Flower's Sump/Fuge Build

2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/380517/flower-s-sump-fuge-build/420#post_3316350

LOL..That is the kind of answers I always got from my science teachers…LOL… No water will be pumped into the overflow either but it will siphon back.. maybe it has something to do with the direction of the water from pumps pull or push.
I will never understand physics. I guess if it won’t siphon, then that will have to do for an explanation, I trust you have done it enough to know what will happen.
Rabbis say they would rather pull out their entire beard by hand than try and teach a woman.
No worries...I remember the days when I first began learning how a syphon worked with gravity and how confusing it was for me to try and think about. For most of us I think it's a little hard to imagine untill you actually see it in action and have a chance to get some hands on experience with it. In all it's confusion...when it comes down to it, you'll soon see that it's a remarkably simple concept just as everyone else does.
That's the difference in how a drilled tank works and a non drilled tank.
In a drilled tank the water just drains because of gravity.
In non-drilled tank...the water has to first travel up (by way of syphon) and over the top of the tank (above the waterline) before it reaches a place (back of the overflow box) untill gravity begins to take over and the water falls down the drain.
Also I think it's fair to say that I am probably not the worlds best teacher. I have an uncanny ability to leave folks more even confused than they were when they first came.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
In total agreement.....Going with the smaller overflow makes perfect sense....I had just questioned the ability of the larger overflow having issues with not being pushed hard enough....We are still within the 3x-5x turnover rate I had wanted through the sump....The additional flow will be inside the tank; where it should be......I think method 1. that CPR recommended would be probably the best option.
Thanks for the pics u mike!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/380517/flower-s-sump-fuge-build/420#post_3316298
Ok, I got another email response back from the guys over at CPR with some questions that we had that Shawn and I want to be sure on. Shawn, brought up the question of having a large overflow with a pump that is well below it's rating. And it does seem that the closer you can get the flow to the rating of the overflow then the more secure the syphon will be.
Also, Flower will want to run the aqua lifter pump 24/7 in order to have the highest chance of success at the prevention of flooding. (Don't freak out, Flower...this is just the best way)
But there are a couple of ways to do it.
1.) Is to run the aqua lifter 24/7 with the output hose submerged underwater in either the overflow, the tank or the sump. This will hold the syphon if the power goes off and will also ensure that the syphon begins draining immediately after the power comes on.
2.) Is to run airline hose from the port on the top of the overflow to a port on a powerhead inside of the tank. This method is recommend to use with a large powerhead as the way that powerheads pull air is not quite as efficient as the way that an aqua lifter pump pulls air.
3.) You can manually start the syphon using your mouth with a piece of airline hose on the port ontop of the overflow with air check valve connected to the end of it in order to aid in the prevention of air building up in the overflow. But air will innevitably build up in time and you would have to periodically remove air from the overflow from time to time. This method is not as efficient as either of the 2 options above or as safe.
Also, in light of the things above...I believe it would be in our best interest to step down one size in overflows. Bringing the rating down from 800GPH to 600GPH. As the CS-90 600GPH overflow would be the one that is most closley rated for Flowers size tank. The only other one smaller than that is the CS-50 which is only rated at 300GPH and that is to small for her.
Shawn, I know that's a little bit more flow than what we had initially talked about. But it still would at least be on the higher end of what we were thinking. We could still get approximately 4x-5x's turnover through the sump while having approx. 1x-2x's through the fuge.
What does everyone else here think? Would the CS-90 be the better choice for Flower?
Any other Ideas?
 
