Fire's Coming This Way

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/40#post_3392043
Exactly Reef. You Bionic said it was racism by people like me and BP and that we basically deserve this. You can't flip this one Bionic, your "all those brown people" comment revealed your true racism. You see no difference between American citizens and illegals from Central America. Guess what? Most Hispanics I know don't see themselves as Mexican or Costa Rican or whatever. They see themselves as American. You and your dem buddies see illegals as voters. Fox news has repeatedly showed Democratics passing voter registration papers to the people in those anti 1070 protests, including people with signs that said stuff like "Undocumented doesn't make me a criminal". How can you possibly justify a criminal act like arson by saying it's justified for us trying to stop criminals from disregarding our laws? You sir, and those who think like you, are encouraging this criminal behavior. But the good news is, despite people like you and the media, people all across America(of all races) are waking up to this invasion of criminals.
Mantis, you're taking the "all those brown people" completely out of context. You're here lambasting the illegals for intentioanlkly starting these fires. 99% of the illegals coming across the border are of Mexican, Honduran, El Salvadoran, and other Central American country decents. Those individual's skin pigment is mostly "brown/tan" in color. Arizona has hundreds of thousands of LEGAL Mexicans, Hondurans, Central Americans, etc. that have the exact same skin tone. You're sitting there with your "over the top" reaction stating that they should setup alligators, land mines, and gun turrents to take care of these "illegals" as they cross the border, or chase down the one's that are already here, and deport them back to their respective countries. My statement of "all those of brown color" should watch out, was a simple fact of - how do you tell which "brown" person is legal, and which "brown" person is illegal? You can't. You have the potential of incorrectly targeting an individual for being illegal simply based on the color of their skin. That's not racism, that's racial profiling. You call it what you want.
I'm not a Democrat. I'm a Centrist. In the last two local elections in San Antonio, my candidate preferences were for Democrats, Republicans, and Independents. I don't vote party lines. I RESEARCH a candidates platform, and if their beliefs resemble what I want to see changed in our government system, I vote for them.
You know how many thousands of individuals are in this country that are defined as "illegal" simply on the basis they haven't applied for US Citizenship yet? My deceased mother-in'law lived here 60 years as an "illegal" from Scotland. She just never took the time to sit down and take the test and go through the rhetoric to get her citizenship. I used to joke with her that if she ticked me off again, I was going to steal her Green Card and get her deported back to Edinburgh where she was born.
I don't have a clue what you mean by this statement - " How can you possibly justify a criminal act like arson by saying it's justified for us trying to stop criminals from disregarding our laws?" I guess you're referring to my question about an illegal or a US felon starting a fire.
An illegal immigrant accidently starts a fire in an area where it's legal to have a campfire if you choose - should that illegal immigarnt be charged for arson for starting a legal fire?
A US citizen that is a known felon starts a fire in an area where it's legal to have a campfire if you choose - should that US felon be charged for arson for starting a legal fire?
You're view is that if you're a 'criminal', then no matter what you do, whether it's legal or not, you're automatically guilty of that offense. So if a known pedophile goes camping and starts a legal fire that gets out of hand, and causes one of these major fire outbreaks, he's automatically guilty of arson simply because he's a pedophile. But if a priest were to go camping at the exact same spot, and have the exact same fire get out of hand, and cause the exact same outbreak, he's not guilty of arson because he's simply an innocent priest that let a campfire go astray.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392091
Mantis, you're taking the "all those brown people" completely out of context. You're here lambasting the illegals for intentioanlkly starting these fires. 99% of the illegals coming across the border are of Mexican, Honduran, El Salvadoran, and other Central American country decents. Those individual's skin pigment is mostly "brown/tan" in color. Arizona has hundreds of thousands of LEGAL Mexicans, Hondurans, Central Americans, etc. that have the exact same skin tone. You're sitting there with your "over the top" reaction stating that they should setup alligators, land mines, and gun turrents to take care of these "illegals" as they cross the border, or chase down the one's that are already here, and deport them back to their respective countries. My statement of "all those of brown color" should watch out, was a simple fact of - how do you tell which "brown" person is legal, and which "brown" person is illegal? You can't. You have the potential of incorrectly targeting an individual for being illegal simply based on the color of their skin. That's not racism, that's racial profiling. You call it what you want.
I'm not a Democrat. I'm a Centrist. In the last two local elections in San Antonio, my candidate preferences were for Democrats, Republicans, and Independents. I don't vote party lines. I RESEARCH a candidates platform, and if their beliefs resemble what I want to see changed in our government system, I vote for them.
You know how many thousands of individuals are in this country that are defined as "illegal" simply on the basis they haven't applied for US Citizenship yet? My deceased mother-in'law lived here 60 years as an "illegal" from Scotland. She just never took the time to sit down and take the test and go through the rhetoric to get her citizenship. I used to joke with her that if she ticked me off again, I was going to steal her Green Card and get her deported back to Edinburgh where she was born.
I don't have a clue what you mean by this statement - " How can you possibly justify a criminal act like arson by saying it's justified for us trying to stop criminals from disregarding our laws?" I guess you're referring to my question about an illegal or a US felon starting a fire.
An illegal immigrant accidently starts a fire in an area where it's legal to have a campfire if you choose - should that illegal immigarnt be charged for arson for starting a legal fire?
A US citizen that is a known felon starts a fire in an area where it's legal to have a campfire if you choose - should that US felon be charged for arson for starting a legal fire?
You're view is that if you're a 'criminal', then no matter what you do, whether it's legal or not, you're automatically guilty of that offense. So if a known pedophile goes camping and starts a legal fire that gets out of hand, and causes one of these major fire outbreaks, he's automatically guilty of arson simply because he's a pedophile. But if a priest were to go camping at the exact same spot, and have the exact same fire get out of hand, and cause the exact same outbreak, he's not guilty of arson because he's simply an innocent priest that let a campfire go astray.
Your own comment bolded above blows one your argument out of the water. "As they cross" is the key. I think it's time we placed the military on the border because this crap is getting out of hand. We have areas with signs warning American citizens no to go there because the criminals coming across from Mexico have made it so dangerous. To hell with that. Time to get serious. As far as tracking down illegals already here it's easy. No public services to non citizens who don't have a Visa. We wont have to round them up, most will leave on their own.

