Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
I would like to thank all that are posting for keeping this civil and informative and both sides have legit concerns...

And thanks for your explanations...You have given me much to consider now...that wasn't there before.

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
Um,,..wouldn't you be a little angry if people were going around bashing your friends, limiting your rights, telling you that you can't do this, can't do that all because of who you are.....
.
many years ago, my neighbor who was gay had gas poured on him and then sat on fire, how sad, all because he was gay, wonderful person who gave and gave only to have his life ended by someone who's religious views instructed him to kill for other reason than he was gay and had to die......So yes, a little angry that people don't accept me, you would too if the table was flipped....Anyone want me to post the pics of my face busted in, crushed right orbit, swollen brain with fluid buidup, busted lip, multiple laserations (sp) and a face that was almost totally blue. All because I was walking down the street with agroup of friends and we were attacked for no reason, coma for 3 days, almost had to have brain surgery to release preassure from fluid buildup, still have ongoing issues with spelling and math and memory problems.....Shall I go on and on and on about my friends that have had the same issue or shall you continue to tell me that you are better than me
Im sorry to hear about this and hope those responsible were brought to justice but dont recall anyone condoning the graphic and detailed violent mugging you described under any circumstances, or for any reason. And certainly do not recall anyone ever saying they were any better than you so lets get off the pity me agenda in this regard. Almost everyone including myself has been exposed to acts of violence. Many people have been victims of violence and it's not right to accept or tolerate it.
The events that happened to you were done by some phychotic lunatics who should be locked away. Just because someone does not accept the gay lifestyle does not mean they condone these acts. So to catagorize people who do not accept the gay lifestyle or imply that they are condescending or haters or homophobic is a misguided viewpoint on your behalf.
Of course Id be upset if my friends were attacked in this manner, who wouldnt be but what does this have to do with someone accepting the gay lifestlye? What your implying is that because someone does not accept your lifestyle they automatically condone acts of violence like the one mentioned as a soloution. This could not be farther from the truth.
Despicable acts of violence such as this occur to people everyday and for a multitude of reasons and they are always wrong.

 

[dskrezyna]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
couldn't you go on a cruise and get married by the captain in international waters?...tobin
*edit lets be nice* If he did get married in international waters, the entire event would be fruitless once he set foot back in the US.
They have every right to be upset that they don't have equal rights. The government has NO right to tell homosexuals where they fit in. I dont know whatever happened to seperation of church and state but the Bible should have NO merit when making US legislation. NONE! And don't site religious morals creating our laws hundreds of years ago because it doesn't fit in this day and age. In God We Trust should be taken off currency and the Pledge of Allegiance shouldn't be in public school. I don't get any sicker than when people say marriage is between a man and a woman ("because the bible says so") and won't deviate from that to create equality among everyone. How sad.
It took forever and a day for African-Americans to be considered equal in this country (they weren't banished from the Bible were they?) and I hope one day the gay population gets the same rights because they are entitled to marriage as well. As long as people who disagree with this because of the bible, their minds will never wrap around this. It just saddens and sickens me how belief in the Bible can make people SO hypocritical, cause its own bigotry, closed-mindedness and blindness to equality.

 

[rylan1]

Ok Max, I agree you and your partner should be able to be given state's rights, but there should be conditions to it. I do agree with you about marriage! To many people think it is a joke and they do it without any thought or foundation, and with the notion that they can just get out of it. Basically,they don't hold it sacred. Its a major problem and I agree these people shouldn't be getting married...We definetely have lost our moral views as a country. And I'll add that I do respect your relationship and I believe that you and your partner are in it for the long-haul and are committed to being together. This is comendable because it seem our society is against the institution of Marriage or any form of it. Marriage is something that should not be taken lightly and its sad that so many people do.

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by dskrezyna
That's real nice. Such class you have there.

