DSB revolt

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
most people believe that the DSB will process everything to a gasious state and they will not understand the concept of end product diterus. They believe that they have a one shot do it all filtration method, that takes the crap and turns it into benefical gas. That is they way it has been sold for years.
If thatis what you aare basing your sole argument on ytou are hurting.
Sandbeds are not he be all end all - they are a prt of an eco system. Just as CC or a bare bottom are parts of hte eco system. CC is hard as heck to maintain and looks horrible after awhile and a barebottom is not adding or taking away anything from your ecosystem.
So - if you choose to run with just an inch of sand I would say that is pretty close to a bare bottom - it is nothing more than bare bottom with window dressing.
If anyone thinks that a DSB is the be all end all and with that and LR they need no other type of filtration then they are due to expereince issues and eventually crashes.
This hobby is one great balancing act.
Hell I am expecting any day now that Dr. Ron will post about how his skimmer caused his tank to crash or something else .... there are very few "experts" in this field.
Interesting debate

 

[harrysreef]

Very good thread. I have been in the hobby for 15+ years. I am currently running 4 reef tanks. They all utilize a different main system. The last was set up as dsb. All are in decent shape and all have suffered a set back in thier life, but none have crashed, this includes my first from over 15 years ago. Guess what it is ugf. I just never cahnged it because it always was and is running fine. My second is bare bottom because everyone said ugf were bad and mine would crash. it didn't but I got two reefs Then when I heard about the sand plemun I though wow and set up a third tank using this. Wife was pissed but another story. Finally I found this board and decided to try this dsb because of what I was reading. I converted a 125 fo to a dsb so far I happy with it.
Bottom line ... they all take time and maintenance some more than others. Regardless of what i learn I'm not changing any tank over to a different system just because someone said. If a new way comes along heck I may get another tank out of it. I've learned all tanks are different and we run them different. what works for me won't necessarily work for you. But this debate is great and I have no favorite system.
If and when one of my tank crashes it will be changed over to which ever type I feel is working best for me at that time.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
go up to go to the bathroom and i saw that so before i go back to bed....i am not basing my argument on that, but DSB's have become what the ugf was 30yrs ago......There are a ploy for people to go out and spend an extra 200 bucks that isnt needed.... heres an example lets say the avg dsb costs 150 bucks (and i think i am on the way low cost...).... -- has over 30000 members....lets ssay 2/3 use dsb thats 3 million dollars...now if they change it out ever four year years like they are suposed to, and lewts say they keep spending money on the deterivore kits....$$$$$ you see my point... ill get more scientific later......
BACK TO BED!
Uhm you should've let the fumes clear a little. I've not seen anywhere that it is recommended you change out your DSB every four years except here - by you. So please find some facts to back it up. Sure your opinion is - but provide me some facts HERE - not some mumbo jumbo about someone on another board said that he heard that DSBs were bad. Research and facts.
the sand manufacturers are not pushing their products -southdown states right on the bag - Not for use in an Aquarium .....
of course the bagged sand that is for $30 a bag for 20 pounds @ the LFS - that is a bit excessive - but if you do some research then you would find some alternatives.
If you don't run a DSB then what are youd doing to help counter that lose of filtration?
this hobby is all about different approaches and different styles - but you are stating items on here as fact that are not facts or are not proven by anything other than your opinion. While you are entitled to your opinion I feel it is irresponsible of you to be presenting these items as facts!
So please - pull some facts together - and site your sources. If it is all anecdotal sources that's fine - give me some numbers. Example: I polled 100 people and the response is that 75% said that after four years their DSB crashed.

 

[blueabyss]

i have a friend that had a DSB his tank had crashed 2 times in a year and a half. He talks about Dr. Ron all the time. I still belive that anyone can right a book. i went with a bare bottom and that is doing fine.

 

[krunk]

how big is dr.ron's tank?