 

[mantisman51]

I have never written nor supported shooting, placing mines or wild animals on the border. Go ahead look up all posts by me........ waiting......waiting.....ah there's none from me. So, moving on. As I have said more times than I can count, without controlling who is coming in, we don't know who's coming across. The same people who are calling for lax border security for the "underprivileged" workers, are giving the same protection and encouragement to the murderers, rapists and smugglers. I have a young man living with me right now who is Hispanic. Why? Because he needs help and he's a good kid. I don't give a damn about what race anyone is. That doesn't mean I want my country invaded by millions of criminals who flagrantly disregard the law. I don't care what race they are. You can put your head in the sand and scream "racism" all you want. As Reef said, at Organ Pipe monument 2/3 of the park is closed to us citizens because of the drug and people smugglers. They will kill anyone who sees them to keep from being caught.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392122
I have never written nor supported shooting, placing mines or wild animals on the border. Go ahead look up all posts by me........ waiting......waiting.....ah there's none from me. So, moving on. As I have said more times than I can count, without controlling who is coming in, we don't know who's coming across. The same people who are calling for lax border security for the "underprivileged" workers, are giving the same protection and encouragement to the murderers, rapists and smugglers. I have a young man living with me right now who is Hispanic. Why? Because he needs help and he's a good kid. I don't give a damn about what race anyone is. That doesn't mean I want my country invaded by millions of criminals who flagrantly disregard the law. I don't care what race they are. You can put your head in the sand and scream "racism" all you want. As Reef said, at Organ Pipe monument 2/3 of the park is closed to us citizens because of the drug and people smugglers. They will kill anyone who sees them to keep from being caught.
Go back to page 2 of this thread and read bigarn and reef's comments. You didn't say them, but you didn't disagree with the comments either.
Millions of criminals? Where are these statistics. The primamry law most of these illegals break is not following the proper procedures to obtain work visas to work here legally. Most of the migrant workers come over for the crop seasons, then head back home when the jobs run dry. If US citizens were willing to work those hard labor jobs for the same pay as these illegals get, then there'd be no jobs for them to come over and obtain. Take away the incentives, and fewer will come across. Drug smugglers? Legalize all the drugs. If these drug users in he US can readily get them here for a cheaper price, then the drug cartels have no incentives to smuggle their drugs here. The only reason drug addicts in the US are violent, is because it costs them too much money to obtain their 'fix'. So they rob, steal, vandalize, do whatever it takes to make money to buy more expensive drugs. Sell cocaine for the price of a six pack, and problem solved. It's not mine, yours, or the governments business to dictate what a person does to their body. If they want to end their life by ODing on some drug, that's their personal business and demons to address.

