bheron copper in tap water

[beaslbob]

in thread: https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/111286/is-tap-water-bad bheron posted:
...
BTW - the copper in my tap water ruined my tank, liquidated my inverts so I couldnt even a snail, and ruined my live rock. Fish were fine.
Bob - what's your position on copper in tap water? probably just throw some plants in there and they'll be fine?
Just thought this would make a good thread
Bheron, can you give me some more specifics as to how you absolutely know it was the copper and why i came from your tap water? What was the actual copper levels?

 

[bheron]

I'll post here - ignore the one I started in Reef tanks. This seems to be a better location for newbies anyway...

 

[bheron]

Ok, here's what happened - back in Oct 2002....
I had a somewhat weak tank going on, complete newbie. 75 gal with about 20lbs weak LR. 3 damsels and a cool cinnamon clown that enjoyed themselves and all the space. had a REALLY bad algae problem - green and red - which bought me to this site eventually.
I did the usual newbie and jumped the gun b/c we were having a party, so i wanted to impress!!!
I went out and bought a sea urchin and an anemone. I know!!! nuts. I also had another fish but cant rememebr what it was.
They lasted during the party so my friends thought i was the man. but within a few hours the anemone literally wilted away - couldnt hurt that i only had 110W of PC lights either, huh? urchin lost all spines and then died.
hmmm. so i went and bought some snails next b/c i thought they might help with algae all over the CC and LR - kind of like a thin blanket. within hours they all literally "liquidified". By this I mean not only did they die, but they disappeared!!! yep.
so....i found this site and someone said copper can do that. so i bought a copper test kit and sure enough it was loaded.
i then called in the water company and they came out and verified i have an unusally high level of copper in my tank but nothing harmful to me. i asked about my anemone and he just gave me a blank look
after finding the site and asking a ton of questions and searching i learned how detrimental even a trace of copper can be to inverts and LR. **keep in mind the tank and all equip was brand new in June and i never treated. all copper came from tap water.
well, there's more but those 10000 words should eb enough to start a conversation or ruin anyones time on this board!

 

[beaslbob]

from thread: https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/111757/copper-in-tap-water-i-started-over
you posted:
In 2002 I discovered, along with this wonderful site and a wealth of knowledge thereafre, copper in my tap water.
B/c I 1) filled the tank originally with tapwater (from my hose!!), 2) did topoffs with tapwater, and 3) did WC with tapwater, I found my only solution was to start over.
My 3 fish seemed to be fine. But I had zero growth on LR. I realized the problem when I couldn't keep a snail alive for more than 1 day. Oh, and like a pure newbie I put in an Anemone and Sea Urchin and saw them literally disappear within 12 hours.
Anyone else find this?
ok again how did you know it was copper from your tap water?
Let's analyze the above. you used tap water and the inverts died but the fish lived. Any number of things can cause that.
For instance high nitrates can cause the same thing.
In the new system using non tap water, do you have an active plant growth (even corraline or hair algae)?

 

[bheron]

sorry. i shouldve been more clear: i took my water to the LFS and all levels were fine except the copper.
also, as noted, the water company sent someone out specifically to test my tap water. the only thing that was a high was the copper.
4 fish had been living in there for about 4 months just fine. then i put in a snail and it dies. i put in another, it dies. several tries and the above two say it was the copper.
what else might it have been?

 

[lestregus]

high nitrates will not cause an anemone or a snail to liquify within a few hours.

 

[bheron]

thats what I found.
also, at one point I even thought i had a bad batch of Sea Salt. I thought there was a conspiracy against me when I bought a 2nd batch and nothing improved!
I'll tell you later what it took to get from there to where I am today!

 

[beaslbob]

