DSB revolt
- Thread starter jlem
- Start date
adrian
Active Member
Yeah, i would like to see the info posted here where everyone can see it, we wont do much good arguing back and forth through email, and no one will really benefit 
This sounds like the old tank sydrome theory in another form, after so many years corals stop growing, algae takes over, yada, yada, yada. I think a poorly maintained tank is doomed to crash in a few years whether or not a DSB is in use. Whats that, now we have to change out our live rock, thats crazy, what bacteria dont die off, they just keep mutiplying until they take out the tank? Dont get me wrong, Im not stuck in my ways and against new ideas, but this issue has been going around for ever, and it seems to be coming from one source. Who is the author(s) of these articles? Its exactly that, everyone does something different and everyone has an opinion, in this case its like the whole iodine issue, there wont be any winners until some can come up with some concrete facts and not just stipulations Good Thread!
This sounds like the old tank sydrome theory in another form, after so many years corals stop growing, algae takes over, yada, yada, yada. I think a poorly maintained tank is doomed to crash in a few years whether or not a DSB is in use. Whats that, now we have to change out our live rock, thats crazy, what bacteria dont die off, they just keep mutiplying until they take out the tank? Dont get me wrong, Im not stuck in my ways and against new ideas, but this issue has been going around for ever, and it seems to be coming from one source. Who is the author(s) of these articles? Its exactly that, everyone does something different and everyone has an opinion, in this case its like the whole iodine issue, there wont be any winners until some can come up with some concrete facts and not just stipulations Good Thread!
jlem
Active Member
Kipass makes a good point in that a DSB needs to be maintained to be succesfull. I believe that C/C does not become a Nitrate factory if properly maintained and vacumed. Even UGF work great if maintained with the proper enthusiasm. A refugium seems to be the best nitrate reducer in my opinion but you can not just let it go and go without some maintenance. It seems like for the longest time DSB's where the portrayed as the ( SET IT AND FORGET IT ) biological filter, and I don't think there is such a filter out there. The more people realize that saltwater tanks are quite abit of work no matter how you slice it, the more people will take a second look at the newest trend in filtration and realize that some are more hype than a necessity
jlem
Active Member
I don't have a DSB so I could not tell you how to maintain them. My point was that all filtration methods take some maintenance to keep them from going south. I see no problem with someone changing out a DSB every couple years if that is what they are willing to do to maintain that type of filtration. I personally would not, but there are alot of tanks out there with DSB's that put my tank to shame.
Now I have no proof but I do believe that a very lightly stocked tank with minimal bioload could probably have a very healthy DSB for many years, but who wants a very lightly stocked tank.
Now I have no proof but I do believe that a very lightly stocked tank with minimal bioload could probably have a very healthy DSB for many years, but who wants a very lightly stocked tank.
sweetjesus
Member
No DSB for me,
Maintainence issues. A lot of times they are successful for the short term. One main reason is the fauna that hitch hikes on the rock. This fauna does not have a sustainable population and falls prey to extinction over a relatively few years. None of the kits detrivore kits etc etc from any of the retailers can replace the abundance, amount, quality, or diversity of what came in on the initial live rock. Perhaps if your going to do a DSB, it would be beneficial to order some of the aquacultured stuff from the florida suppliers and replace the sand bed much like you do a water change!
Maintainence issues. A lot of times they are successful for the short term. One main reason is the fauna that hitch hikes on the rock. This fauna does not have a sustainable population and falls prey to extinction over a relatively few years. None of the kits detrivore kits etc etc from any of the retailers can replace the abundance, amount, quality, or diversity of what came in on the initial live rock. Perhaps if your going to do a DSB, it would be beneficial to order some of the aquacultured stuff from the florida suppliers and replace the sand bed much like you do a water change!
jlem
Active Member
Reefman. You seem to have me confused with a DSB expert and enthusiest. I am not one by any means. I re read all of my post and you seem to be taking me all wrong.
