Beaslbob . . . .
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squidd
Active Member
Originally posted by Squidd
The point is Plants will consume nutrients and purify Tap water (get you around the track) You can "argue" that all day...It's irrelavent>>>BUT if they are not in the correct "ratio" (900 gal lagoon/100's of miles chocked full of plant life with lots of sun light) they won't keep up with our tanks needs (to win) and will need to be "supplemented" with additional filtration methods.
It's not that Bob's advise is "bad" in and of itself, It's the lack volumetric comparison/"possible" need of supplemental filtration" that is misleading the newbie to NOT achieve the correct *"RATIO"* to *"WIN"* with their tank...
Hope I didn't loose too many of you here... :notsure:
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by beaslbob
The reason I keep posting especially to the newbies is because the "conventional" methods are so unsucessful.
Had YOU followed conventional methods you wouldn't have killed your first couple of fish, your Mandarin wouldn't have died of an infection and all of your coral would still be alive.
How can you spew this nonsense when your way has failed you so many times?
You are blind to your failures. You keep blaming the death tank on everything EXCEPT your methods. This is just rediculous.
Please STOP poisoning the minds of new hobbiests until you admit to them all the death that you have caused in your tank.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by beaslbob
I had similiar problems with fish getting white sports and slowly deterioriating with heavy breathing then finally dieing.
Originally posted by beaslbob
fish died and decomposed for 4 days
Originally posted by beaslbob
Especially the finger which is now gone.
Originally posted by beaslbob
The wound never healed and the madrin only lasted a week longer.
This is all the result of not following conventional methods.
reefnut
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
The reason I keep posting especially to the newbies is because the "conventional" methods are so unsucessful.
birdy
Active Member
Thank you Bang Guy for Posting what you did, I try to give Bob a little leeway sometimes because I do believe that plants are important, but he refuses to give an inch in any of his ideas. I think most of us here, are constantly looking for ways to improve our methods of reefkeeping and when someone comes on here saying they have the only method to use and that proven ways of reefkeeping are uneccessary it just irritates me to no end. We have all wasted so much of our time, steering newbies away from some of Bob's ideas.
bigsteve
Member
How about mixing the "conventional" and the "Bob" method?
I'm not trying to defend bob, but I have yet to do a water change in my 29g... all I do is add tap water w/ some instant ocean, and my water parameters are staying very steady. Now.... I know I've only had this tank up for 3 months, but according to all the books I've read, I should've done about 15 water changes by now. I'm also using CC (which I would like to change out, but it came with the tank). My fish and inverts are happy as can be, my rock is growing nicely (although I am about to start adding calcium to get some better colors than green)... And I don't have any Macro's.
Now, I have been keeping all kinds of freshwater fish since I was old enough to reach the top of the tank, and most of this saltwater stuff is very new to me. But, I've learned a whole lot by reading every saltwater book I can get my hands on while my tank was cycling, and from there, I've kind of taken my own approach. So far it's working.... I'm about to try my hand at a couple more difficult fish. My two friends (brothers) who got me involved in the whole SW thing very rarely ever do water changes and their tanks are beautiful.
So, there are instances where bob's method will work. And honestly, it makes perfect sense to me. Don't mask the problem, correct the problem. But the conventional method is just as successful, as is the case with most people on this board.
So... to make a long post longer, everyone do what works for you, and just have fun...
I'm not trying to defend bob, but I have yet to do a water change in my 29g... all I do is add tap water w/ some instant ocean, and my water parameters are staying very steady. Now.... I know I've only had this tank up for 3 months, but according to all the books I've read, I should've done about 15 water changes by now. I'm also using CC (which I would like to change out, but it came with the tank). My fish and inverts are happy as can be, my rock is growing nicely (although I am about to start adding calcium to get some better colors than green)... And I don't have any Macro's.
Now, I have been keeping all kinds of freshwater fish since I was old enough to reach the top of the tank, and most of this saltwater stuff is very new to me. But, I've learned a whole lot by reading every saltwater book I can get my hands on while my tank was cycling, and from there, I've kind of taken my own approach. So far it's working.... I'm about to try my hand at a couple more difficult fish. My two friends (brothers) who got me involved in the whole SW thing very rarely ever do water changes and their tanks are beautiful.
So, there are instances where bob's method will work. And honestly, it makes perfect sense to me. Don't mask the problem, correct the problem. But the conventional method is just as successful, as is the case with most people on this board.
