Do you believe in evolution?

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Clown Boy
Believing in Millions of Years
Does Not Fit with Romans
Many Christians claim to believe not only this verse from Romans but also something that
says exactly the opposite. They want to believe that the earth is very old and that the days of
the creation week were not really days but long periods of time. They say that during those
long periods of time--—way before God created Adam and Eve—animals, like dinosaurs
and others, roamed the earth. They want to believe both evolutionary scientists when they
say that the earth is billions of years old and the Bible when it indicates otherwise. That
desire gets them into theological trouble. If animals lived and died for millions of years
before Adam and Eve were created, then death came into the world long before mankind
even had a chance to sin. Death, therefore, could not be a result of Adam’s sin. However,
death before man cannot be because Romans says:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death
passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." – Romans 5:12
The Bible makes it very clear that Adam and Eve’s sin caused death; it was not already a
part of the world when they were created.
Millions of Years of Death
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave,
where is thy victory? The sting of
death is sin; and the strength of sin is
the law. But thanks be to God, which
giveth us the victory through our Lord
Jesus Christ."
I Corinthians 15:55-57
This is something I struggle with a little bit as far as the age of the earth and that sort of thing. I however came to a new conlcusion that is kind of my own theory based on other theories that are out there. I can't prove it, but it kinda makes sense to me...
Take the theory of gravity and the theory of time & space. Gravity is essentially the force that holds things together and keeps our universe in balance... Time and space regulates gravity and is the counter force to gravity. I'm not a scientists and I only have a limited knowledge of the subject but time and space is manipulated by gravity and the mass of an object. Time and space is like a mattress for example that is flat, but can be bent(compressed) by placing a bowling ball on it. The amount of compression is caused by the mass of the object which is basically what gravity is... My theory is that since the Universe is now thought of by scientists to have started by the Big Bang... and once there was no gravity and that only God existed in space and time... that when the Universe was created it changed or created time... and time as we know it is skewd because as the Universe expands., it changes time from when the Universe was created.. time passed much more quickly than it does now... which is maybe why things such as fossils and the earth seem older than they actually are. So as the universe spreads out the mass of the universe affects time and space less than it did during the creation of the universe.
Does this make any sense ?
I know its not the best illustration...
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Well written and I am in total agreement, though I AM an evolutionary biologist. :D
I stay out of most of these topics because I am annoyed, angered, etc by the absolute argument from many Christians. The idea that you can denounce me, my thoughts, my beliefs, in a single word and that you are "right" and I'm going to heck. You won't change me, and there is certainly nothing I can do to get you to think about my side either.
I am annoyed and angered by the idea that you can't be a Christian if you believe in evolution. I DO believe in evolution, I believe that evolution is the mechanism of creation. I have been lambasted on this very board for such a thought, by so called Christians, and I resent it. So don't even bother with your holier than thou comments.

I am a species level biologist and believe me, when you look at that detail, a one day creationism makes it look like God just got board and lazy. Don't take this personally. Like "oh gosh, I'm out of ideas... move an arm spine..." But a self sustaining, self perpetuating, constantly adaptable system is glorious when you contemplate it. It is difficult for me to even fathom that greatness. That creation spanned much more than 6 days - a time frame that our pathetic minds can comprehend - when in my mind it always was, and always will be a day of creation. This is what I believe evolution is.
This is how God has reached me...I believe God seeks people in many ways. However he reaches you, that is what is important, no?
This is not intended to start a debate. As I mentioned, I have not read the thread...I do not want to because I will be upset. If you don't agree with me, then so be it, I do not care, and will not change your mind (just as you will not change mine). But I believe, as in many things, the debate is "owned" by the extreme opposites, and there will be no progress and understanding until both concede and communicate. But I won't answer "prove this" questions (read above).

Well written and well though out as always Oph.
I've encountered this as well and it's sad. Scientists should never be so blind as to be scared of "God", and Christians should never have such weak faith that they fear science.
 

aztec reef

Active Member
lol, this is just a silly thread, You have to believe in Evolotion period..wether your Christian or athiest.... Every living thing on EARTH evolves,such as animals,plants,ect.. i don't get what the debate is about.
You guys evolved from your parents genes, didn't you?
Your genes and your parents genes evolved from previous genes inherited by previous humans species.
Every living thing starting from a cell will evolve depending on its energy source, environment.ect..sometimes evolution can be seen as a theory or fact.
"Fact"
A "fact" in science is an observation. (which can always be debunked)
"theory"
A "theory" in science is an explanation of the observations.(which also can be debunked)
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Oh, ok "macroevolution" is not proven though , even if "microevolution" is, and by this they seem to mean that whatever evolution is observed is microevolution. and the rest is macroevolution.lol
 

aztec reef

Active Member
micro= small
macro=BIg
Now, show me some proof that something BIG evolved to something BIG.(macroevolution)
I don't have to proove to you that Microevolution is a Fact, do I?
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
lol, this is just a silly thread, You have to believe in Evolotion period..wether your Christian or athiest.... Every living thing on EARTH evolves,such as animals,plants,ect.. i don't get what the debate is about.
You guys evolved from your parents genes, didn't you?
Your genes and your parents genes evolved from previous genes inherited by previous humans species.
Every living thing starting from a cell will evolve depending on its energy source, environment.ect..sometimes evolution can be seen as a theory or fact.
"Fact"
A "fact" in science is an observation. (which can always be debunked)
"theory"
A "theory" in science is an explanation of the observations.(which also can be debunked)
I understand what you are saying, but I think the thread means do you think birds came from dinosaurs or man from ape...etc...etc... or that they existed independently from one another.
 

