Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
I should have gotten in on this sooner. My opinion is as follows.
Gay Marriage is wrong - key word being marriage. I believe that marriage is b/t a man and woman- set forth by God as a covenant relationship. .
Thank you for summing up this entire debate in one simple statement, key words are "My opinion & I believe" once again we have a religious overtone where someone is expressing that because of their religion they are superior to me and my tribe and that because they are superior they should have the power to limit the quality of my life prohibit me from having the same privileges.......................For those of you with children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, ask yourself this simple question, don't you want them to have the same privelages as you?

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by Jovial
Whats legal and what is moral are often completely different. Killing babies through abortion is also legal, but in no means moral. Hate comes in many forms. There seems to be a great deal "hate" and of intolerance from the gays towards people who do not accept their lifestyle.
Um,,..wouldn't you be a little angry if people were going around bashing your friends, limiting your rights, telling you that you can't do this, can't do that all because of who you are.....
.
many years ago, my neighbor who was gay had gas poured on him and then sat on fire, how sad, all because he was gay, wonderful person who gave and gave only to have his life ended by someone who's religious views instructed him to kill for other reason than he was gay and had to die......So yes, a little angry that people don't accept me, you would too if the table was flipped....Anyone want me to post the pics of my face busted in, crushed right orbit, swollen brain with fluid buidup, busted lip, multiple laserations (sp) and a face that was almost totally blue. All because I was walking down the street with agroup of friends and we were attacked for no reason, coma for 3 days, almost had to have brain surgery to release preassure from fluid buildup, still have ongoing issues with spelling and math and memory problems.....Shall I go on and on and on about my friends that have had the same issue or shall you continue to tell me that you are better than me

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
Um,,..wouldn't you be a little angry if people were going around bashing your friends, limiting your rights, telling you that you can't do this, can't do that all because of who you are.....
.
many years ago, my neighbor who was gay had gas poured on him and then sat on fire, how sad, all because he was gay, wonderful person who gave and gave only to have his life ended by someone who's religious views instructed him to kill for other reason than he was gay and had to die......So yes, a little angry that people don't accept me, you would too if the table was flipped....Anyone want me to post the pics of my face busted in, crushed right orbit, swollen brain with fluid buidup, busted lip, multiple laserations (sp) and a face that was almost totally blue. All because I was walking down the street with agroup of friends and we were attacked for no reason, coma for 3 days, almost had to have brain surgery to release preassure from fluid buildup, still have ongoing issues with spelling and math and memory problems.....Shall I go on and on and on about my friends that have had the same issue or shall you continue to tell me that you are better than me
this is simple off topic but who cares i like you maxalmon i am straight my gf is bi i have seen some of the good things you have done you are a helluva guy i only wish people could see people for their merits and not there seuality like it's anyone's business to begin with...tobin

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
I agree with the black market idea, people are going to get abortions regardless of if its legal or not. If they do it illegallly there would be more deaths associated with unproper medical conditions/facilities and unsterile environments. Simply, there would be many young women dying. This arguement is apples and pineapples when it comes to comparison, simply there is none. The drugs you mention are absoultely unsafe and they make people zombies basically and cause life-long addictions that leads to death and broken families. People who perform abortions are not hurting themselves neither are they hurting the patient if it is done correctly. I believe in the right of choice, however I believe it is moraly wrong. Drugs are not just a medical issue having to do with dirty needles and toxic fumes... its also about what people do and how they behave when they are on drugs, and when the come down from their high.... its a much different issue.

Not entirely true, I know of many cases where a person had an abortion in a medical facility and could never become pregnant again afterwards.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Pontius
1 do you agree or disagree with that? and do you agree or disagree that Iran is a much bigger threat than Iraq ever was?

I agree with that. Sadaam understood that remaining secular kept himself in power. He also had the third largest army in the world and that held Iran in check. And Iran is potentially a greater threat. However Sadaam was a threat to Isreal more so than ourselves I believe. And I am sorry, he constantly broke the peace accords and shot at our pilots repeatedly when they flew over....which violates the peace accord he agreed to. His violation of the peace accord had me stating we should deal with him before 9/11 Happenned.
I will say this, I don't think we can get the three groups in Iraq to get along anytime soon. Look at how long it has taken our own country to get over the majority of our prejudices and to date we still carry some from the evidence in this thread. The rebuilding we should not have played a major role in. The majority of the fighting is sunni and shite with terrorists mixed in....sure this is a stomping ground for us to remove terrorists now. However I do not feel we will leave this country in a stable state...no matter what we do...but we should give this operation ago and see if the Iraqi government can take control, if not we pull out to Kuwait and leave forces there ready to move in if the situaton gets worse (genocide) after we pull out.
We are in a catch 22, I feel it will get worse if we leave, but most likely get much better if we stay....