So... to make a long post longer, everyone do what works for you, and just have fun...
schneidts
Active Member
Well said Bang and co. I think the main moral of this thread is to realize that these opinions aren't the gospel. There is alot of great info/advice on these boards, but it's not a substitute for : 1. reading a book(s) on marine aqaurium basics,2. finding out all you can about certain species BEFORE you put them in your tank, 3. experience. I think most newbs can realize that 50 people say the same thing and 1, or a few, say the opposite. I'm not sure Bob's preaching is the problem as much as the easy/quick way mentality that some people have.
squidd
Active Member
Originally posted by schneidts
I'm not sure Bob's preaching is the problem as much as the easy/quick way mentality that some people have.
And the "justifications" used to go "cheap"...
I was not "reefing" in the 70s or 80s, but I have a collection of "Reef Keeping" newsletters (remember the internet was not around then either) from the early 80s (which immediately followed the 70s) that preached "If you want to do this right" (have a thriving tank) "It's gonna cost you"...
And this was not written by greedy LFS looking for "wizz-bang" dodads to increase profits, but by serious reefers trying to improve upon their own "failing" methods and gaining control of "stable" "healthy" somewhat "self sufficient" systems...
Many of them went on to form mfg. and distribution companies of equipment that was proven to show improvement over the methods of only a few years prior...
Much of the equipment we "push" today (skimmers,kalk and calcium reactors, "real" live rock and sand, ozonizers,and denitrifiers) were deemed not "in vogue" but "necessary" for proper reef management...
We may not "need" every wizz-bang dodad that comes down the line (and there are a lot of cheap copies and "junk" on the market) but we have a responsibility as conscientious aquariests to research and put together "systems" (including, but not limited to, "plant life") and "methods" that will provide healthy, stable, nurturing environments for the 'lifeforms" we are responsible for...
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
The real problem here is that all of us are passionate about our tanks. Gee a dump stupid tank.
Do "your" methods work. Well sure. Must be.
And every successful reef tank uses "my" method. After all They all have plant life in them. And nothing here on this thread or elsewhere, has any information on how much that plant life contributes to that system other than it really helps.
Even if "my" methods would not work with say calcium loving, deep water corals, not everyone starting out in this hobby immediately needs or even wants to keep those corals.
What the newbie needs is to establish the largest system they can afford. And by strating plant life as the very first thing, using tap water, only replaceing water that evaporates they can do that. And wind up with a system that fish and most corals survive and thrive in. Especially, if they want a Fish tank.
Then when they go on vacation, they simply leave and come back a week to two weeks later. and not have to hire a fish sitter, without worring about the tanks, and in the process be able to afford the vacation to begin with.
I am just sorry the reefers don't understand that.
Newbies: tanks do not have to be expensice, they do not require special water, they do not require constant tinkering, they do not require water changes. What they require is processing the waste products and allowing the tank itself to do the work for you.
Or tanks require a lot of expense to ~$1000 for a 55g, constant tinkering, special water, and plant life anyway. the choice is yours.
And BTW for $50.00 you can try "my" way or start with a larger system. Your tank your system.
Do "your" methods work. Well sure. Must be.
And every successful reef tank uses "my" method. After all They all have plant life in them. And nothing here on this thread or elsewhere, has any information on how much that plant life contributes to that system other than it really helps.
Even if "my" methods would not work with say calcium loving, deep water corals, not everyone starting out in this hobby immediately needs or even wants to keep those corals.
What the newbie needs is to establish the largest system they can afford. And by strating plant life as the very first thing, using tap water, only replaceing water that evaporates they can do that. And wind up with a system that fish and most corals survive and thrive in. Especially, if they want a Fish tank.
Then when they go on vacation, they simply leave and come back a week to two weeks later. and not have to hire a fish sitter, without worring about the tanks, and in the process be able to afford the vacation to begin with.
I am just sorry the reefers don't understand that.
Newbies: tanks do not have to be expensice, they do not require special water, they do not require constant tinkering, they do not require water changes. What they require is processing the waste products and allowing the tank itself to do the work for you.
Or tanks require a lot of expense to ~$1000 for a 55g, constant tinkering, special water, and plant life anyway. the choice is yours.
And BTW for $50.00 you can try "my" way or start with a larger system. Your tank your system.
squidd
Active Member
...Comparisons between humans and fish have very little validity...
Here's another "non-valid"
Human/Fish comparison...A few years back I ran a Hobby Shop...Radio Controlled cars,trucks and indoor and outdoor racetrack....
'Newbies" (kids) would come in and see the cars racing around the track at 60mph, stuck to the track and cutting the corners to the "N'th degree...
