don't skip this sump thread

[turningtim]

I have some stacked designs somewhere I just have to find them. the one big worry i have is with a 180 you may over run the 20 gal sump and have bubble problems. You deffinatly want to split the flow between fuge and sump and don't use 2 pumps as Bang said. Also you shouldn't add more bio-load to the fuge with any type of fish (Master squidd).
Let me see what I can come up with!
psu, Been doing that nasty four letter word that begins with a "W"! Just finishing up some stuff and getting back in the game. I'll be around! glad to see the tank is doing well!
Tim

 

[stdreb27]

lets see the stacking designs

 

[turningtim]

Whats the magic word?

J/K
This is very rough! I don't have the dimensions for your tanks and I have not run the numbers for flow, back-siphon blah,blah,blah. But this should give you some idea. It's very close to what you already had........
What size is the OF and what are you planning to run though the sump? Everything must work together for a proper system. So all sizes must be know. Once you figuire what you have then you can go from there and make it the best you can......
HTH
Tim

 

[stdreb27]

sizes, that is up to consideration. In all of this, and after seeing the tank that my friend is going to give me, I really think I"m going to flip flop them and put the bigger one on the bottom. And just use a HOB overflow again, To give room for my skimmer that is pretty big the pump and all that. My tank is a 180, And now the top tank is a twenty gallon, the bottom is 45. the skimmer is a Lifereef vs3-30 skimmer is a PanWorld 150pxx, 1100 gph pump driving it. Other than that nothing is bought or built. What else do you need to know? And what calculations are you talking about. i like math.

 

[turningtim]

Well, we need the dims of the tanks. The actual footprint of the skimmer and pump. Return pump size. How much flow can the HOB OF handle so we can size the return pump. I assume that these will be over the top returns also? This so we can size the chambers in the sump.
Calcs will come in to get max baffle height and backwash area for power out situations.
I would (IMHO) say that a 20 gal fuge on a 180 gal tank is a bit light. I would keep the 45 at least and then maybe look for another sump tank (30L or better). Or if at all possible find a cheap 55 for the fuge and use the 45 for the sump.
The math is easy. Hopefully squid will ba around to check on it.....
Tim

 

[jrthomas40]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
Hey I'm toying with this idea for a sump using two tanks. a 45 gallon breeder and a 20 gallon tank. Sorry for the bad sketch I'm NOT an artist. and I used paint. What do you guys think?

that is a pretty cool setup but if it was me i would put the 20 on top and the 45 on bottom that way it could handle a power outage a little better

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by TurningTim
Well, we need the dims of the tanks. The actual footprint of the skimmer and pump. Return pump size. How much flow can the HOB OF handle so we can size the return pump. I assume that these will be over the top returns also? This so we can size the chambers in the sump.
Calcs will come in to get max baffle height and backwash area for power out situations.
I would (IMHO) say that a 20 gal fuge on a 180 gal tank is a bit light. I would keep the 45 at least and then maybe look for another sump tank (30L or better). Or if at all possible find a cheap 55 for the fuge and use the 45 for the sump.
The math is easy. Hopefully squid will ba around to check on it.....
Tim
ok well I'm at work but will get off at 7 so some time after that I"ll get you the dimentions.

 

[squidd]

Been out of town a couple days just rolled in tonight...
I got a lot of catching up to do...

 

[stdreb27]

So what do you think about some of the advice that has been given since you have been gone? Also I'm playing around with acouple more ideas. What do you think about just getting another 45 gallon tank. and having two. I think that would definately solve the possibility of flooding, by increasing my margin of error on waterlevel. And would you keep a canister as a closed loop system for waterflow? or just go with powerheads?

 

[squidd]

Quick review:
Agree with Banguy... Only need enough flow thru sump to keep skimmer happy (1 1/2X skimmer pump volume) any additional flow from your return pump can go thru your fuge...and then to return pump chamber and back to main tank...(split drain)
Additional flow for 180 tank should come from supplemental devices (closed loop , powerheads Seios Tunzee etc...) same as with secondary tank...
20 is good for sump...use 45 for "secondary display tank"...
a 45 for sump would be OK too as it could be set up with additional "safety" factor for powerout backwash...
For in tank flow see reccomendations below...

 

[squidd]

My thoughts on Turnover/Suggested turnover rates...
FOWLR : (Fish Only with Live Rock) 10X to 15X Depending on species, some like Box fish/Cow fish need slower water or "some" protected areas, others like Tangs and most Aggressive do better (filtration wise) with more flow due to high waste load.
Reef, Softies only: 10X to 15X Good rate for filtration, but not too fast as some "branching" softies won't open fully if blown around too much...
Reef, Softie and LPS: 15X to 20X with "protected" areas for branching softies (see above)
Reef, LPS: 20X to 25X Excellent flow for filtration and keeping deitrus suspended and movement of micro flora and Fauna food supply as well as "waste" and slime removal from coral bedding areas...
Reef LPS and SPS: 20X to 30X More flow is beneficial to SPS, but some "protected areas" are needed for "pillowy" inflating LPS as they too do not appreciate being blown around.
Reef, SPS: 25X and up, 30X is good, more is better: Most SPS do well in high flow situations, with a combination of random and linear flow patterns (flow control, wave and surge action, mix it up) Benefit to filtration, deitrus suspension, Oxygenation, waste and aelopathy removal and micro flora and fauna feeding...
This is a "General" recommendation for "Total" turnover which is a combination of sump return and supplemental circulation devices "IN" the tank (power heads/closed loop etc...) and with any species there will be exceptions to the rule (some softies are OK in high flow, some SPS don't like getting blasted)
Much of your success and failure with these projected flow rates will come from Rock layout and flow Output direction...Due to varying Rock scape, tank size/shape, and circulation layout (rock/tank wall deflection, caves, competing/canceling effect of flow movement) You may find you need higher or lower "Pump numbers" to get the desired "flow effect" in your tank, sometimes a rearranging of rock scape or redirecting power heads is all it takes, sometimes you'll need to "UP" the pumping capacity...

