Cindy Sheehan

[socal57che]

I just realized that I didn't mention Cindy in that post, and this was a thread about her. I don't know her so I refuse to talk about her. Even if I did know her....I still wouldn't talk about her. It's not nice. If everyone was just a little nicer to each other we wouldn't need threads like this in our nice little fish captor world. :happyfish

 

[rpick]

socal57,
very well written reply.
the only thing i disagree with you is the falsehood of 'fight them there so we don't have to fight them here'. they ARE here. They CAN get into the us with no problem through holes in the borderand ports. look how we foiled the millenium plot. a canadian border gaurd was alert and a terrorist was stopped only because she had a gut feeling.
with our first responders in iraq, we are thin protecting ourselves here. our government is not giving them the money they need. we are putting all of our money into iraq and what are we getting? more terrorists, perpetual war, cuts in domestic programs to help the poor and elderly, deficits that our children and our children's children will pay the price, losing respect in the world community, and much more problems.
also, if we're to send our troops to war, the least we can do is give them the proper equipment to fight it, and the proper medical care for those who've been injured. if our government supports the war, why did they try to cut their medical benefits, why did they try to cut their combat pay, why would they even think of putting into the bill for credit card slavery (bankrupcy reform bill) that families with spouses over there don't get any break even though their income has been cut in half?
i would have no problem fighting to keep our children safe, but this is a war of choice, not iminent threat. saddam was hated by the other mid east leaders and by osama. he was a toothless leader. his country was bankrupt, sanctions worked. talk to the us companies who were still holding business with iraq during the sanctions like Haliburton.
to reefraff,
when you start calling your advisary names, you lose the debate.
stop watching fox news. she never said it was a pleasant meeting. she never said that the us is not worth fighting for. you may have heard something that, in your state of mind, that's how you interpreted it. the un placed sanctions because saddam refused to allow the inspecters to complete their job, not because saddam had weapons, but because saddam has always underestimated the us resolve. if you broke the law, would you be happy if strangers came into your house to verify that you can't break it again? not me. besides, they were kicked out because saddam caught them spying.
sanctions worked. the other nations did not say that they do have wmd's like rumsfeld did. they said that they were not sure. all bush had to do was to let the inspectors finish their job, then he would have had the world community on his side. or maybe, just maybe it would have been found that there were no weapons.
our intelligence in the mid east, especially in countries like iraq, iran, and somalia are, at best spotty, and at worst, non-existent. we relied on an iraqi whose only goal was to return to the country and replace saddam, which, by the way was the administration's first choice before they found the truth about him.
we gave osama what he wanted. he goaded us into this.

 

[socal57che]

Dear rpick,
I never said fight them there, not here.
I live in southern CA and pass the border patrol station almost daily. It's a joke. Usually not even checking cars. In the past 2 months I was not required to stop one single time. No officers were present. The fight is here. The man stopped at the Canadian border with explosives a while back was en route to LAX (my back yard). Many of my Oceanside neighbors went to Arizona to help patrol and show the American people how bad it really was. Then they went to the area from San Diego to the AZ border. I am very well aware of the number of people pouring into this country illegally. My family was processed through Ellis Island, and I expect others to follow proper channels or be deported. Maybe we should all spend the time wasted on message boards doing something proactive to make a difference in our own safety. I think I'll contact the minutemen and ask what I can do to help. Maybe the Border Patrol has a volunteer program. Lets do something that actually helps.