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
this is simple off topic but who cares i like you maxalmon i am straight my gf is bi i have seen some of the good things you have done you are a helluva guy i only wish people could see people for their merits and not there seuality like it's anyone's business to begin with...tobin
Thank you.....Scott and I are not "in your face" most pople have no clue and are usually shocked when they realize we are couple, but when it comes to our rights as an INDIVIDUAL, or as a gay couple I can become very vocal, I just don't think anyone should tell another person what to do based on a religion (raised

[hr]
Southern Baptist) So I'm back to the reason for this posting and that marriage is a HUGE issue for me and my tribe and anyone who is against it will not get my vote

 

[darthtang aw]

maxalmon...does it have to be termed marriage or will a civil Union suffice for you?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Not entirely true, I know of many cases where a person had an abortion in a medical facility and could never become pregnant again afterwards.
That is true, and there needs to be education given to women so that they understand this....I believe babies are gifts from God and there are many circumstances that go into wanting or needing to have an abortion, I just think people should have the right and that they choose wisely because of the potential medical effects, emotional baggage, and moral issues that come afterwords.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
Thank you for summing up this entire debate in one simple statement, key words are "My opinion & I believe" once again we have a religious overtone where someone is expressing that because of their religion they are superior to me and my tribe and that because they are superior they should have the power to limit the quality of my life prohibit me from having the same privileges.......................For those of you with children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, ask yourself this simple question, don't you want them to have the same privelages as you?
I said my opinion because you don't have to accept my believes and I am not forcing them on you. You can live your life anyway that you want, however I believe this is the message that God gives us. I do not, and it should read in my post that no one is superior than another. I don't believe that people should have power over you so yes...get a civil union, have a ceremony, but to do it under God I think is wrong, because it is not of God. I believe that relationships are everything, and the fact that you have your relationship is fine....As far as my kids go.... there are rights and privledges... You have the right to be with whom ever, however marriage is a privledge that has certain conditions... I am sorry about what happened to your friend and you, I don't condone or think it is right how people treat homosexuals, the treatment is similar to how some racial groups are treated...so i believe in and endorse fair treatment.
Help me understand this...You don't want to be with someone of the opposite ---, yet you should be married and have children? In your opinion why should this be ok or your right?
I know that there are children that are orphans and adoptees, that need a home... and I rather see them in a family then with none, but I just want to know your view point Maxalmon (and I must note this here otherwise you or others may think I am attacking you or whatever- I am not- just want to know how you feel)

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Pontius
I didn't say the Bible says it's ok to be gay. now show me one passage in the Bible where it says God ordains man to FORCE other men to you can't follow his word in order to get to heaven. God gave free will to man to go to heaven or hell. so explain how it's YOUR place tell others how they should or shouldn't live their personal lives.
gn 6:22
gn 40:8
ex5:3
jos 2:8-13
2kings 7:3-10
2chr30:11
est2:10
jon 3:4-9
mt4:18-20
.....mt28 :18-20
.....john 4:35
if u need more let me know
I said to show me one passage that says God ordains man to force other men to follow his word to get into heaven. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and READ all 11 verses you posted. not one of them....NOT ONE, has anything to do with God telling man to force other men to accept God's word. it's almost like you flipped through the Bible and picked verses at random without even reading them. so....
if u need more time to find verses that actually fit the discussion, let me know.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
but to do it under God I think is wrong, because it is not of God.
That much, we agree on. if you are saying getting married under the Christian God. because the Bible clearly spells out that homosexuality is a sin. so if one believes the Bible is the word of God (not sure if Maxalmon has said he believes that or not), then obviously they would agree that God does not ordain a homosexual union. but like I've been trying to point out, the laws of man and the laws of God are 2 different things. and nowhere in the Bible does it say God gives man the authority to enforce the word of God on other men.
Originally Posted by Rylan1
Help me understand this...You don't want to be with someone of the opposite ---, yet you should be married and have children? In your opinion why should this be ok or your right?
I know that there are children that are orphans and adoptees, that need a home... and I rather see them in a family then with none, but I just want to know your view point Maxalmon (and I must note this here otherwise you or others may think I am attacking you or whatever- I am not- just want to know how you feel)
well, you know there was a time in America when blacks were seen as "less than human" and there was a time when many state governments attempted to sterilize minorities so they would not be able to procreate. should you have the right to procreate or have a relationship with anyone you choose? should you have to defend yourself for being the way you are? if not, then why would any other person need to explain why they should be allowed to marry and have children? are gays less human than you are?