 

[the claw]

Not to bury my head in the sand or anything, but I love my DSB and have great hopes for it. I hope it doesn't crash. MNREEFMAN, I would be happy to have you e-mail me those links to read up on it. (I contacted you), but I don't plan to purge anytime soon. I would have to agree with KPASS.
and Jenni... I would recommend to you that everything on this board is based on opinion, and that we all have lots of experience some good, and some bad. Give it a whirl and come up with your own bias.
Isn't controversy fun. Think back a few years when the first aquaritst were putting live rock into their aquariums instead of their old coral skeletons.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by Harrysreef
Very good thread. I have been in the hobby for 15+ years.
But this debate is great and I have no favorite system.
If and when one of my tank crashes it will be changed over to which ever type I feel is working best for me at that time.
Guy stands and claps.
Nice post Harry. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[the claw]

Dudes, this is just a healthy debate. Why is everyone so upset? I'm with Harry. GREAT THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whose Dr. Ron, is he like Dr. Phil or what??????????????

 

[the claw]

How did I insult you?

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
you dont insult people in a debate
How were you insulted?
I still want proof of your statement: "no matter what if you have a dsb eventully it will crash"
If you come on here and post this statement I want facts posted here backing it up.
FWIW - Tanks that crash mysteriously probably have several reasons why they crash.

 

[broncofish]

Perhaps people would takew your statements a little better mnreefman if you said...IMO they won't work, or are only short term. Because IMO they do work longterm, and are very possible.
I have had my DSB in my 29g for well I set it up in august of 1999, so I guess that would be almost four years, my numbers are dead zero's across the board even though I probably over feed, I add no additional "kits" . I have a ton of worms, pods, starfish, and all kinds of things I can't see. I watch as my sand bed level from top to bottom turn greenish,red, brown, and black. Constantly evolving. I do plan on adding some more LS just to give it a little kick, and refreshing, but I have yet to talk to any local reefers who have had DSB crash on them. I have a very strong feeling that peoples who tank crash and then they point a finger at a DSB are also having other issues. As for Dr. Rons system it looks to me like he grabbing kicking and screaming for anything to blame it's failure on, it's made me lose a certain amount of respect for his recent work.
I am very very very open to the fact that a DSB may be a ticking time bomb. What are the scientific reasons for it though?

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
how was i insulted.......hmmm ive never seen anyone called narrow minded before on a bb...my belifs are my belifs yours are yours... like i said i will continue this in private....... but we can not expect a dsb to function properly in a closed system....is a great idea, and a great short term solution, but eventually it will not work...
and your proof is ......?
Personally I think all pieces to the puzzle need to fit together.
OBTW - I was just reading about a tank @ Penn State that has been running a DSB. He tore down the tank in 2001: "The tank had become too overgrown and showing signs of age and laziness related effects. " (link: http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/.../aquarium.html )
A DSB is not the be all end all and each person has to figure out what works for them.

 

[adrian]

Well this was a good thread, cant expect people not to get offended if you say your tank is going to crash with a DSB and you cant offer any proof as to why...Try and bring out some facts why tanks with a DSB will crash, and I will try to bring out some facts why a DSB wont crash, and you know what, well both come up empty handed because no such facts exisit, mearly opinions and specualtion. This could be a healthy convo if someone could post all of these mysterious acticles that have been written on the subject, this reminds me of the whole thing about IO being made in China or whereever and now being unsuitable for use, no one could ever back that up either. Stop getting offended and stand your ground, if you make a statement like you tank is going to crash with a DSB you better be able to back it up