woops you beat me to the post LOL.
this is my specific postion on copper from tap water.
Most tap water is specificlly treated to prevent the water from reacting with copper. Not sure of all the chemistry but have heard phosphates and/or calcium carbonate is added. phosphtes are plant food and calcium carbonates are buffers needed by our systems.
Further that the main source of high levels of copper is the copper plumbing. The obvious source is the hot water heater. And from what i hear the hot water pipes. From what I hear newer homes (from the last 5 years) have pvc plumbing at least on the cold water pipes.
Copper require some time to react with water. Obviously again the hot water heater where the water is heated. the heat also increases the reaction.
After some time like months to years, the pipes from a coating that buffers the water from the copper.
So to reduce copper from your tap water:
1) insure you take a bath or wash clothes each day (flushes out the hot water heater)
2) use cold water for tank water.
3) run the water for a minute or so (flushes out the pipes).
Now getting back to you specific system. You had nitrates, toxins from the hose, no plant life (the LR was dead). My suggestions to you would have been.
add plant life (gee everyone was expecting that LOL)
Simply put if copper was killing your inverts and LR there is an excellent chance you would have had trouble ar at least taken some time to establish a thriving plant growth. Copper from what I hear does slow plant growth as well as inverts.
As the plant life got established not only the copper would have been reduced but also any toxins from the hose and nitrates as well.
If you got to the place where the slime was reduced then you know the nitrates would have been consumed by the new plant growth. I highly suspect the nitrates were never controlled.
When the anemone died the plant life would have been there to consume the ammonia cloud and helped reestablish the system.
Or even better the anemone would not have died to begin with because the nitrates would have been near 0.0.
So basdically using the cold water, runing it for a minute, not using the garden hose, and first establishing a thriving plant growth, would probably avoided your problems.
Now when you restarted the system, what did you do differently other than the tap? Well I presume you didn't run the new water throught the garden hose. But did you establish a refugium?

 

[beaslbob]

understand, i have to go home also. we are cross posting.
Perhaps others can help as well.
c ya

 

[blackomne]

I don't know about all that but I do remember in college doing an experiment for a prof that involved feeding a group of fryling fish high amounts of copper in their diets. Their die off rate was higher and their growth was slower.

 

[reefnut]

So to reduce copper from your tap water: Buy a RO/DI filter and stop worrying about it...

 

[bheron]

thanks for the feedback.
lets see if I can further answer your questions, and you can get back to me tomorrow..
- yep, no doubt the toxins from the hose were bad. i can't beleive i did that now looking back!!
- also, no dobt nitrates weren't controlled that well. i did test for them and finally got into the routine (after finding this site) of doing water changes with RO water from Target to help clean out the trates and phosphates. i also ran some kind of phosphate remover.
- nope, no fuge whatsoever.
But, here's the question I still have: ok, so lets say the copper is "reduced" like you said, even significantly. I still think i would've had a problem simply b/c even a TRACE of copper will hurt the tank. so, unless they're completely removed, you're in trouble.
Furthurmore, i researched and to my dismay found that its almost impossible to remove all traces of copper. some said you could run it bare with just RODI water and some types of chemicals for 6 months. Alot of poeple said even the silicone could absorb the copper and release it later - this is under much debate. Bottom line I spoke with a chemist by profession who has fish tanks and he confirmed that "possibly" the silicone could absorb it.
So, what did I do and what was done differently this time aruond...
First, i had to get rid of all LR. I heard from too many people it could release it back into the system at some point. Not worth the risk.
Second, I completely cleaned out the tank - subtrate gone, equipment, etc. I read, and had confirmed from the chemist, that hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) could pull the copper out of the silicone. I cleaned the tank and all equipment first with RO water and vinegar, and then with a mixture of the acid. and scrubbed with sterlized scurbbers and gloves. i even soaked all equipment in it (i think this might not have been good for my poweheads). I chose not to reseal the tank and now wish I did.
Now, in my new tank (same tank and some equipment) I started fresh by buying an RODI 75GPD purifier. So not a drop of other water has gone into my tank. I also have a 25 gallon sump and seperate 18 gallong fuge with DSB. the fuge also has some LR and a nice batch of Chaeto (sp) growing in it. The tank has LS and LR and a nice cleaner grew doing nicely. Alsdo have a CBS, 2 peppermints, an emerald crab, an atlantic cuke, and a fighting conch in there. all doing beautifully.
this weekend i am taking the 1 hour trip to buy my first fish.
beaslebob, let me know what you think?

 

[rbmount]

My thought---RO/DI good.....Tap bad.