When you say that it is recomended, it sounds like you and one or two other people recomend it, which is far cry from a generally accepted recomendation. I am not saying you are wrong by any means. I am just saying that using the exeption to the general rule does not push alot of weight. It does make people think a little and that is great
When you say that it is recomended, it sounds like you and one or two other people recomend it, which is far cry from a generally accepted recomendation. I am not saying you are wrong by any means. I am just saying that using the exeption to the general rule does not push alot of weight. It does make people think a little and that is great
fshhub
Active Member
several points, metals which do not get used up, do not belong in MY tank
i know of several which are well beyond 5 yrs
Dr Ron, not only is not god, he seems to have been worng before
bill clinton, well I thought the same thing right off the bat
LR, replaced after 4 yrs? Yeah right. NOt here! In fact, one of my favorite LFS has been selling it for 25 yrs and can provide many names of satisfied customers who never replaced theirs.
the micro fauna does not bring the detritus and decaying matter to the sand, they eat it form the sand, it gets there naturally(through gravitational pull)
MN, how long did you have yoru dsb, befroe it crashed? and why did it crash? I would be interested in more specificds, vs reading mORE propiganda, including that published by Dr Ron. He has written several books, and has changed his opinion on many things, And has also published severlal things without much or any research. He is only human, whihc means he can be wrong and can also change his mind, this means of course that form time to time he can be wrong. IN FACT, I am FAIRLY sure if given time, he will publish otherwise, AGAIN.
i know of several which are well beyond 5 yrs
Dr Ron, not only is not god, he seems to have been worng before
bill clinton, well I thought the same thing right off the bat
LR, replaced after 4 yrs? Yeah right. NOt here! In fact, one of my favorite LFS has been selling it for 25 yrs and can provide many names of satisfied customers who never replaced theirs.
the micro fauna does not bring the detritus and decaying matter to the sand, they eat it form the sand, it gets there naturally(through gravitational pull)
MN, how long did you have yoru dsb, befroe it crashed? and why did it crash? I would be interested in more specificds, vs reading mORE propiganda, including that published by Dr Ron. He has written several books, and has changed his opinion on many things, And has also published severlal things without much or any research. He is only human, whihc means he can be wrong and can also change his mind, this means of course that form time to time he can be wrong. IN FACT, I am FAIRLY sure if given time, he will publish otherwise, AGAIN.
jlem
Active Member
Fshhub, or anybody else
I am going to put in a refugium under my 125 gallon. It should hold about 35 gallons of water and is 3ft long. How much water flow would you recomend going through the refugium, and would a simple PC from homedepot be enough or do I need to go with expensive aquarium lights.
I am going to put in a refugium under my 125 gallon. It should hold about 35 gallons of water and is 3ft long. How much water flow would you recomend going through the refugium, and would a simple PC from homedepot be enough or do I need to go with expensive aquarium lights.
adrian
Active Member
Ok so we have concluded that all forms of filtration need maintained, right. DSBs need to be equiped with plenty of infauna to keep the bed healthy,this would include everything from bacteria to sand sifting cucumbers, these critters need fed to keep them alive and reproducing, and these critters may need replaced over time, ok nothing new there, things die, even if we take very good care of them, makes sense one would have to bulk up the sand bed crew after a while, just like you have to do with a clean up crew including snails and crabs, they die and need replaced eventually, you wait long enough you will have to replace some of your fish and corals too Same goes for a refugium, things are going to die off, and if they go unreplaced, problems could occur.
okay what do i need to buy and how much to maintain my dsb......and how often do i need to buy em
Well you would start with a properly set up DSB, which would be 4"+ of aragonite sands in various grain sizes, add a variety of fauna to the bed, to start the "live" part, mainly bacteria, but also various worms, "pods", tiny starfish, ect. Most of this will come from LR and can be maintained as long as there are plenty of places to exist and reproduce, ie sand/LR, and plenty of food, phytoplankton. Next add some inverts to "work" the sand, ex. nassarious snails, burrowing starfish, sandsifting cukes, hermit crabs, ect. Of course these critters must also be cared for or they will no doubt die off in time, and if they go unreplaced, guess what your sand bed will become stagnant, and your tank might crash.