monsinour

monsinour

Active Member
I have my aqua lifter on the same power strip as my return pump. I have simulated a power outage many times by just flipping the switch on the power strip. I have the "suck" line from the lifter hooked up to the overflow, and I have to "blow" line tucked away in the overflow box by the drain to the sump. When power goes off, a flick o the switch, the CPR overflow continues to drain as long as water flows into the overflow which isnt that long. Once the syphon is broken, lack of water around back of the overflow box, the CPR overflow lets the water drop down from the "U" tube and just sits there. While that happens, the return line starts its syphon until the hole in the return gets some air in it and stops that syphon. I get about half a gallon of "backflow" into the sump and still have about 4" total room for more water. I found out today, during my water change, that is is about 2.5 gallons worth of water.
When the power kicks back on, the return pump starts pushing the air out of the return line making some neato bubbles in the DT until the water reaches the top. At this time, the aqualifter kicks in and sucks up the water that is left in the "U" shaped tube. It continues to suck it up until all the water is up and some air can reach under the baffels. It makes a little noise when sucking this air but nothing to be alarmed about. Once the return pump has pushed enough water into the DT to spill over the overflow on the DT side, the lifter pulls the water up and the overflow starts working as normal. No problems have ever occured to me so long as both the return pump and the aqualifer pump are on the same circut.
SO Flower, when plugging things in, make sure both of those pumps are on the same circut to eliminate any worries from a power failure.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsinour http:///forum/thread/380517/flower-s-sump-fuge-build/440#post_3316415
I have my aqua lifter on the same power strip as my return pump. I have simulated a power outage many times by just flipping the switch on the power strip. I have the "suck" line from the lifter hooked up to the overflow, and I have to "blow" line tucked away in the overflow box by the drain to the sump. When power goes off, a flick o the switch, the CPR overflow continues to drain as long as water flows into the overflow which isnt that long. Once the syphon is broken, lack of water around back of the overflow box, the CPR overflow lets the water drop down from the "U" tube and just sits there. While that happens, the return line starts its syphon until the hole in the return gets some air in it and stops that syphon. I get about half a gallon of "backflow" into the sump and still have about 4" total room for more water. I found out today, during my water change, that is is about 2.5 gallons worth of water.
When the power kicks back on, the return pump starts pushing the air out of the return line making some neato bubbles in the DT until the water reaches the top. At this time, the aqualifter kicks in and sucks up the water that is left in the "U" shaped tube. It continues to suck it up until all the water is up and some air can reach under the baffels. It makes a little noise when sucking this air but nothing to be alarmed about. Once the return pump has pushed enough water into the DT to spill over the overflow on the DT side, the lifter pulls the water up and the overflow starts working as normal. No problems have ever occured to me so long as both the return pump and the aqualifer pump are on the same circut.
SO Flower, when plugging things in, make sure both of those pumps are on the same circut to eliminate any worries from a power failure.

Good tip..so both pumps on the same outlet..
Thank you for all detail that helps.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Wow!!!! Good work guys... This is exactly what I'm talking about. People all pitching in, with ideas, knowledge, pics, and first hand working knowledge. Goes a long way and takes alot of guess work out of things. Good pics u mike and excellent detail study monsinour!!!
On another note progressing along, but have run into computer issues so didn't get anything updated. I did get the eurobracing glued into place, and started prepping bubble catch to be glued. Hopefully this evening can get some computer issues resolved and pics posted....
 