Sincerely
Phil

 

[reefraff]

Oh get serious. So the UN was starving out the Iraqi people with sanctions because they just werent sure? If they didn't think he had WMD why would they need to enforce the inspections? One of the biggest errors made in this whole deal was the assumption that Hussein was not insane. Everyone thought he still had and was working on WMD because that is the way he wanted it. And another thing. If you are convicted of a crime and placed on parol or probation the police can and will come into your house to make sure you don't break the law again. The cease fire that Saddam agreed to in stopping Gulf war part l placed certain restrictions and obligations on Iraq as a condition of not blowing his country back to the stone age. No fly zones and inspections were among the conditions that were agreed to and then violated giving the coalition the right to resume the war at any time.
Maybe you should start watching Fox News.
From the Vacaville Reporter
"Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture.
"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy said after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith."
The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something. They also spoke of their faith.
While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers, sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.
Here is a pretty fair minded article about her.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/rubin081705.htm
Oh, I guess you didn't know who said this in a speech
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Senator Hillary Clinton in 2002.
Do you think Bush sexed up the intellegence she saw? I supposed she never discussed any of this with her husband before making the speech.

 

[keleighr]

Ok here comes the hate mail but oh well it's my opinion.
First of all Cindy Sheehan is a grieving mother. I am sure that in the beginning when she met with Bush it may have seemed like she was heard. But you know what..reality set in. She probably at that point started reading, viewing and anything else she could do to understand why this war was supposed to be about and Read or saw what it was really about. OIL. Point blank oil and the greedy folks who wanted it.
I knew the day the planes went into the Twin Towers that we were going to go to war. People in my job were like no way, you are over re acting.
Does anyone know what the first thing that was flown out when they finally took over the largest air port in Iraq. Give you one guess???
Yep you totally guessed it OIL. I remember watching the news that day it flew out and thinking WOW this is what this was all for.
Instead of just watching a documentary go online as well as watch Fareheint 9-11. Funny how Bush's family were friends with some of these folks that came over and took out one of our NAtions top financial buildings........mmmmmmmmm
Funny how it was America $$$ that funded Bin Laden to get the fianancial resources it took for him to do it. Also Bin Laden made tons of $$$$ in our stock market......amazing huh.
Bush is killing this country and we are allowing it. Don't be mad because a grieving mom has decided to front him out. She may be doing some of it the wrong way but this is a woman taking on the Government that REFUSES to send their own CHILDREN over to fight the war.
ONE person in congress has there child in the armed forces. Why didn't Bush have his two girls Sign up right away to show their support for this country???
My dad was in Vietnam and he said when he came bcak he was looked at as a murderer and basically a nothing. My dad didn't ask to go he was told to go. Wheter he felt it was wrong to go or not.. he went.

 

[rpick]

keleigher,
you said things i did not want to get into. thanks. i ask everyone in this thread who is pro war a few questions. do you have any children there? fathers? mothers?spouses? why did you not enlist to go fight?
the bush family has close ties to saudi royalty. that's where most of the terrorists came from on 9/11. they have close ties to the bin laden family. who created osama? the us government did when they supported his rebellion in afghanastan. we trained him.
hillary clinton is not on my top 10 list.
the un was not starving the iraqi people, saddam was he was skimming money off the top for his own enrichment.
they needed to enforce the sanctions because they did not complete their mission.
saddam is not insane. he is just plain evil and a calculating man. unfortunately like i said, he underestimated the us. an insane person will lash out at anyone without thinking of what may happen.
the police cannot come into your house unannounced. they can come to your house unannounced but they cannot come in unless you invite them in or they have a search warrent, or probable cause. the (un)patriot act unfortunately may give them the authority.
socal, i misread you then. but you do make good points.
one of the major frames for conservitism is 'take responsibility'. the intelligence was fixed and now we have to pay for it and i hope this administration will too.
bush (nero) is fiddling while america is burning. we are broke because of this war and tax cuts for the super rich. he took our money ( yes. OUR money like he said in 2000) and gave it to his friends. i say send them and their kids there to fight.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by rpick
one of the major frames for conservitism is 'take responsibility'. the intelligence was fixed and now we have to pay for it and i hope this administration will too.
bush (nero) is fiddling while america is burning. we are broke because of this war and tax cuts for the super rich. he took our money ( yes. OUR money like he said in 2000) and gave it to his friends. i say send them and their kids there to fight.