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
if properly cared could a dsb work forever....i dont think so AND HERES WHY.....well i made thstatement earlier that youd have to replace the bottom half....well no one believes me....well i hate to say this but in a the ocean new sand is placed on top of existing sand...so the gap between the anoxic and aerobic zones are never depleted, in our closed systems they are continusly getting smaller..... i hope this awnser your question
So your logic is that the deepest part of the sand bed continually gets buried deeper because more sand is deposited on top of those areas of the deep sand bed. Correct?
While I agree the sand is continually having water moving over it I can't buy that new sand is being continually deposited on top of the old sand. If this were the case then the depths on reef lagoons would be getting shallower and all that loose sand would be killing off the reefs. I do know that silt washign down from inland is killing off reefs and making the reef lagoons lose some depth.
Your other belief of the bottom portion needing to be replaced may or may not be accurate (I have no way to prove or disprove). But your worry/concern with a DSB is that anaerobic zone (without oxygen) is continually getting larger and encroaching up towards the surface of your DSB and then releasing toxins into your DSB. This is countered with have critters that sift the upper levels of your DSB - pods, worms, fighting conchs, nassarius snails. If you don't have these critters then I too would share your concern.
I would say that as long as you have healthy infauna in the upper reaches of your DSB then it would be getting a good level of oxygen down into the sand.
Lastly - if you are worried about duplicating the ocean in your tank then following your logic we should not be removing the lower portion of the sand bed but rather replacing the upper portion of the sand bed.
OT - not sure who called you narrow minded - but I have been called a lot worse on this message board and others. One post about SUV's comes to mind ....

 

[adrian]

Hey man Im not trying to flame you or anything, I just want to some proof as to why a DSB will untimately crash given its set up and maintained properly over time, and when I say maintained I am in no way taking into consideration the entire bed being replaced after a period of time. At first you said something about bacteria becoming saturated and this is why a DSB will crash, now you say its because detritus builds up at the bottom. We can try and mimic nature as best we can, but in the long run we cant touch mothers natures reef system

 

[adrian]

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
because of this failure of decompostion we can get nusance alge even with readings of 0
what failure of decompisition? just re-read the last few strings and did not find any refernce ....

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
Organic compounds/proteins inherently have N. This N is cycled. This is one of the main "wow" factors to the DSB supposedly, right? That it can process dissolved N in a single bound? Faster than a speeding copepod, returning it to the N(sub)2 gas we pass (er, our systems that is)? OK, what happens to the rest of that lovely degenerative conglomerative goo that entails detrital matter and organismal tissue/waste? (Hint: think phosphorous).
meaning
Bacterial action converting organic phosphates to leached orthophosphates. Algae utilizing orthophosphates and leaching pooling organic phosphates. Bacterial action converting organic phosphates to leached orthophosphates. Algae utilizing orthophosphates and leaching pooling organic phosphates.
marine bio chemisrty 101
That "goo" is taken care of by the anerobes that eat the stuff found in an area with a lack of oxygen. Which is why a good DSB will not produce phospates to leach back into the system unless those anerobes are passed into the water.....
anaerobe
SYLLABICATION: an·aer·obe
NOUN: An organism, such as a bacterium, that can live in the absence of atmospheric oxygen.
LOVELY - DSB 102

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
when the anoxic zone gets to high up in the dsb, that is when alge growth is fueled, until then you are completely right...
The anaerobic zone won't climb to the upper reaches if you have enough worms and pods living in teh upper reaches ..... this is a cyclical arguement.
On your prepared foods .... even if you make your own food you will still be adding some sort of "stuff" including metals to your tank. The idea of a DSB handling all of these pollutants though is ludicrous .... that is why a successful reef needs multiple forms of filtration ......

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mnreefman
in a reef tank the majority of filtration is the lr and ls.....how is asking it do what it is SUPPOSED to do ludicris???.. this is what we ask of our dsbs though. Maybe this is what we are led to belive....but how many different filters do you run? our closed loop systems can not handle the bioload over a peroid of time...
. it just isnt a long term solution...and becuase of this ill use 1" of sand ill do weekly water changes and ill help out by siphoning detius...
Like many people have stated - you can not rely on just one type of filtration. To rely solely on one type of filtration source is ludicrous.
What I use on my 20 Gallon:
HBO with Carbon
LR
DSB - LS
Water Changes
What I am planning on for my 140:
LR
DSB - LS
Skimmer
Sump - potential for running carbon pads/phosphate pads as needed
Refugium - with Macro Algea, LS and LR
I guess we'll agree to disagree, but jsut so you know - I do not think what you are doing is wrong or will lead to some massive tank crash.