 

[petjunkie]

People get married all the time who aren't Christian and many Christians have no problems with gay marriage so I don't believe marriage should be a religious issue any more. I'm an atheist, does that mean I can't get married? On topic, I don't think most politicians really have any morals, they just go with what's popular so I don't want them dictating my life. My opinion is if everyone's a consenting adult then it's their choice and they will deal with it. I personally would not choose to abort should I get pregnant but I'm not picking for other people, however I despise women who use it as a birth control method instead of a last resort as it should be.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by petjunkie
People get married all the time who aren't Christian and many Christians have no problems with gay marriage so I don't believe marriage should be a religious issue any more. I'm an atheist, does that mean I can't get married? On topic, I don't think most politicians really have any morals, they just go with what's popular so I don't want them dictating my life. My opinion is if everyone's a consenting adult then it's their choice and they will deal with it. I personally would not choose to abort should I get pregnant but I'm not picking for other people, however I despise women who use it as a birth control method instead of a last resort as it should be.
You are correct, but when you ask yourself what is marriage, there is a clear answer. Marriage is b/w a man an a woman. What is the purpose of marriage? these are all clear to me... I'm not saying that gay people can't have monogomous commited relationships, neither am I saying that the ones that do can't be given state's rights and benefits, however, what I am saying is that marriage is sacred and if you are an atheist that is your choice. Again marriage is a priveledge and not a right, so why is it wrong for people to intermarry, or marry multiple people, or marry underage people? There are conditions to marry, heck you get a marriage license. And regards to you being atheist- and I not telling you to believe in any particular God or religion, but I just wonder when you look at the world and how perfect it is- how can you say that it is was created by mere chance and that nothing else was involved?

 

[maxalmon]

Ok, so Brittany

[hr]
can come to vegas, get drunk and make a decision in the middle of the night to get married and then get a divorce 72 hours latter.
.
That just cracks me up, yet Me and my partner, totally sober and having a well established relationship do not have this option because of a religious based ideal, anyone see how wrong this is?
.
Whatever happened to good "Seperation of church and state"?, everyones throwing around god this god that, just watch, at some point this is going to be the core issue and it will make it to the supreme court
.
A civil union doesn't give me the exact same legal safeguards as a "marriage" if it did, then I would have no problem. Terminology is not point, it's a simple fact that we simply want the same EXACT benefits as everyone else, whats wrong with that?

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
Ok, so Brittany

[hr]
can come to vegas, get drunk and make a decision in the middle of the night to get married and then get a divorce 72 hours latter.
.
That just cracks me up, yet Me and my partner, totally sober and having a well established relationship do not have this option because of a religious based ideal, anyone see how wrong this is?
.
Whatever happened to good "Seperation of church and state"?, everyones throwing around god this god that, just watch, at some point this is going to be the core issue and it will make it to the supreme court
.
A civil union doesn't give me the exact same legal safeguards as a "marriage" if it did, then I would have no problem. Terminology is not point, it's a simple fact that we simply want the same EXACT benefits as everyone else, whats wrong with that?
couldn't you go on a cruise and get married by the captain in international waters?...tobin

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
Again marriage is a priveledge and not a right
Ring, Ring, Ring,......Hello, this is Pamela Anderson, I'm not in right now, I'm off on what I think is my 4th or 5th honeymoon........

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
couldn't you go on a cruise and get married by the captain in international waters?...tobin
It's all about the legal rights of being a citizen of the US....Again, getting the same tax breaks as a married couple would be nice, but not available in a civil union, nor are the other legal options, like loss of support for wrongfull death ( I can't sue a drunk driver for loss of spouse or support if Scott were killed by a drunk driver)

 

[maxalmon]

I would like to thank all that are posting for keeping this civil and informative and both sides have legit concerns...

 

[jmick]

What is the basis of marriage? Love, trust, caring, compassion, security, a desire to start a family...these are things that all people eventually want and it doesn't matter if it's man and a woman or a man and man or a woman and a woman. If two people have these feelings they should be able to marry and have a civil ceremony. I don't see how somoneones sexual orientation comes into play but it does because there are a lot of people out there who are very threatened by this and think it will break down our core values, which I feel is garbage. As an american, if you pay taxes you should be allowed the same privledges as everyone else and marriage is one of those.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Pontius
That much, we agree on. if you are saying getting married under the Christian God. because the Bible clearly spells out that homosexuality is a sin. so if one believes the Bible is the word of God (not sure if Maxalmon has said he believes that or not), then obviously they would agree that God does not ordain a homosexual union. but like I've been trying to point out, the laws of man and the laws of God are 2 different things. and nowhere in the Bible does it say God gives man the authority to enforce the word of God on other men.
well, you know there was a time in America when blacks were seen as "less than human" and there was a time when many state governments attempted to sterilize minorities so they would not be able to procreate. should you have the right to procreate or have a relationship with anyone you choose? should you have to defend yourself for being the way you are? if not, then why would any other person need to explain why they should be allowed to marry and have children? are gays less human than you are?
This is not the same thing, 2 men or 2 women can not biologicallly procreate together. Forbidding minorities or groups from having children is either genocide or population control. Naturally, homosexuals are not able to have children so this issue that you bring up is not valid. This is not a humanity issue. And as I stated before you can have a relationship anyone you choose, if you have homosexual feelings or if that is who you are than you should practice abstanance (spelling?). As you shouldn't have --- before marriage...this is a sin that I have committed, and again sin is sin. Me doing what I did is no different than this, so I am not portraying myself as on some high-horse, but I do know right from wrong, and the order of how God wants us to live our lives. Do i follow that daily, no, but I try