I dont think it was ever suggested that you not replensish critters in a DSB, but some may have neglected it. Basically, if I havent mis read something, some of the people here think that a reeftank has a certain life expectancy, well no kidding, I hate to say it, but eventually, if your in the hobby long enough, your tank is going to crash, and guess what you may never know why or how to prevent it Until someone figures it all out, and prooves exactly what is need to keep a reef inevitably, someone will come up with a reason why something dosnt work, and tell everyone what they should be doing, until the next guy comes along and states why that dosnt work, and why you should be doing things his way. Makes for healthy conversations like this, so keep it coming Ill be the first one to rip my DSB out if someone can proove that something else works better and my DSBs are eventually going to crash my tanks. Until then I will stick with my DSB and all the other forms of filtration on my tanks that may or may not work, ex. skimmers, activated carbon, water changes, ect.
Heres my next question, even though most of my others have gone unanswered, what do you replace a DSB with? And does it not have the potential to crash over time? If someone can paste the main points of these articles that have been written it would be helpfull
Same goes for a refugium, things are going to die off, and if they go unreplaced, problems could occur. okay what do i need to buy and how much to maintain my dsb......and how often do i need to buy em
Well you would start with a properly set up DSB, which would be 4"+ of aragonite sands in various grain sizes, add a variety of fauna to the bed, to start the "live" part, mainly bacteria, but also various worms, "pods", tiny starfish, ect. Most of this will come from LR and can be maintained as long as there are plenty of places to exist and reproduce, ie sand/LR, and plenty of food, phytoplankton. Next add some inverts to "work" the sand, ex. nassarious snails, burrowing starfish, sandsifting cukes, hermit crabs, ect. Of course these critters must also be cared for or they will no doubt die off in time, and if they go unreplaced, guess what your sand bed will become stagnant, and your tank might crash.
I dont think it was ever suggested that you not replensish critters in a DSB, but some may have neglected it. Basically, if I havent mis read something, some of the people here think that a reeftank has a certain life expectancy, well no kidding, I hate to say it, but eventually, if your in the hobby long enough, your tank is going to crash, and guess what you may never know why or how to prevent it
Until someone figures it all out, and prooves exactly what is need to keep a reef inevitably, someone will come up with a reason why something dosnt work, and tell everyone what they should be doing, until the next guy comes along and states why that dosnt work, and why you should be doing things his way. Makes for healthy conversations like this, so keep it coming Ill be the first one to rip my DSB out if someone can proove that something else works better and my DSBs are eventually going to crash my tanks. Until then I will stick with my DSB and all the other forms of filtration on my tanks that may or may not work, ex. skimmers, activated carbon, water changes, ect. Heres my next question, even though most of my others have gone unanswered, what do you replace a DSB with? And does it not have the potential to crash over time? If someone can paste the main points of these articles that have been written it would be helpfull
adrian
Active Member
lr and ls serve the same purpose, ls just addes to the volume doing it. so it occurs in the lr as well as in waterchanges
Well I cant argue with that...
But it didnt answer my question, what will you replace it with, or are you to rely only on LR? Sounds to me like LR would have the same potential to crash your tank, why not take that out too?
Well I cant argue with that...
But it didnt answer my question, what will you replace it with, or are you to rely only on LR? Sounds to me like LR would have the same potential to crash your tank, why not take that out too?
jlem
Active Member
Maybe it is worth redoing a DSB every so many years if it means that you don't have to do as many water changes and clean as many filters for those years. All personall preference I guess. I don't think that a sucessful DSB necesarily means that it has to last a century or more. If it does it's job for so many years and that it cool with somebody then I guess it would be a worthwhile move. I don't plan on putting one in. I don't think that anyone has said that a DSB will last forever, but I don't think think that expecting a good few years is not asking to much. It seems that the swing is going from the DSB being the ideal setup to being just another biological filter option
adrian
Active Member
The best thing to do is utilize several forms of filtration, not to rely on just one. Water changes are the most effective form of filtration whether you have a DSB or not, you cant get any better than removing a percentage of the tanks water and all the funkiness in that volume of water and replacing it with new water.