 

[squidd]

My thoughts of filtration...(and possible use for your canuister filter)...
Large (adaquate) quantity of Live Rock and SSB for Biological filtration (suface area for Bacteria)...High Flow , distributed through out the tank to keep deitrus suspended and removed from MT,promote gaseous exchange and maintain oxygen levels...a Large sump and LARGER Fuge with Macros for malnutrient removal through export (denitrification) and a Killer Skimmer to remove Mass quantities of DOCs (organics) prior to decomposition...
With a well balanced system, no other "filtration devices" (bioballs/biomedia) are necessary...Other than the ability to run Chemical Media (carbon or phosphate removers) from time to time, best done in a Fluidized bed (or converted canister) type system...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Squidd
Quick review:
Agree with Banguy... Only need enough flow thru sump to keep skimmer happy (1 1/2X skimmer pump volume) any additional flow from your return pump can go thru your fuge...and then to return pump chamber and back to main tank...(split drain)
Additional flow for 180 tank should come from supplemental devices (closed loop , powerheads Seios Tunzee etc...) same as with secondary tank...
20 is good for sump...use 45 for "secondary display tank"...
a 45 for sump would be OK too as it could be set up with additional "safety" factor for powerout backwash...
For in tank flow see reccomendations below...
I'm sure it is out there but how much water is there per inch lost in the aquarium. there has to be something that would say and inch times the surface area= so many gallons. The problem is that I think I would need more than the 8 or 9 gallons of over flow room that I think I'll have in the twenty gallons.
I just bought a skimmer a lifereef vs3-30. Is that a killer skimmer in your mind?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
ok well I'm at work but will get off at 7 so some time after that I"ll get you the dimentions.
still haven't gotten to it. I have three papers to write this weekend. 45 paged overall. And research and all that going to get the tank from storage hopefully tomorrow and get your some size figures. I really am interested in spacing and size of the baffles I have no idea how to space them or anything.

 

[turningtim]

No worries! Gals= L x W x D /231 (cubic inches per gallon). This is part of what needs to get done for backwash. With a 180 I think the 20 sump will be to small.......
Tim

 

[bang guy]

Tim, one change I would make to your sketch:
Water like to flow straight, especially when it's flowing downhill. The way you have the refugium elbow it's not going to get any flow at all. In fact, the way it is drawn it may even create a siphon because of water induction.
If possible I would have the flow go straight to the refugium with a valve to control how much gets to the refugium. Another option would be to move the valve in your picture to the sump side after the 'T'.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Squidd
My thoughts of filtration...(and possible use for your canuister filter)...
Large (adaquate) quantity of Live Rock and SSB for Biological filtration (suface area for Bacteria)...High Flow , distributed through out the tank to keep deitrus suspended and removed from MT,promote gaseous exchange and maintain oxygen levels...a Large sump and LARGER Fuge with Macros for malnutrient removal through export (denitrification) and a Killer Skimmer to remove Mass quantities of DOCs (organics) prior to decomposition...
With a well balanced system, no other "filtration devices" (bioballs/biomedia) are necessary...Other than the ability to run Chemical Media (carbon or phosphate removers) from time to time, best done in a Fluidized bed (or converted canister) type system...
Not meaning to get sidetracked here, but exactly why a SSB instead of DSB? I thought the DSB was generally the better option? For nitrate export????? :notsure: Hi Tim!

 

[squidd]

Depth of "sand" has nothing to do with nitrate reduction...

Having a deep enough sand bed with adaquate surface area and a "complete" and balanced stock of micro flora and fauna (with out any of the detrimental creatures) in order to maintain a "Living" sand bed can help in completing the nitrogen cycle...
But it's way more work that I want to do and way more complex than dumping a cup of live sand on 6" of southdown...

 

[offshore80]

Here is your idea in action... I've been using this for 4 years. It works pretty good but the flow is a little to fast. The main tank is on the other side of the wall. It all drains back into the main sump.
I can valve off the 40 breeder to use as a QT tank for new fish. That works great.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by TurningTim
Well, we need the dims of the tanks. The actual footprint of the skimmer and pump. Return pump size. How much flow can the HOB OF handle so we can size the return pump. I assume that these will be over the top returns also? This so we can size the chambers in the sump.
Calcs will come in to get max baffle height and backwash area for power out situations.
I would (IMHO) say that a 20 gal fuge on a 180 gal tank is a bit light. I would keep the 45 at least and then maybe look for another sump tank (30L or better). Or if at all possible find a cheap 55 for the fuge and use the 45 for the sump.
The math is easy. Hopefully squid will ba around to check on it.....
Tim
The dimentions of the 45 gallon. which I've decided I'm giong to use two of them instead of the 20 gallon. the tank is is 16 inches tall 35 1/2 inches wide and 17 1/2 inches from front to back.
So how am I suppost to space the baffles? And is there anything else you need to know?