I hate to imagine how much money his pals have made off this war.

 

[chipmaker]

Well after just retiring from a millitary career spanning 31 years 10 months of active duty time spread between 10 years with the U S Army, and the balance with the USAF, all I can say is I did what i was told to do, by my superiors and did what had to be done to the best of my ability, right or wrong. Being military is part and parcel of accepting whats told and doing it. If it means going to Iraq and kicking Sadams butt because of the color of toilet paper he used was not suitable to my commander and chief so be it. As for Cindy Sheehan, all I view her as is a whiney old lady who shold have taken issues up with her sone when he "volunteered" to be in the military...not after the fact actions because she became one of the mothers who lost a son. She knew full well what his being in the military would entail, she and he both gambled on it and unfortunately they lost..She needs a life as she is more of a pain in regular television scheduling than the most assinine commercials could ever be........I view her as yet another typical Hanoi Jane Fonda......that is doing more damage to her country than she is doing good for any puirpose in her own little mind. I extend an invitation to her to leave and give up her citizen ship if she is so disgusted with things, she needs to get over it its life and quite frankly what was done needed to be done.......Bush IMHO does good and bad just like all other former presidents, but at least he is not a womanizer like Slick Willy, and yes I did vote for slick Willey one time as well......Bushs best interests lie with america and is oging to do what he can with his hands being tied for the most part by congress but this whole mess is not solely Bushs fault....congress itself is nothing but a bunch of back stabing switch hitters that go with public opinion not whats got to be done. at the expense of a possible conflict or loss of life. America is much to soft and its about time someone was at the reins willing to do what needs to be done. As much as I hate violence, I am happy to see France is getting her due as well.......whats the old say8ing what goes around comes around or don;t throw stones if you live in a glass house...IMNSHO, I could care less if France got burned, and looted till nothing was left but a scorch mark on the european continent.

 

[keleighr]

Originally Posted by chipmaker
Well after just retiring from a millitary career spanning 31 years 10 months of active duty time spread between 10 years with the U S Army, and the balance with the USAF, all I can say is I did what i was told to do, by my superiors and did what had to be done to the best of my ability, right or wrong. Being military is part and parcel of accepting whats told and doing it. If it means going to Iraq and kicking Sadams butt because of the color of toilet paper he used was not suitable to my commander and chief so be it. As for Cindy Sheehan, all I view her as is a whiney old lady who shold have taken issues up with her sone when he "volunteered" to be in the military...not after the fact actions because she became one of the mothers who lost a son. She knew full well what his being in the military would entail, she and he both gambled on it and unfortunately they lost..She needs a life as she is more of a pain in regular television scheduling than the most assinine commercials could ever be........I view her as yet another typical Hanoi Jane Fonda......that is doing more damage to her country than she is doing good for any puirpose in her own little mind. I extend an invitation to her to leave and give up her citizen ship if she is so disgusted with things, she needs to get over it its life and quite frankly what was done needed to be done.......Bush IMHO does good and bad just like all other former presidents, but at least he is not a womanizer like Slick Willy, and yes I did vote for slick Willey one time as well......Bushs best interests lie with america and is oging to do what he can with his hands being tied for the most part by congress but this whole mess is not solely Bushs fault....congress itself is nothing but a bunch of back stabing switch hitters that go with public opinion not whats got to be done. at the expense of a possible conflict or loss of life. America is much to soft and its about time someone was at the reins willing to do what needs to be done. As much as I hate violence, I am happy to see France is getting her due as well.......whats the old say8ing what goes around comes around or don;t throw stones if you live in a glass house...IMNSHO, I could care less if France got burned, and looted till nothing was left but a scorch mark on the european continent.