moneyman

Member
I believe in Evolution and something called God. But, my God doesn't have a beard, hangs on the clouds, and probably isn't your God.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
...
You guys evolved from your parents genes, didn't you?
Your genes and your parents genes evolved from previous genes inherited by previous humans species.
Every living thing starting from a cell will evolve depending on its energy source, environment.ect..sometimes evolution can be seen as a theory or fact......
That is not Evolution by any stretch of the definition.
 

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Well written and I am in total agreement, though I AM an evolutionary biologist. :D
I stay out of most of these topics because I am annoyed, angered, etc by the absolute argument from many Christians. The idea that you can denounce me, my thoughts, my beliefs, in a single word and that you are "right" and I'm going to heck. You won't change me, and there is certainly nothing I can do to get you to think about my side either.
I am annoyed and angered by the idea that you can't be a Christian if you believe in evolution. I DO believe in evolution, I believe that evolution is the mechanism of creation. I have been lambasted on this very board for such a thought, by so called Christians, and I resent it. So don't even bother with your holier than thou comments.

That is why I intended to keep religion out of the discussion.
I too get annoyed by Christians who seem to think that you cannot believe in both God and evolution. These "literalists" do not understand the true meaning in the Bible. The Bible is open to interpretation, and I get annoyed when someone tries to prove or disprove beliefs by quoting from it.
Evolution can be discussed on a truely scientific level. I don't believe evolution is how we came to be, but if it were true, it wouldn't change my faith.
I believe in creation, but I don't believe the Genesis story was meant to be taken literally. There is so much more meaning behind it, that you need a full understanding of the Bible and language it was written in to understand what it's saying. However, I'm always up to discussion, and if the facts are strong enough to support evolution, I might change my mind. As you stated, evolution is a wondrous way to imagine God's plan for us through gradual changes over millions of years.
 

clown boy

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darknes
I believe in creation, but I don't believe the Genesis story was meant to be taken literally. There is so much more meaning behind it, that you need a full understanding of the Bible and language it was written in to understand what it's saying. However, I'm always up to discussion, and if the facts are strong enough to support evolution, I might change my mind. As you stated, evolution is a wondrous way to imagine God's plan for us through gradual changes over millions of years.
So what do you believe that God created during the six days of creation?
 

aztec reef

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
That is not Evolution by any stretch of the definition.
lol, journey, Evolution= Any process of formacion or growth. A product of development, not a sudden discovery or creation..
Evolution is the process by which modern organisms have descended from ancient ancestors.(your parents ,grandparents,greatgrandparents ect..that's were you evolved from) Evolution is responsible for both the remarkable similarities we see across all life and the amazing diversity of that life..
Fundamental to the process is "genetic" variation upon which selective forces can act in order for evolution to occur.
I believe in Evolution(cause its a fact of any creation), and in God but his name is not jehova

I Don't believe humans evolved from Apes or that dinosaurs came from birds, Although i do believe some dino species did grow wings like birds, but they did not evolved from birds..
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef

lol, journey, Evolution= Any process of formacion or growth. A product of development, not a sudden discovery or creation....
That is not what we are discussing here Aztec...
If you read the thread you'll see (and I've used the words several times) the origin of life from a Macro and Micro evolution is what is being discussed. The kind that applies to this definition of the word:
evolution- Biology
. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
Coming from our parents is "reproduction" and "growing". Not evolving (unless of course you believe your ultimate Great Grandmother was a single celled bit of rNA in a tidal pool, in which case you would be correct in using "evolve" in that case) . You're confusing the terms.
 

clown boy

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Not evolving (unless of course you believe your ultimate Great Grandmother was a single celled bit of rNA in a tidal pool, in which case you would be correct in using "evolve" in that case) .
 

ozmar

Member
Originally Posted by Clown Boy
It sounded like you said that you had turned your back on God, but you were a Christian.

Ah... Yeah, that wouldn't make much sense.
 

ozmar

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
That is not Evolution by any stretch of the definition.
Things change => evolution exists?

Sounds like a theory that would be difficult to disprove. If you define "evolution" as things changing, then you've got an iron-clad case. But I think most people see a distinction between "evolving" and "growing".
 

ozmar

Member
Originally Posted by Clown Boy
So what do you believe that God created during the six days of creation?
I know what he created at the end of six days... the weekend!
 

ophiura

Active Member
IMO, there is no scientific finding that could ever preclude the existence of God.
Science is based on logic, and religion built on faith, and these can be mutually exclusive. You can have both, in my opinion. You can always ask the question of why, even if you go back the Big Bang. Even if you go beyond that, you can always find a place for the hand of God. It does not mean we have to be black or white. Creationist or Evolutionist. It does, in my mind mean that these two points will never "win" over the other side. They are just based on totally different philosophical foundations, IMO.
 
Top