 

[reefraff]

Difference between me and Mantis is I would put mines and gators on the border. Hell with it. How many innocent US citizens are dead of a directed result of people crossing the border illegally?

 

[bionicarm]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/03/19/what_if_we_deport_them_all/
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/03/pdf/rising_tide.pdf

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392131
Go back to page 2 of this thread and read bigarn and reef's comments. You didn't say them, but you didn't disagree with the comments either.
Millions of criminals? Where are these statistics. The primamry law most of these illegals break is not following the proper procedures to obtain work visas to work here legally. Most of the migrant workers come over for the crop seasons, then head back home when the jobs run dry. If US citizens were willing to work those hard labor jobs for the same pay as these illegals get, then there'd be no jobs for them to come over and obtain. Take away the incentives, and fewer will come across. Drug smugglers? Legalize all the drugs. If these drug users in he US can readily get them here for a cheaper price, then the drug cartels have no incentives to smuggle their drugs here. The only reason drug addicts in the US are violent, is because it costs them too much money to obtain their 'fix'. So they rob, steal, vandalize, do whatever it takes to make money to buy more expensive drugs. Sell cocaine for the price of a six pack, and problem solved. It's not mine, yours, or the governments business to dictate what a person does to their body. If they want to end their life by ODing on some drug, that's their personal business and demons to address.
So because he didn't write that he disagrees with comments made by others he must then agree with them? That is pathetically weak.
Farmers can easily get Visa's for migrant farmers so that isn't a issue.
So rather then enforce our borders you would rather just legalize drugs? Not only foolish it wouldn't end smuggling. If we ever do legalize drugs in this country they will be heavily taxed which still makes it profitable to smuggle them in.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392142
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/03/19/what_if_we_deport_them_all/
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/03/pdf/rising_tide.pdf
For someone who professes not to be a Democrat you sure post a lot of stuff from left wing organizations.
Deport them all. Then if we have a worker shortage we can expand work visa programs so we can control who comes into our country.

 

[mantisman51]

Too many. I think I told this before, a long time ago. This is 100% true and before this incident I was ambivalent about the illegal immigration issue.
Helicopters and BP trucks are beyond common here. You see them day or night, constantly. One night around 1:30 or 2:00 a.m. I awoke to a helicopter directly over my mobile home. It was close enough the wake was shaking the trailer. It is a 1600 sq ft doublewide, so it takes a lot to move it. Out on the dirt road in front of my house and the wash behind me, there was more BP and sheriffs than I could count and they were flying. I went out front and a BP and sheriff told me to get in the house and lock the doors. I did and went to sleep. The next morning I was getting gas and I asked the BP what the excitement was all about. He said they caught 20 or so illegals across the highway and one of them mentioned to the BP that one of the group who ran off was on a billboard in Mexico and wanted for several rapes and murders there. They shut down the highway and the helicopter found him trying to kick in my neighbors back door. The Vazquez's almost had a serial killer in their house. He was armed with "several" pistols according to the BP. This is why we must seal the border and deport all illegals. We catch about 10% of these illegals. How many other serious criminals are here? We know MS 13 has become the worst street gang in the U.S. and they are illegal immigrants by and large. This isn't about race or scapegoating. We have a serious problem and if we don't get serious, our cities will look like the crime-filled cities in Mexico and Central America. In some areas, it already does.