If he did get married in international waters, the entire event would be fruitless once he set foot back in the US.
They have every right to be upset that they don't have equal rights. The government has NO right to tell homosexuals where they fit in. I dont know whatever happened to seperation of church and state but the Bible should have NO merit when making US legislation. NONE! And don't site religious morals creating our laws hundreds of years ago because it doesn't fit in this day and age. In God We Trust should be taken off currency and the Pledge of Allegiance shouldn't be in public school. I don't get any sicker than when people say marriage is between a man and a woman ("because the bible says so") and won't deviate from that to create equality among everyone. How sad.
It took forever and a day for African-Americans to be considered equal in this country (they weren't banished from the Bible were they?) and I hope one day the gay population gets the same rights because they are entitled to marriage as well. As long as people who disagree with this because of the bible, their minds will never wrap around this. It just saddens and sickens me how belief in the Bible can make people SO hypocritical, cause its own bigotry, closed-mindedness and blindness to equality.

just for the record if you read my other post you would see i have been supportig his issue since this thread started it was a suggestion *edit lets be nice ** ...tobin

 

[michaeltx]

I know where max is coming from on everything he is saying.
I have 2 couples that are my best friends in the world. 1 couple is 2 guys the other 2 girls that feel strongly about these issues. They did get married for the tax and medical reasons. Both couples have been together for about 20 years * I dont know of a lot of hetero couples that have been together that long* now because they wanted the same benifits as other couples here is the way they went around it.
Steve and John were together and their friends Patty and Sonya. Steve married Sonya because he had health insurance and Patty married John because patty had the insurance. This way both couples had atleast some of the benifits of being married even though they are not married to the people they are in love with and want to be with. because they are married the also get the benifits of marriage like tax breaks etc..
Does anyone see a problem with this. They also feel the same way as Max does that you can call it anything you want to it doesnt have to be called a MARRIAGE but atleast give all the benifits that are afforded to a married couple. So that if something happens to the life long partners They can take care of the problems financial and other other decisions that need to be made.
Right now if a man and woman are married or have lived together for a lenght of time and something should happen like the guy dies unexpectedly everything goes to the woman on the other hand if a gay couple lives together all their lives and something happens to one of them the other one can find themselves homeless and desolate because the state can take everything if there is no next of kin even though the couple spent a life time building there home and property. Is that right?
Its not are you against someone being gay or if your for it. Its a matter of to you beleive that no matter who the couple is should be afforded the rights and benefits that come along with a partnership which is essence is what a marriage is, a contract not only to profess their love for each other but also all the properties,debts, and all other aspects of their lives. call it something else but atleast give EQUAL rights for the partnership. IMO
Mike

 

[seasalt101]

she wasn't exactly nice and apperantly had not read any of my post on this thread real fair mods...tobin

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by dskrezyna
.
It took forever and a day for African-Americans to be considered equal in this country (they weren't banished from the Bible were they?) and I hope one day the gay population gets the same rights because they are entitled to marriage as well. As long as people who disagree with this because of the bible, their minds will never wrap around this. It just saddens and sickens me how belief in the Bible can make people SO hypocritical, cause its own bigotry, closed-mindedness and blindness to equality.

I am sorry but comparing gays and what happened to African Americans or Native Americans is simply no comparison, and are different issues. This is not a debate of equallity or humanity. Its a moral and political debate. And again marriage is a priveledge in this country in the terms in which gays are requesting they recieve certain benefits that are not afforded to everyone (those that are not married) If it were a right than give every tax paying citizen the same perks, right?

 

[michaeltx]