broncofish
Active Member
Originally posted by mnreefman
ask dr ron....his crashed and i think the man is a brilliant man concerning sand beds and its fauna, bang guy knows his stuff too, but more and more dsbs are failing
Could not read through this whole thread but I maybe stepping on somebodys toes here...but is that wha shimek is blaiming it on now. I thought he was saying IO was the cause for his heavy metal build up. I also saw something about DSB and Toonens name being thrown around. I believe it was the tank at UC davis, not his personal one, I'll look in the morning see if I still have an article.
adrian
Active Member
Ok so now were onto detritus, which occurs in ever nook and cranny in a reef tank, with or without a DSB. So your saying that all this detritus is collecting at the bottom of a DSB and over time its the detritus that causes the tank to crash?
Its amazing how one man can have so much influence on this hobby, and yet his opinions change every week It was the Docs statements that convinced me to install my first DSB, not to mention start feeding the tanks a lot more, now hes saying thats all bogus, and it may actually kill my tank. "We are getting aggrevated, arent we"
Its amazing how one man can have so much influence on this hobby, and yet his opinions change every week
It was the Docs statements that convinced me to install my first DSB, not to mention start feeding the tanks a lot more, now hes saying thats all bogus, and it may actually kill my tank. "We are getting aggrevated, arent we" 
sammystingray
Active Member
Dr Rons answers change with time....he first started saying ANY tank will crash long term, but is it now DSBs? I have a tank at this very moment olkder than any tank Dr Ron has, and his research is very very very underfunded and lacking. Inverts? yes. IDs, yeah he knows them all......don't start taking what he says as the gospil though. I have been follwing him for years....the same anemone he IDed for me as "definately not a majano", he IDed for another as one. Ask him about blue leg hermits....when he says they suck, then ask why he has a "pamphlet" in stores right now praising them as a needed item? I have seen several people joke about Ron throwing away his tank every few years on his own board......bottom line is that he does not do it for a living right now.....he has no funding for "real" research, and basically doesn't research very intensly.....no offense to the man, but this is my belief. The guys smart.....knows more than me.....no doubt, but he throws out guesses too fast with little actual research.......I have several pieces of liverock over around 11 years old, and the newest liverock I own is over five years really.....I have a tank that has not quit running constantly in about ten years......soooooooo many people have tanks older than Ron says they should last. I do agree 100% on the fact people just buy four inches of sand, and think some bristleworms will run the DSB......won't work.......just my thoughts.....really, there isn't a whole lot of DSB research anywhere......the few people really interested don't have the money to waste on large self funded studies. Even Toonen, my personal hero, had to use tanks with 0 bioload from live fish, and VERY small tanks......the stuff isn't cheap to study, and the discovery channel doesn't seem to care about DSBs. I think it's all guesses right now on the subject.
I think it's all guesses right now on the subject.
sammystingray
Active Member
BTW "anaerobic conditions" basically just means there is too little oxygen for aerobic bacteria to function.....this means the oxygen level has to drop to a certain level......anything that messes with the sand too much will bring too much oxygen into the lower layers and kill off the anaerobic conditions. Grain size is important because the smaller.....the less water can move through and carry fresh oxygen....smaller grains mean that low enough oxygen for anaerobic bacteria occurs at a shallower depth. Critters in the sand, and there should be thousands and thousands of worms and critters, eat the dtritus that falls, and basically poop iut out into the bed.......this moves things around and their movements get their waste and very slight amounts of water moving down into lower areas.....this is how the nitrate rich water even gets down there.......animals. If the water moves slow enough, it will be used up of oxygen by the time it gets down to low......too fast as with a wrasse or large digger....too much oxygen, and the anaerobic bacteria can't even survivve.....let alone reduce nitrates.