monsinour

monsinour

Active Member
As I do tech support for a living, well when i actually have a job, PM me your issues and I can probably fix it or atleast get you pointed in the right direction.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Ok a real stupid question regarding the return pumps!!!! Have we discussed the method of plumbing the return back to the tank? What are we looking at as far as head pressure??? The only thing that concerns me on the Eheim is not alot of spec data. Just says max head 3m which isn't alot depending how it's plumbed and again no data curves to break down numbers to look at?!?!?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/380517/flower-s-sump-fuge-build/440#post_3316623
Ok a real stupid question regarding the return pumps!!!! Have we discussed the method of plumbing the return back to the tank? What are we looking at as far as head pressure??? The only thing that concerns me on the Eheim is not alot of spec data. Just says max head 3m which isn't alot depending how it's plumbed and again no data curves to break down numbers to look at?!?!?
I don't think we've discussed the option of plumbing the return back, no....why do you ask?
Head pressure...I don't think we have that excact data yet. Flower, can we get the distance from the bottom of the stand to the top of the tank, please???
No, unfortunately there's not much in the way of specs as far as the head pressure is concerned that I have found. They are still fairly new in the states. The pumps themselves however have been available across seas for quite some time now (about 4 years I think). I did manage to find some sites across the pond that were discussing these pumps and did offer more reviews. And from the information that I could dig up on them, bottom line is that they are powerful, quiet and to the best of my knowlege, reliable pumps. Out of a couple of dozen reviews I really didn't find anyone that had anything negative to say about the way that they performed. Other than you don't want them to suck a bunch of air because they will burb for a while if they do. A couple of guys mentioned that they estimated the head pressure to be slightly less than the origional eheims as they use less power so they probably wouldn't push quite as good. But again, no spec sheets on the subject.
If we're looking to keep the cost down than perhaps a Mag would be better than to get a bigger Eheim if we didn't want to roll the dice.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/380517/flower-s-sump-fuge-build/440#post_3316638
I don't think we've discussed the option of plumbing the return back, no....why do you ask?
Head pressure...I don't think we have that excact data yet. Flower, can we get the distance from the bottom of the stand to the top of the tank, please???
No, unfortunately there's not much in the way of specs as far as the head pressure is concerned that I have found. They are still fairly new in the states. The pumps themselves however have been available across seas for quite some time now (about 4 years I think). I did manage to find some sites across the pond that were discussing these pumps and did offer more reviews. And from the information that I could dig up on them, bottom line is that they are powerful, quiet and to the best of my knowlege, reliable pumps. Out of a couple of dozen reviews I really didn't find anyone that had anything negative to say about the way that they performed. Other than you don't want them to suck a bunch of air because they will burb for a while if they do. A couple of guys mentioned that they estimated the head pressure to be slightly less than the origional eheims as they use less power so they probably wouldn't push quite as good. But again, no spec sheets on the subject.
If we're looking to keep the cost down than perhaps a Mag would be better than to get a bigger Eheim if we didn't want to roll the dice.

4.5 feet.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member

Looks likeTV time with mom, I always make a post before signing off so I can track where I left off, so you guys won't think I'm crazy LOL...so much happens when I go off to work, have a great night everyone!
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Come on beaslbob!!!!!! you were clued in on page 1!!!!!!

Ok Corey!!!! Shoot....easy my mind on the return/plumbing situation.....Does anyone know how or is there a way to calculate the loss of the pump over a distance....We are fighting 4 1/2' of head plus whatever elbows and such we use in the plumbing, so lets not forget to add in all the adapters, elbows, and such into the equation. I want to make sure we don't get to the top of the tank and have a bare trickle back to the tank. Again goal here is 3x-5x turnover through the sump, to match the overflow box we've picked....Come on you math engineers!!!!!
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
As I had posted earlier this morning that I was going to update, but my laptop battery decided to short, so the computer kept shutting off, and then I remembered my daughter had the same issue. Pulled the battery and back up, but then had some software conflicts.....so hopefully they are resolved....have to order a new battery though....
This is the start of the bubble trap being laid out and final fitting before the gluing takes place.

Another shot after the bubble trapped is glued....Square still in place so I can assure it stays square.

Just a quick shot of the status of the sump.....Was getting itchy to put water back to it while I was working on the bubble trap, so me being me.......


In this pic you can get a glimpse of the sump with about 8" of water in it.....Also you'll notice that I took the round over bit and rounded over all the edges....One of my pet peeves is sharp abrupt corners.....Always a little painful to reach for something and catch a sharp edge, so all the corners, even along the bottom where rounded over, and they still need some sanding, and then onto the wet sanding, before final polishing....

Again sump leak testing with 8" of water....I actually took the tape measure and measured the depth......
 
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