DSB revolt

[sammystingray]

OK, that goesman guy writes....."research has shown that anaerobic areas generate an ample supply of ammonium"
Now I'm not sure, but can ammonium even exist in our pH levels? Isn't ammonium a nontoxic form of ammonia? I believe if you have ammonia in your tank, and then drop the pH to a certain level....it will become ammonium???? I believe I remember this as a way to stop ammonia poisoning.....either way, it's nontoxic, and I'm not sure I believe this happens the way this guy proclaims. Hold on, got to see one more thing.... OK this goeman guy also writes....."however in anoxic areas, nitrate is completely broken down/oxidized"......Isn't the definition of "anoxic" the absolute absence of oxygen?? How is anything oxidized?? Doesn't there have to be an oxygen atom, perhaps in an unstable molecule with the odd oxygen atom waiting to leave the molecule.... . Anoxic is the absence of oxygen.

 

[tangman99]

And that "Your Honor" is why I killed the whole family . . . .

 

[broncofish]

Sammy your right about the ammonium thing, I think unless I think you could have ammonium nitrates, which are simple trates
...little trivia for everybody
The first DSB was used in 1908-1909 who was attempting to keep corals, he did, and they spawned, and had productiv offspring. No skimmer, no carbon, just a glass box, sand, rock, sunlight and a DSB, and this guy was more successful than 99.99% of us today.....very strange.(I got this info from the DR. Ron forum a few months back)

 

[broncofish]

Originally posted by sammystingray
Anoxic is the absence of oxygen.
Actually anoxic is a minor amount of oxygen 0.5-2.0 mg/l

 

[sammystingray]

Depends on who you ask I suppose.......
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0323100.html
http://www.jbpub.com/oceanlink/inter...fm?term=Anoxic
http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirecto...s/A/anoxic.htm

 

[broomer5]

Well,
I just read this entire thread.
I'm exhausted LOL
I've never thought my little 75 gallon glass box of sand, saltwater and living creatures duplicates anything close to what occurs in the ocean.
The chemistry, biology and biochemistry is similar - but not the same. So I don't even try to make that comparison in my mind.
I also hesitate to compare my tank to someone elses.
They may be similar - but never the same. Too may variables with physical differences and too many variable with the way we each go about setting them up and maintaining them.
I hope I understand everyone's viewpoint here.
I think I do at least.
My tank's running better now with a living deep sandbed, algae refugium and intense lighting......... than it did without these.
I don't expect it to last forever, and I enjoy setting up new tanks so much that I can't wait for the next upgrade.
I'll continue to try new methods as I learn about them.
If they work as well for me as my current set up does ... I'll be very pleased.
If not ..... then I'll try something else.
It's a hobby to explore new things as people find new methods.
I'll keep an open mind ..... but not so wide open that my brain falls out.
It's a hobby, and this board should be a fun place to enjoy discussing things, not picking on each other for our opinions.
Interesting thread. Let's keep it civil and cut out the jabs at each other ..... please.

 

[fshhub]

Originally posted by mnreefman
if you want proof that a dsb will fail over time e mail me mnreefman@yahoo.com
Plase disclose this proof, everyone has asked for it, and you aare now stating that it is your opinion, not proven fact, which we are basing your dislikes upon.
as for the metals, in sand, what metals do you find in pure aragonite? The only metals, I can think of are the ones which may be int he salt mix, or meds or food some feed. Then, maybe it is possible, but I am doubting it for the most part.
as for the detritus, YES it is partly poop, adn YES the critters in the dsb do eat it.
The ocean, well, yes it does move some sand around, daily, with the current, but it does not REPLACE the anoxic zones(just the top few inches, if that much), the bottom 35 billion inches still remain in tact.<exaggeration, but you get the point>

 

[bang guy]