seasalt you have a PM

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
I know where max is coming from on everything he is saying.
I have 2 couples that are my best friends in the world. 1 couple is 2 guys the other 2 girls that feel strongly about these issues. They did get married for the tax and medical reasons. Both couples have been together for about 20 years * I dont know of a lot of hetero couples that have been together that long* now because they wanted the same benifits as other couples here is the way they went around it.
Steve and John were together and their friends Patty and Sonya. Steve married Sonya because he had health insurance and Patty married John because patty had the insurance. This way both couples had atleast some of the benifits of being married even though they are not married to the people they are in love with and want to be with. because they are married the also get the benifits of marriage like tax breaks etc..
Does anyone see a problem with this. They also feel the same way as Max does that you can call it anything you want to it doesnt have to be called a MARRIAGE but atleast give all the benifits that are afforded to a married couple. So that if something happens to the life long partners They can take care of the problems financial and other other decisions that need to be made.
Right now if a man and woman are married or have lived together for a lenght of time and something should happen like the guy dies unexpectedly everything goes to the woman on the other hand if a gay couple lives together all their lives and something happens to one of them the other one can find themselves homeless and desolate because the state can take everything if there is no next of kin even though the couple spent a life time building there home and property. Is that right?
Its not are you against someone being gay or if your for it. Its a matter of to you beleive that no matter who the couple is should be afforded the rights and benefits that come along with a partnership which is essence is what a marriage is, a contract not only to profess their love for each other but also all the properties,debts, and all other aspects of their lives. call it something else but atleast give EQUAL rights for the partnership. IMO
Mike
Mike, shouldnt it then be alright for a person to have multiple spouses or for people to marry each other within a bloodline? If they feel the same way , whats is the difference, they arent hurting anyone? or what about animals, many people see animals or pets as humans and that they should be given the same rights. Who are we to say this is wrong either? There are people who believe that they should be afforded the same rights and benefits of a partnership for these reasons as well.

 

[seasalt101]

back at you mike...tobin

 

[michaeltx]

I see what you are saying there has to be lines drawn but here is the question on that.
can people being married within the same bloodline cause problems?
beastiality is not even close to being on topic on this one.
and for mutiples is not really even on topic either beacuse we are talking about 2 people not multiple people.
but since you brought up pets I know people that have willed EVERYTHING they own to their pets with a custodian being appointed because they felt so strongly about their pets but I have never seen or heard of anyone wanting to marry thier dog or other animal!!
mike

 

[earlybird]

Kind of random but I heard a comedian say that he's sick of people saying that people aren't born gay. To which he replied "so you can be convinced to be gay." That'll shut them up. I'm going to steal that one.

 

[dskrezyna]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
I am sorry but comparing gays and what happened to African Americans or Native Americans is simply no comparison, and are different issues. This is not a debate of equallity or humanity. Its a moral and political debate. And again marriage is a priveledge in this country in the terms in which gays are requesting they recieve certain benefits that are not afforded to everyone (those that are not married) If it were a right than give every tax paying citizen the same perks, right?
I would agree African Americans/Native Americans had it much harder than what gays are going through now, without question, no doubt. But gays aren't EQUAL if they dont have the right to get married (regardless of what the bible gives the definition of marriage as). That has no place in deciding this.
Now are you saying that gays shouldn't get the right to be married because the bible says so, because they can't conceive their own child, or another reason? Sorry, I just found it:
Gay Marriage is wrong - key word being marriage. I believe that marriage is b/t a man and woman- set forth by God as a covenant relationship. I don't think that homosexuals should be allowed to go before a minister/bishop/pastor...etc to be married. I do believe that some sort of civil union is acceptable in our society.
If you believe that gays shouldnt be allowed to get married then you are stating that a gay couple is not equal to a heterosexual couple and doesn't deserve the same rights per the Bible/God.

 

[michaeltx]

LOl when I first met steve and John I had no idea about them. after I got to know them the told me. I was courious so I asked a lot of questions of them on eof them was why did you CHOOSE to be gay? the answer floored me
Originally Posted by steve
Why do you chose to be straight? and why would you chose to lead a life style that at every turn you have to worry about someone beating you for being guy or walking down the road and someone yelling and screaming things at you. why would you chose to live a lifestyle that your family could turn their back on you and disown you from their lives and have nothing to do with you. Why would you choose to lead a life where The church leaders are always telling you your going to hell and that your life is full of sin? We didnt chose the life that is who we are and always will be.
I couldnt respond that and still to this day I cant.
Mike