I was with you until you said Bush was in this for the american people.
BS
He is in it for himself and what amount of $$ that he is getting from it.
Everyone knows what they are getting into when they join up. But it still doens't make it for the wrong reasons.
Bush wanted to cut health benefits for the militaries dependents.
They dock the amount of days lost from your last paycheck when you are killed.
So if your payday is on a Friday and you doed on Wednesday....guess what....your fa,ily doesn't get the last two days of pay cause you are dead and unable to work those last days.
I watched a show about the military and they asked 40 recruits to raise their hands to two seperate questions.
1. How many joined up to get the money for college?
2. How many joined up to protect their country?
38 raised their hands for the college funds.
That meant 2 were their to serve their country to protect. 2
I am honored that you served this country for so many years and were willing to give up your life for us.
But they are over there for the wrong reasons.
When Bush sends his girls over and puts them on the front line then I will say he is in this for other reasons.

 

[keleighr]

Originally Posted by rpick
keleigher,
you said things i did not want to get into. thanks. i ask everyone in this thread who is pro war a few questions. do you have any children there? fathers? mothers?spouses? why did you not enlist to go fight?
the bush family has close ties to saudi royalty. that's where most of the terrorists came from on 9/11. they have close ties to the bin laden family. who created osama? the us government did when they supported his rebellion in afghanastan. we trained him.
hillary clinton is not on my top 10 list.
the un was not starving the iraqi people, saddam was he was skimming money off the top for his own enrichment.
they needed to enforce the sanctions because they did not complete their mission.
saddam is not insane. he is just plain evil and a calculating man. unfortunately like i said, he underestimated the us. an insane person will lash out at anyone without thinking of what may happen.
the police cannot come into your house unannounced. they can come to your house unannounced but they cannot come in unless you invite them in or they have a search warrent, or probable cause. the (un)patriot act unfortunately may give them the authority.
socal, i misread you then. but you do make good points.
one of the major frames for conservitism is 'take responsibility'. the intelligence was fixed and now we have to pay for it and i hope this administration will too.
bush (nero) is fiddling while america is burning. we are broke because of this war and tax cuts for the super rich. he took our money ( yes. OUR money like he said in 2000) and gave it to his friends. i say send them and their kids there to fight.

Thank you for saying so.
It's easier to say go "whine" some where else when it isn't your own.

 

[rpick]

i find it very interesting that conservatives still blame congress for most things. it's a great line, but i find it curious they still blame congress even though they have the whitehouse and control ( for now) of both houses of congress.
a mother can only advise their children on what to do, but also to support their decisions like cindy sheehan did.
i do agree that congress sucks on both parties. the christian fundamentalists have hijacked the republican party just like osama has hijacked islam.
the dc democrats have no backbone to fight for whats right.
it certainly is time to clean house (pun intended)

 

[rpick]

i have the highest respect for our troops. when they join, they know what they're getting into and the risks. i feel that everyone coming out of highschool should be required to serve 2 years with the promise to pay for their college education. this will give them self respect, the opportunity for a good job and may even lower crime.
i support our troops. i want them to have the best equippment that our money can buy. why send our troops into battle with humvies with no armour plating, no clear mission, and not enough troops to keep the peace?
i support our troops. i want them to get a proper meal instead of the spoiled food that kbr/halibuton was handling.
i support our troops. i want their spouses left behind to get breaks on their monthly bills since their income is cut in half. corporate america should support them with understanding that bills may be late because of this. they still need to pay but have it deffered.
i support our troops. i want them to get the best medical care that money can buy. i do not want their medical benefits cut and hospitals shut down.
you cannot compare cindy sheehan with jane fonda. jane went to north vietnam and socialized with the enemy. she now realizes what she did. cindy sheehan wants to speak to bush, but since all of the reasons for being there are proven false, he cannot give her any answers. an honorable man would meet and talk even if they disagree. you can have a debate and still respect their view and THEN get on with your life. bush considers anyone that does not agree with him a traitor.
i put this on my original reply:
a patriot does not stifle freedom
a patriot does not stifle debate
a patriot does not stifle dissent
but a patriot must stand against those who would.
there was no real debate, protestors are being herded and taken away, the unpatriot act has taken part of our freedom.
war is peace
ignorace is strength

 

[snitchgaga]

In East Oakland, you could lose your life over snitching.