 

[blackomne]

Thinking I will add Copper to test items for my comparison study if I can find a kit here in town. Laters All

 

[bang guy]

I just looked up the Cu content of water in the public water system of Philadelphia. Their test specified an approximate level of 1.0ppm.
That's a really round number so I suspect it's an estimate.
Let's pretend it's accurate (it could easily be accurate). The EPA standard for Copper in public drinking water is 1.3ppm.
NSW levels of Copper are 0.00025 so the Philadelphia tap water is 4000 (yep, four-thousand) times higher than Natural Sea Water. And, that is after being treated but BEFORE going into a house .
Perhaps Algae can sequester this. I know for a fact it can sequester some of it. I strongly doubt that it takes it out of the water column instantly or even very quickly. I think with enough algae all of it can be eventually sequestered but I also believe that you would have to pack it in so dense that you wouldn't have room for anything else, no fish, no rocks, not corals. But then, what's the point??
So, back to the estimate. Suppose it's really only 0.5 Well, that's still 2000 times the level it should be for a reef aquarium. I am not at all comfortable with those numbers. I don't believe you should be comfortable either.
Bang

 

[cincyreefer]

It's all meaningless unless you know what exactly the test kit was testing for and how the tests were being done. Odds are the test kit your lfs used test for chelated copper, which i doubt was in your system at high amounts. As for the water company... it could have been a number of things. Also, do you know exactly what levels the copper tested at?

 

[beaslbob]

bheron:
First removing all copper is not necessary nor desirable. If you want to see copper in water stir you ro/di with a copper wire.
Now lets summarize what you did.
you failed with a tank that used tap water and not plant life.
You are succeeding with a tank that uses ro/di water and plant life.
Do you see where I am comming from? Your experience does not mean your tap water was at fault. Your second system will be much better because of the plant life.
It is my firm opinion that the plant life not the input water will make the difference. Especially, with the way you used your original tap water.
I predict that you will have to dose calcium and many other things to keep you ph alk and calcium, mag in line. That is directly tied to the input water being stripped of those essential trace elements. Further, you have no assurance that water at at the local department store meets any federal standards. Or that the machine's filters are ever replaced or are functioning. Plus with no clorine it may be loaded with all types or desease causing bacteria.
I wish you the best tank ever. And to answer your original question for the board. It is my position the copper and other heavy ions are filtered out by plants. Further that tap water contains many beneficial trace elements and plant food to insure a successful reef or FO tank. And of course it helps to use the cold water, in newer construction and run the water for a minute to flush out the pipes. And not to use a garden hose as well.
edit: just reread your long post. I see that now you are using an ro/di unit. And not using the target water. So now you have the ro/di unit itself to worry about. Another thing in the system to fail. Just be sure you check the membrains, aerate the water, don't get any houshold cleaners in the collected water and so on. All of which is avoided by using tap.

 

[bigsteve]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I just looked up the Cu content of water in the public water system of Philadelphia. Their test specified an approximate level of 1.0ppm.
That's a really round number so I suspect it's an estimate.
Let's pretend it's accurate (it could easily be accurate). The EPA standard for Copper in public drinking water is 1.3ppm.
NSW levels of Copper are 0.00025 so the Philadelphia tap water is 4000 (yep, four-thousand) times higher than Natural Sea Water. And, that is after being treated but BEFORE going into a house .
Perhaps Algae can sequester this. I know for a fact it can sequester some of it. I strongly doubt that it takes it out of the water column instantly or even very quickly. I think with enough algae all of it can be eventually sequestered but I also believe that you would have to pack it in so dense that you wouldn't have room for anything else, no fish, no rocks, not corals. But then, what's the point??
So, back to the estimate. Suppose it's really only 0.5 Well, that's still 2000 times the level it should be for a reef aquarium. I am not at all comfortable with those numbers. I don't believe you should be comfortable either.
Bang

Bang- You're one helluva good RO/DI salesman.... after that little tidbit, I'm going to check on some units on my next day off. I didn't realize that natural sea water was that low for elements. And I thought my water was ok.... :nope:
(And while I'm out, I'm definitely getting some southdown to replace my crappy crushed coral.... I hate it)

 

[lestregus]

beaslbob - "First removing all copper is not necessary nor desirable."
:scared: i can not believe you just said that...this is the most ridiculous thing that i think i have ever heard *anyone* including you say about salt water aquariums. To inverts copper is on of the most toxic substances you can have in your tank. before reading this last post i thought that you actually believed the stuff that you preached...now you have even lost that little bit of respect.. i think a mod should remove bob's last post, and if i were a mod i would remove him and ban his entire IP cluster.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by Lestregus
:scared: i can not believe you just said that...this is the most ridiculous thing that i think i have ever heard *anyone* including you say about salt water aquariums.
Lestregus - I completely disagree. I've heard him say much worse.
Bang