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
I see what you are saying there has to be lines drawn but here is the question on that.
can people being married within the same bloodline cause problems?
beastiality is not even close to being on topic on this one.
and for mutiples is not really even on topic either beacuse we are talking about 2 people not multiple people.
but since you brought up pets I know people that have willed EVERYTHING they own to their pets with a custodian being appointed because they felt so strongly about their pets but I have never seen or heard of anyone wanting to marry thier dog or other animal!!
mike
Whats the difference when the reason to marry is for the legal benifits or somones ideology of love.
If someone could receive the benefits of marriage for marrying their pet goldfish or dog then whats the difference? Some people love thier pets more than their spouses, many treat them better. Beastiality implies --- is involved, if it's not involved, it's not beastiality, so why shouldnt they be allowed to marry for the benifits.
Bloodline... If one is sterile and cannot procreate, then would it be ok? there would be no chance of birth defects so they should be allowed to marry. Or what if there is no intention of reproducing? This was legal for many years and was common place within royal bloodlines.
Why shouldnt they be allowed to marry multiple partners and recieve a benefit for each marriage if they feel the same way for each person whats wrong with it?
This issue opens the doors for any number of alternatives, who is to say either one is wrong. To accept gay marriage and not other alternatives would be hypocritical. The majority of the world believes that marriage is the union between a man and a woman, whether its correct or not it is what is generally accepted by most people.

 

[michaeltx]

but see that where it gets shady because everyones wants to pull in beastiality and the mutiple partners and direct blood line and I dont see where these groups of people even though I completely disagree with are asking to have benifits of being a loveing couple with the benifits afforded to a man and woman.
Mike

 

[jovial]

Years ago gay marriage wasnt an issue either, but it still occured.
But to exclude these people would be unaccepting of their lifestyle. They would call you a "hater" or a "homophobe" or say that your not being fair.
To exclude the minority groups previously mentioned from marrying would be the same thing. If you say you do not accept or believe they should have the same right would be the same as me saying I do not belive in or accept gay marriage? So where should the line be drawn? IMO the law should be based on what the majority of people belive, whether its right or wrong. Whats legal and whats moral are often seperate issues.

 

[reefraff]

Funny how all the leftists are all the time screaming about seperation of church and state yet they wish to directly involve the government in a religous tradition, marriage

My own opinion is to allow civil unions. That allows gays the same rights and protections as everyone else without redefining marriage. I don't think we need to be expanding the definition of what normal behavior is. And yes, I understand that for gay people their behavior is normal. Somewhere around 7% of the population is gay, call it 10% for the sake of argument. Cool, being different is OK, it's what made this country great. We embrassed different cultures and traditions and made them our own.
There is nothing wrong with being different. Who here hasn't dropped 5 or 6 bucks a pound for a rock. you call that "normal"?

 

[jennythebugg]

It also used to be generally accepted for people to hang people they thought were witches , this practice is gone now because our government and society deemed it wrong .all homosexuals are asking for is the right to be treated like any other american . tell me is mixed race marriage also wrong
in your eyes? what does gay marriage have to do with people marrying animals?? are you comparing homosexuals to animals?
Originally Posted by Jovial
Whats the difference when the reason to marry is for the legal benifits or somones ideology of love.
If someone could receive the benefits of marriage for marrying their pet goldfish or dog then whats the difference? Some people love thier pets more than their spouses, many treat them better. Beastiality implies --- is involved, if it's not involved, it's not beastiality, so why shouldnt they be allowed to marry for the benifits.
Bloodline... If one is sterile and cannot procreate, then would it be ok? there would be no chance of birth defects so they should be allowed to marry. Or what if there is no intention of reproducing? This was legal for many years and was common place within royal bloodlines.
Why shouldnt they be allowed to marry multiple partners and recieve a benefit for each marriage if they feel the same way for each person whats wrong with it?
This issue opens the doors for any number of alternatives, who is to say either one is wrong. To accept gay marriage and not other alternatives would be hypocritical. The majority of the world believes that marriage is the union between a man and a woman, whether its correct or not it is what is generally accepted by most people.