 

[reefraff]

Sheehan is a grieving mother no doubt but that doesn't excuse her lies about the meeting with Bush. I could see her having a change of heart over being satisfied with the meeting or feeling good about it but she changed her story about the whole substance of the meeting. She is now pushing a political agenda pure and simple. What she is doing is every bit as useful to the terrorists as what Fonda did sitting on that gun in North Vietnam.
As for watching Farenhite 911 even the NY Times called Moore on his lies in that film. When the Times comes off as defending Bush that says something about Moore's credibility, or complete lack thereof. Remember it was Moore who said "I would never on a single share of stock" and then had it disclosed that he doesn't own a single share, he owns thousands of shares. That is how he plays fast and loose with the truth.
We are not in this war because of lies. We are in it because of mistakes dating back decades. Even Ted Kennedy talked about Iraq's WMD programs in speeches he made against going into Iraq so for the Dems to come out now and say Bush lied about any of the intel is BS. Hilary Clinton has made the very same assertions Bush has. She can base her assertions on info from both the Clinton and Bush administration just as many other Democrats have. Do you honestly think Bill Clinton would have ever let her make those statements if he didn't know they were true.
You want to have an HONEST debate about the war, one that wont embolden the terrorists? Don't start out from the primise that Bush lied about WMD because he didn't. Don't start talking about our troops murdering thousands of inncent Iraqis because it didn't happen. You want to ask if the war was worth it, that is a legitimate question. Promoting pulling the troops out now is a legitimate position. Criticizing the way Bush has handled the war is also fair game but keep the debate based on reasonable facts and legitimate questions.
C- Ya

 

[keleighr]

Wow
Look at Bush's history (ALL OF THEM) that alone speaks volumes.
I would rather someone lie about owning stocks than someone lying about the reason we are fighting a war.
Just because The New York Times says something about someone isn't going to make jump ship either.
I go by people's actions and who they surround themselves with.
Notice you didn't comment on the fact that he surrounded himself with the enemy and "Keeping your Enemies closer" crap isn't gonna fly here.
Cause the video of him receiving the news that his "friends" attacted the Twin Towers is worht a thousand words. Sat there with a book UPSIDE down not saying anything for 15 minutes.
He is an idiot, will alwyas be an idiot and the people who voted for him were idiots.
Again when Bush puts his own children at risk, then we can talk about the "real" reasons we are fighting this war.
Cause it sure aren't for the Americans.
Bring our Men and Women Home.

 

[reefraff]

About the only part of your post that made any sense was the not believing the Times about Moore's BS. There are numerous other sources available to discredit the false assertions made in his film but you wouldn't believe them either because they don't reach the conclusion you would like them to, What can I say. Time to invoke rule #43 "Never argue with a moron, they will only drag you down to their level and overcome you with experience"
Have a nice day.

 

[rpick]

