobby and sharing with the rest of us.

 

[squidd]

Comparisons between humans and fish have very little validity...
Here is another "comparison/analogy" that I believe is relevant to the discussion at hand...
I used to race Stock Cars...I would go to a track and pick a "gear ratio" based on my "experience" at several other tracks, in several other cities, over the course of many years...
Sure my car would "go around the track", but more often than not I wasn't reaching my goal, (which was to WIN), until I *as a "NEWBIE" to the "COARSE"* would ask around to find out *"what "GEARING" the "MAJORITY" of "WINNERS"were using"*
While I didn't always agree with the numbers I was given, ("what I was using should be fine")It wasn't until I got the correct *"RATIO"*that I would achieve my goal...
With out getting too technical here, often I could not achieve the correct "ratio" with "gearing" alone and would have to *"SUPPLEMENT"* by changing tire diameter as well...
The point is Plants will consume nutrients and purify Tap water (get you around the track) You can "argue" that all day...It's irrelavent>>>BUT if they are not in the correct "ratio" (900 gal lagoon/100's of miles chocked full of plant life with lots of sun light) they won't keep up with our tanks needs (to win) and will need to be "supplemented" with additional filtration methods.
It's not that Bob's advise is "bad" in and of itself, It's the lack volumetric comparison/"possible" need of supplemental filtration" that is misleading the newbie to NOT achieve the correct *"RATIO"* to *"WIN"* with their tank...
Hope I didn't loose too many of you here... :notsure:

 

[schneidts]

good analogy, squidd. I'm also curious as to why I always see reference to "a couple fish" in a tap water/plant tank and not a tank full of diverse and thriving coral. Just curious.:notsure:

 

[jedininja]

Originally posted by jc74
I have to agree that waterchanges are usually unnecessary in a well-established system. If it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.
A friend of mine has had a 125 gallon for five years and has NEVER done a water change. His fish and inverts have been doing great and the water is always crystal clear. He doesn't even test it! In fact, the three LFS I deal with rarely change or test their water, and they each have multiple reef tanks. I think some people fuss too much over their aqauariums and make too many unnecessary changes when they see a slight change in water quality. From what I've seen, the laid-back approach works just fine as long as you have a proper setup with good biological filtration.
It is not impossible to run a system with no water changes. But it is extremely difficult to do it right. I myself know of someone who does just this using RO waterin the begining, a skimmer, heavy xenia and macros in a large fuge, and daily dosing. But even though he does this, he would never recommend it to anybody else. A newbie can never sucessfully accomplish this. I myself do not dare attempt this now, and maybe not ever.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by ReefNut
There are statements made constantly that can not be "proven" (many of which are in this tread)... w/o some very technical equipment which non of us have.
Or we can sucessfully run a tank for 6 years and see what happens. Then what the technical equipment says is irrelevant.

 

[bang guy]

Perhaps if we ran 100 tanks that might be true. I don't put much faith in the results of one tank, including my own.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by jc74
I have to agree that waterchanges are usually unnecessary in a well-established system. If it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.
A friend of mine has had a 125 gallon for five years and has NEVER done a water change. His fish and inverts have been doing great and the water is always crystal clear. He doesn't even test it! In fact, the three LFS I deal with rarely change or test their water, and they each have multiple reef tanks. I think some people fuss too much over their aqauariums and make too many unnecessary changes when they see a slight change in water quality. From what I've seen, the laid-back approach works just fine as long as you have a proper setup with good biological filtration.

Well said and right on the point. How many of us have wound up chasing ph calcium alk when just letting it be would have corrected the problem?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I have already stated the results of one scientific study( but we need more studies to confirm the results).
...

The study bang is refering to measured existing tank water in reef tanks and those same things in plant life removed from those tanks. That simply does not measure the plants life's capacity to remove anything.
A much better method is to take known water and compare how plants affect that water vrs water with no plants.
Or you can just use tap water and put plants in it and see if the fish and inverts survive. They do and nitrAtes are vastly lowered and daytime ph stays high. Just as several posters have reported.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by 007
Sure I do . . . read the local water report. It will list all the impurities present in the water that comes straight from the tap and in the amounts concentrated.
As for the plants removing them, I can assure you that plants are not "consuming" the major and minor metal ions present in tap water. They are not only incapable of doing so, it would kill them to absorb that much metal in the capacity that is being referred to. Look in any basic bio text book.
You are correct plant life does not "consume" metal ions. But yu are simply wrong on this as everyone on this board using tap water and having thriving plant life can attest to. Plant life is one of the most effective ways of filtering all sorts of toxins and is used to clean up toxic dump sites as well as in water treatment plants. Fresh and saltwater plant life does the same thing.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
A much better method is to take known water and compare how plants affect that water vrs water with no plants.
Please do this Bob. I really can't afford very many more experiments and the one you're discussing is beyond my means.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
But yu are simply wrong on this as everyone on this board
Thank you for clearing that up. Now I know why nobody else in the world can keep corals like you can.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by 007
Look . . . . heres the deal with this thread and why I started it. I could care less how or why bob does what he does. If he enjoys his tank and his methodology works for him, then that is fan-F'ing-tastic.
I am just tired of seeing "add more plant life" in every thread as a solution to every problem from curing ich to purifying tap water. I specifically put this into the new hobbiest forum so that many of the people just starting in this hobby will see that the majority of people in this hobby think that bob's methods are flat out unconventional, but even beyond that why they are viewed as unconventional.
The reason I keep posting especially to the newbies is because the "conventional" methods are so unsucessful. We would have much happier hobbiests and more successful aquariums if each and every newbie started the plant ife first and then did the rest. The absolute worse thing you can do is right in the middle of establishing a system is add a cleaner crew to get rid of the Ugly algae. The newbies deserve better.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by 007
And yet on a third note . . .
Bob . . . so if macroalgaes do such a wonderful job of cleansing water of its impurities, then why is there so much pollution in america's waterways? Why are there water treatment facilities? Shouldnt the "plant life" be able to take care of that?
:notsure:
Obviously we need to add more plant life.

Obviously a factory dumping all sorts of stuff into a creek, is not the same a using tap water to establich an aquarium with plant life.
and from what I understand they are trying to preserve the wetland for exactly the reason you mention. They filter the runoff.