Good thread. It's been an interesting read.
I have a couple comments in addition to my Goemans rant.
1 - Someone mentioned "what about Phosphate". This is a great question. Phosphate is required for any living creature that builds mass using Protein. In that regard Phosphate is a good thing. Unfortunately Phosphate is added with every bit of food we feed our tanks and it builds up. Algae, or the dreaded Cyanobacter, takes advantage of this excess nutrition and can quickly overtake corals and slower growing organisms.
I use Macro algae and Xenia to remove this excess nutrition and it has worked very well for me. The algae and Xenia uses the Phosphate to build mass, I remove the mass and sell it or toss it and vast quantities of Phosphate are removed.
2 - The extinction of sand bed infauna. This is real but perhaps it has been misunderstood. The problem isn't that all of the critters die off, it's that the diversity trails off after a couple of years. Diversity is very important in my opinion to ensure that every ecological niche in the sand bed is filled with some type of organism. Since out tanks are very finite eventually the populations of the more successful animals climb at the expence of some of the more specialized infauna.
My suggestion is to buy some high quality live sand about once a year to add some of that diversity back into the system. This is what I have been doing and it has been working (time will tell, eh?)
3 - Heavy metal buildup. I can't begin to understand all of the chemical reactions taking place in a sand bed. I do know that many of the Macro algaes uptake heavy metals. I'm really hoping that they are removing these metals at least as fast as they are being introduced to my tank.
4 - Live rock. Only one person in this entire thread attempted to bring up the similarities between Live Rock and a DSB. They were brushed off as if they didn't know what they were talking about. Well, I agree with them. There is very little difference between a live rock and a section of sand bed. They both have a 1/2-1" area where most infauna reside slowing pushing tiny amounts of water around, they both have a nitrification area where bacteria convert Ammonia and Nitrite to Nitrate, they both have an anoxic area where bacteria can convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas, and they both have small pockets of anaerobic areas where sulfur compounds can be broken down.
I really believe that if DSB's will eventually crash then so will live rock. They are so similar in function that I don't see how you can discuss one without the other.
Let's keep this thread going, there's a lot of information in one spot here....
Guy

 

[broncofish]

I'm putting a ton of xenia in my refugium on my 90, I'm wondering if they would be enough so I could have less macro?
Bang Guy...would live rock crash if it was constantly breeding bugs, infauna etc...or could you assume that bugs introduced with yearly addition of live sand would make there way to the rock?

 

[bang guy]

Bronco - I don't know. I would think that trading corals, buying new corals, etc would bring in enough new animals to keep the rocks going. If not, I would think that adding a new rock once in a while should do the trick.

 

[beth]

Bottom line, no system that we can conceive of is going to reproduce nature's perfection. This hobby is very dynamic and that is one of the things that I love about it. No doubt most hobbyists feel the same. How boring would it be if we all were still using UGFs or if "reef systems" were still a mystery that only a few elite could master. A lot of people who are anti-dsb don't realize that the dsb system in and of itself is just as fascinating to master and maintain as is cultivating sps's. [Well, maybe not that facinating, but close!] If you really don't like it or fail to appreciate it as being as interesting and as fun as putting together [and maintaining] a refugium, cultivating frags, etc., then the "dsb hype" is just not appreciated.
I'm sure 10 yrs from now there will be new and "superior" ways of putting a tank together that may make dsb as obsolete as a ugf. But, for now, it is a viable means of establishing a reef tank, and also, IMO, the easyest way to maintain a reef tank. It needs attention and appreciation, however, to thrive. It is not just 6” of sand; rather, it is teaming with life and is a vital part of the “natural filtration” that we who use it rely on.
Also, I don’t know if I have a weird DSB , but there are organisms throughout my dsb---not just on the top couple of inches. I looked under my tank last nite and saw many bristleworms at the very bottom and I’m sure there were many more orgs that I didn’t see.

 

[jlem]

Well thanks alot BETH. I am going for the longest thread and you post the most logical post and totally kill my chance at stardom

 

[beth]

This is a good discussion. Anything that gets us thinking and progressing is good. Strong opinions on both sides exist and really no one can say with absolute certainly that any means of setting up a tank is bound for failure or destined to outlive us. We are dealing with life here, and the organisms themselves and how well we take care of them and their environment has more to do with success or failure than anything else. Now that is one absolute there, and probably the only absolute that there is.