there you go again reefraff with the names.
cindy did not chage her story. she did not consort with the enemy. dissent is what this country was built upon. she came to ask the president why, bush's refusal to meet with her started the movement. she did not want the attention at first but found that the anti war movement was given a jump start. her agenda was to get some answers. the far right demonized her from the start. that is their style. character assasination instead of dealing with the issues.
the new york times is not a liberal newspaper. therte is no such thing as the 'liberal media. consider the person who wrote the article on the movie. what was their agenda? politics?mainstream media has become lapdogs to this administration. cnn msnbc, all lapdogs.
this administration cherry picked the intel. when he gave it to the house, he left out the facts that our int was not sure, so congress did not have the same info he had. the resolution in the un told saddam to allow the inspectors back in or face serious consequences. congress passed a resolution authorizing him to go to war as a last resort. the democrats were afraid of being hit with being unpatriotic. they voted for it trustuing bush. john edwards just admitted that his vote was a mistake. other democrats will follow.
bush spied on the un and found he would not get the votes for war which was supposed to be the next step before going in with the world community behind him. he did not allow the inspectors to complete their job because they were not able to find anything.
the terrorists don't need to be enbolden, bush did plenty for them. he did exactly what osama said he would. invade an arab country.
bill clinton does not have control over his wife. to say that he would not allow her, that says that you believe that women cannot make their own decisions and that men need to control them. we're learning a lot about you.
innocent women and children are being killed just because they get in the way of our convoys. not everyone in abu graib is an insurgent. bush fudged the intel. thats what the debate is about. his buddy tony blair may be impeached for becomming bush's lapdog.
fox new has trained you well.
one last question. if your in the age bracket to enlist, why don't you? do you have any immediate family over there? or do you have 'other commitments' like cheney?
you will have my support and wish you well and a trip home asap.

 

[keleighr]

Originally Posted by reefraff
About the only part of your post that made any sense was the not believing the Times about Moore's BS. There are numerous other sources available to discredit the false assertions made in his film but you wouldn't believe them either because they don't reach the conclusion you would like them to, What can I say. Time to invoke rule #43 "Never argue with a moron, they will only drag you down to their level and overcome you with experience"
Have a nice day.

I bet the MORON voted for Bush.
Didn't ask you to reply to anything I had to say either.
Obvioulsy the only thing that sense to you is STUPIDITY.
NExt time you give your opinion, DON'T.
Cause it just shows what a Dumba** you are.

 

[reefraff]

I am not the one who calls people who disagree with me idiots in posts, but I will respond when someone does and directs it at me. You go ahead and follow your leaders blindly. Maybe by the time you are old enough to drive you will have enough sense not to believe everything you hear.
I voted for Bush twice and if he could run again and the dems put up the same class of candidate they did in this election I would vote for him again.
I am done with you 2
Happy reefing

 

[keleighr]

Originally Posted by rpick
there you go again reefraff with the names.
cindy did not chage her story. she did not consort with the enemy. dissent is what this country was built upon. she came to ask the president why, bush's refusal to meet with her started the movement. she did not want the attention at first but found that the anti war movement was given a jump start. her agenda was to get some answers. the far right demonized her from the start. that is their style. character assasination instead of dealing with the issues.
the new york times is not a liberal newspaper. therte is no such thing as the 'liberal media. consider the person who wrote the article on the movie. what was their agenda? politics?mainstream media has become lapdogs to this administration. cnn msnbc, all lapdogs.
this administration cherry picked the intel. when he gave it to the house, he left out the facts that our int was not sure, so congress did not have the same info he had. the resolution in the un told saddam to allow the inspectors back in or face serious consequences. congress passed a resolution authorizing him to go to war as a last resort. the democrats were afraid of being hit with being unpatriotic. they voted for it trustuing bush. john edwards just admitted that his vote was a mistake. other democrats will follow.
bush spied on the un and found he would not get the votes for war which was supposed to be the next step before going in with the world community behind him. he did not allow the inspectors to complete their job because they were not able to find anything.
the terrorists don't need to be enbolden, bush did plenty for them. he did exactly what osama said he would. invade an arab country.
bill clinton does not have control over his wife. to say that he would not allow her, that says that you believe that women cannot make their own decisions and that men need to control them. we're learning a lot about you.
innocent women and children are being killed just because they get in the way of our convoys. not everyone in abu graib is an insurgent. bush fudged the intel. thats what the debate is about. his buddy tony blair may be impeached for becomming bush's lapdog.
fox new has trained you well.
one last question. if your in the age bracket to enlist, why don't you? do you have any immediate family over there? or do you have 'other commitments' like cheney?
you will have my support and wish you well and a trip home asap.

Ok you are in my book of heroes!!!!!!!
Thank you
Thank you!!!!