 

[deejeff442]

i tried to get a visa for a worker i had.i went to an immigration lawyer and he said if he dont have any skills that a white boy couldnt do he cant get a visa.problem is all the white boys here are lazy.i work with alot of mexicans most are legal but not all.i will tell you from personal experience the white culture is getting or gotten lazy.they want double pay for half the work.
the reason the mexican crime is so high is because of desperation.if they have no money what are they supposed to do?just starve on the side of the road?they are human beings and need to survive too.granted they dont need 4-5 kids but thats another issue..

 

[reefraff]

Even the ones who come here and keep their noses clean are not a positive, but they aren't a major threat either. They pay no income taxes and a lot send a portion of their money out of the country so they are a drag on the economy but tend to not break the law other than being here illegally. But as long as those who just want a job can walk across the violent criminals can come in with them.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deejeff442 http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392153
i tried to get a visa for a worker i had.i went to an immigration lawyer and he said if he dont have any skills that a white boy couldnt do he cant get a visa.problem is all the white boys here are lazy.i work with alot of mexicans most are legal but not all.i will tell you from personal experience the white culture is getting or gotten lazy.they want double pay for half the work.
the reason the mexican crime is so high is because of desperation.if they have no money what are they supposed to do?just starve on the side of the road?they are human beings and need to survive too.granted they dont need 4-5 kids but thats another issue..
Yeah, and when the hard working guy comes across he doesn't pay income taxes and takes government services for those 4 or 5 kids he brought with him. If you say we need to 40 dollar a day laborers OK, but where do you draw the line? I remember the myth of the hard working stoop farmer at the same time my brother was being forced out of the drywall business because illegals would come in and do the work for 7 bucks an hour instead of 12.

 

[deejeff442]

maybe so,but not in my business around here.if the guys are illegal we pay the legal guy the check with the taxes taken out and he pays the illegals accordingly.i see them hanging on street corners by the hundreds in dallas.i know most dont get work everyday and those guys are paid cash.but me and the guys i know in my business pay with checks.
i cannot find any and i mean any white boys born and raised here worth $10 an hour.the two kids working for me are white but they are from up north.the locals are just plain lazy.
obviously the health care thing is a joke.my wife works at a county hospital and 80% of the babies born are from illigals.they wont give a ss# ever.i have no idea what should be done but tell ya the truth the area around here would be 10 years behind if it werent for these guys working here.

 

[mantisman51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deejeff442 http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392153
i tried to get a visa for a worker i had.i went to an immigration lawyer and he said if he dont have any skills that a white boy couldnt do he cant get a visa.problem is all the white boys here are lazy.i work with alot of mexicans most are legal but not all.i will tell you from personal experience the white culture is getting or gotten lazy.they want double pay for half the work.
the reason the mexican crime is so high is because of desperation.if they have no money what are they supposed to do?just starve on the side of the road?they are human beings and need to survive too.granted they dont need 4-5 kids but thats another issue..
Why is Mexico's or any other countries poor our problem? Is that statement harsh and uncaring? Yeah, so what? There are billions of people around the world living in abject poverty. Why don't we invite them all here? Why should people from Central America be all that matters? Mexico is a filthy slum mostly. It's a slum that they have chose by electing crooks and thieves. Let them stew in their own filth.