Now, does anyone want to see a pic of the bottom of DSB? LOL

 

[wrassecal]

I do. I can't see the bottom of my tank.

 

[justinx]

Originally posted by Beth
Now, does anyone want to see a pic of the bottom of DSB? LOL
Not sure if you are serious or not, but I would like a pic.

 

[beth]

OK, here it is. I'm amazed how clean it is. No dirty-looking mess at all. Certainly not like you get on the sandbed that is up against the sides of the aquarium that is typical of a dsb. If I didn't tell you that this was the bottom of my dsb, you'd think it was just sand out of bag.
I was trying to capture some tiny bristles that I saw in there, but couldn't get them. I have seen bristles down there that are 1+" and I can also see the "tracks" they leave.
Enjoy LOL

 

[justinx]

thanks for the pic beth, but its not as interesting as I thought it would be. Oh well. Thanks though!

 

[fishkid1000]

Why would it matter if u had waste in your DSB that couldnt be removed. I would think that some macro algae in the main tank would take care of that. Also if u follow the method that i use and do a very very small water change in your tank there would not be much waste that would end up at the bottom of the tank. O ya and bio loads. I have one percula clown in my 55 gallon. I have no problems what so ever with my dsb. I have a seven gallon nano with one neon goby and a 1'' sand bed. My nitrates are way lower in my fifty. IMO dont be so sure that a dsb will crash unless you know from experience.

 

[lesleybird]

Hi,
I would think that one would either need to replace the entire depth of a deep sand bed every year or so.....maybe one section at time, or else the organic matter that is not broken down into a gas would clog up the system and cause it to eventially get pretty nasty and crash. I cannot see that 100 percent of years of crap can be removed completely by they aerobic and aneorobic bacteria without some accumulation of residual that clogs the bed keeping it from working properly.
I think the theory and principals of the deep sand bed are good and valid for nitrate reduction, but I think for practical reasons it would be better to only place a deep sand bed in a separate refugium in which the water is filtered of debris before it goes in so that all that organic matter does not clog the system to crash the bed. In a refugium it would also be easier to remove it every now and then to replace it when it was worn out or over filled with crud. In my opinion, the main tank should have a moderate sand bed about two inches.....maybe sloping to three inches in places.
I am also a firm believer in vacuuming the sand bed every time there is a water change to remove the extra crud in the sand. Leaving it there to decompose and rot down into the deep layers of the sand just doesn't seem right in a closed system. Maybe the people who have successful deep sand beds for years only have corals, and not fish that eat messy foods and poop a lot! Just my opinions...Take em or leave um. Lesley

 

[sammystingray]

It's just my opinion, but I believe 90%, atleast, of DSBs do NOT have enough life in them. A DSB does not work at all without tons of life in it at all levels, and since they need to eat.....detritus and such must fall to the bed in some amount to support certain life......the DSB needs to eat. The most I ever see in folks DSBs are some bristleworms and some spionidae worms or something.....very very few have enough life in my opinion. DSBs are said to be easy quite often.....I don't believe they are, and I actually quit using one in my reef when I switched tanks....... I still have one that is very old in my eels tank....I also believe a lot of folks trying them also have water chemistry issues, fish that eat the life that is needed, algae growth that messes with the function.........just putting four inches of sand in the tank doesn't work.....there are a lot of other factors. I personally believe macro algae will eat through nitrates much much faster and easier, and I don't have to look at four inches of sand running up the front glass.....but I still see no proof that a DSB will crash a tank....that is the original topic, and a very interesting one. I don't believe liverock will seed a DSB properly, and I don't think a handful of livesand on top of 500 pounds of southdown will work either......it is well known, atleast in my circle, that any livesand bed should be replenished every now and then........deep or not. Do you guys think it is actually kind of hard to debate anything because we all have such different tanks? Seriously, each tank works differently..........that's a good thing though. I do recommend anyone hitting a search engine and typing "Toonen" and "sandbed" in the search.