They would say "Boy, that's Cool, I want to do that" and the parents would ask "How Much"? And I would tell them "About $1000.00 for a competitive setup to run with the Big Boys"
They would say"Ouch, What other choices do I have"?..."Well, for a couple hundred you can get a 'Beginner Set-up' that you can option up to be competitive"
"Or you can go to Radio Shack and get a 'Toy Car' for $50.00"...
Could the "Toy Cars" keep up?...Not a chance...
Did they "Run across the floor"?... Yes, sort of...
Did the kids have fun with them?...Probably
But most importantly...Were the "Newbies" responsible for any "sacred/valued" LIFE FORM besides their own self indulgent pleasure?...NO
So when they got tired of "playing" and the cheap POS broke they could throw their "Dumb Stupid Tank (I mean car) in the trash and nobody really cared...
007
Active Member
And every successful reef tank uses "my" method. After all They all have plant life in them. And nothing here on this thread or elsewhere, has any information on how much that plant life contributes to that system other than it really helps.
My tank does not have plant life in it. Is it unsuccessful?
Even if "my" methods would not work with say calcium loving, deep water corals, not everyone starting out in this hobby immediately needs or even wants to keep those corals.
Two things, Ca loving corals are not deep water species. They are at the fore reef where light is brightest.
Secondly, you are absolutley right. Not everyone wants to keep those corals, but hey . . . that's not the point of this thread so stop changing it.
What the newbie needs is to establish the largest system they can afford. And by strating plant life as the very first thing, using tap water, only replaceing water that evaporates they can do that. And wind up with a system that fish and most corals survive and thrive in. Especially, if they want a Fish tank.
Actually, the "newbie" needs to set up the largest tank they can afford tomaintain . . . NOT the largest tank they can afford to set up.
How can you say that they will wind up with a system that MOST fish and corals survive? Why would someone want to set up a system where most things survive? I have yet to lose a fish and I have lost two corals in the past 18 months and I do not have a single plant in my tank (except for "The Don")
Then when they go on vacation, they simply leave and come back a week to two weeks later. and not have to hire a fish sitter, without worring about the tanks, and in the process be able to afford the vacation to begin with.
You're joking . . . I know it. Sorry, but ANY tank cannot go a week without topping off . . . let alone two weeks. This is just a stupid statement.
Newbies: tanks do not have to be expensice, they do not require special water, they do not require constant tinkering, they do not require water changes. What they require is processing the waste products and allowing the tank itself to do the work for you.
Bob . . . you are 100% right. NONE of these things are required . . . if this is the goal they are trying to achieve.
My tank does not have plant life in it. Is it unsuccessful?
Even if "my" methods would not work with say calcium loving, deep water corals, not everyone starting out in this hobby immediately needs or even wants to keep those corals.
Two things, Ca loving corals are not deep water species. They are at the fore reef where light is brightest.
Secondly, you are absolutley right. Not everyone wants to keep those corals, but hey . . . that's not the point of this thread so stop changing it.
What the newbie needs is to establish the largest system they can afford. And by strating plant life as the very first thing, using tap water, only replaceing water that evaporates they can do that. And wind up with a system that fish and most corals survive and thrive in. Especially, if they want a Fish tank.
Actually, the "newbie" needs to set up the largest tank they can afford tomaintain . . . NOT the largest tank they can afford to set up.
How can you say that they will wind up with a system that MOST fish and corals survive? Why would someone want to set up a system where most things survive? I have yet to lose a fish and I have lost two corals in the past 18 months and I do not have a single plant in my tank (except for "The Don")
Then when they go on vacation, they simply leave and come back a week to two weeks later. and not have to hire a fish sitter, without worring about the tanks, and in the process be able to afford the vacation to begin with.
You're joking . . . I know it. Sorry, but ANY tank cannot go a week without topping off . . . let alone two weeks. This is just a stupid statement.
Newbies: tanks do not have to be expensice, they do not require special water, they do not require constant tinkering, they do not require water changes. What they require is processing the waste products and allowing the tank itself to do the work for you.
Bob . . . you are 100% right. NONE of these things are required . . . if this is the goal they are trying to achieve.
jedininja
Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
Well said and right on the point. How many of us have wound up chasing ph calcium alk when just letting it be would have corrected the problem?
Bob, you just quote what you want and leave out the rest. I said that no water changes can be done, but I never said it is the best way and I said it shouldnever be recommneded to a newbie. I also said the person I knew doing it ran a DSB, skimmer, and a fuge. So really, it can not be compared to a system like yours. And you say that every system uses your method because it all has algae in it. No one sad algae was bad, just it is not the only method of filtration and most of us here do not want a tank full of calurpa.