 

[deejeff442]

oh i agree ,this country is not going too well lately either.i have no problem getting rid of all the illegals.for the most part 90% of the guys i work around are legal.all these contractors are scared of the $25000 fine for hiring illegals.i dont agree with putting an illegal laborer to work for $40 a day.seems to me there are plenty of legals around to do the work.they cost more than the illegals but they are more skilled also.the burden the illegals put on the country far outweigh the benefits.

 

[beth]

The price for having people in this country illegally is too great, and the benefit of having cheaper lettuce and unskilled laborers working on our homes on the cheap is hardly worth filling up the country with people who are breaking the law, and who are totally unaccounted for. To boot, they pay no taxes! We, instead, pay for their children's education, their medical, and the use of any and every public service out there. We also pay when they commit crimes.
The social and economic ramifications of this activity can hardly be covered in a forum conversation. It has nothing to do with racism or prejudice. The citizens of this country have a right to expect that visitors here abide by our laws, just as we are expected to abide by the laws of countries that we visit or live in. What do you think would happen to an American citizen if they were found illegally in another country? Yes, thrown in some crap hole prison and the key thrown away.
I was born in Canada. My parents are both American citizens. I was naturalized as a child even though both my parents are American citizens and my dad served 25 years in the Navy, active in 2 wars.
My son married a woman from China after 4 years of knowing her. She was sponsored by him and myself when she came to the USA to marry my son. That means that we had to take full financial responsibility for her should she need it. She had to prove that the marriage was not a scam and continue to prove it with photos, letters, recommendations, proof of where they live, who would vouch for them, shared bank accounts, etc., etc. She is now a legal permanent resident.
If going though the hoops for the privelage of being in this country is good enough for me and my family then its good enough for every one else.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392165
Why is Mexico's or any other countries poor our problem? Is that statement harsh and uncaring? Yeah, so what? There are billions of people around the world living in abject poverty. Why don't we invite them all here? Why should people from Central America be all that matters? Mexico is a filthy slum mostly. It's a slum that they have chose by electing crooks and thieves. Let them stew in their own filth.
Then why have we been in Iraq for the last 8 years spending almost $1 trillion rebuilding their poor and decrepit lives? Why did we do it in Kuwait? Haiti?
You've honestly never explored Mexico. All you see are the shanty towns along the border cities. Go to Monterrey, Puebla, Guadalajara, Cancun, Ixtapa. Yea, they also have slum areas, but none worse than Harlem, Flint, MI,, Detroit, parts of Houston, and hundreds of other poor communities in the US. Why people from Central America? Uh, because it's a nation directly CONNECTED to North America (i.e the U.S. of A.) Immigrants don't have to cross thousands of miles of water to get here.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392145
For someone who professes not to be a Democrat you sure post a lot of stuff from left wing organizations.
Deport them all. Then if we have a worker shortage we can expand work visa programs so we can control who comes into our country.
I just Googled "What if you deported all illegal immigrants". Do you honestly think ANY conservative blog or site would ever justify allowing illegals to live here?

 

[mantisman51]

I have been all over Mexico. It is one of the poorest nations in the world and the crime is horrendous everywhere. Did you hear about the 22 people massacred in Acapulco? Regardless, I have met so many wonderful Mexican people there. That does not mean they should be here. Mexico needs to fix itself. Not export their poor.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/386238/fire-s-coming-this-way/60#post_3392144
So because he didn't write that he disagrees with comments made by others he must then agree with them? That is pathetically weak.
Farmers can easily get Visa's for migrant farmers so that isn't a issue.
So rather then enforce our borders you would rather just legalize drugs? Not only foolish it wouldn't end smuggling. If we ever do legalize drugs in this country they will be heavily taxed which still makes it profitable to smuggle them in.
Legalize them, and the drug users could "grow their own". Look at the marijuana industry in Northern California. Meth labs are all over this country using chemicals readily available to anyone who wants to buy them. The same could be done for cocaine, heroin, pick one. Didn't some state just recently pass a law that allows a person to grow like 25 sq. ft of marijuana for "medical or personal use"?