Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
SHOW ME ONE PASSEGE IN THE BIBLE WERE IT SAYS IS OK TO BE GAY?? and i'll re-read the bible. Did God let Zacchias collect taxes after he was rescued??
I didn't say the Bible says it's ok to be gay. now show me one passage in the Bible where it says God ordains man to FORCE other men to you can't follow his word in order to get to heaven. God gave free will to man to go to heaven or hell. so explain how it's YOUR place tell others how they should or shouldn't live their personal lives.
"6And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
doesn't say whether or not he continued to be a tax collector (though one of Jesus' disciples was a tax collector too). but it DOES say that he was a child of God. Jesus also caught a lot of flack for allowing women into his sermon, healing the sick, feeding the poor, etc etc. sounds like you could learn a lesson from Jesus.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by Pontius
I didn't say the Bible says it's ok to be gay. now show me one passage in the Bible where it says God ordains man to FORCE other men to you can't follow his word in order to get to heaven. God gave free will to man to go to heaven or hell. so explain how it's YOUR place tell others how they should or shouldn't live their personal lives.
Like i said i'm Not a dedicated Christian, but i won't go far..have you heard about the Ten comandments? that should be enuf guideline..
and yes you have the Free will, But it is my job to guide you on the right path.."you take it or leave it" GOD will take care of you in the Afterlife, if you followed his word.. If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe that there's Heaven or Hell so who cares how you live your life as long as your happy right?

 

[aztec reef]

keep going i'm not done!! i have to take off for a minute , but i'll be back!!

 

[reefreak29]

I didn't say the Bible says it's ok to be gay. now show me one passage in the Bible where it says God ordains man to FORCE other men to you can't follow his word in order to get to heaven. God gave free will to man to go to heaven or hell. so explain how it's YOUR place tell others how they should or shouldn't live their personal lives.
gn 6:22
gn 40:8
ex5:3
jos 2:8-13
2kings 7:3-10
2chr30:11
est2:10
jon 3:4-9
mt4:18-20
.....mt28 :18-20
.....john 4:35
if u need more let me know

 

[mike22cha]

Did Jesus hang out with the Righteous leaders like the pharises? No he hanged out with prostitutes, tax collecters, dieased people who were thought to be cursed becuase of their sin, etc. How can you make friends by saying that the person is going to hell? Is that going to start a friendship, which later may open an oppurtunity where you could share your faith?
A neighbor of mine doesn't like Christianity because some Baptist kids (nothing wrong with Baptists, most of my friends are) came up and told them they were going to hell. What doors does that open up? God is the judge, not us. If we judge, we're hypocritical, because we all sinned and none of us deserve to go to heaven, but by the grace of God.
This is off topic but I had to chip in.

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
Did Jesus hang out with the Righteous leaders like the pharises? No he hanged out with prostitutes, tax collecters, dieased people who were thought to be cursed becuase of their sin, etc. How can you make friends by saying that the person is going to hell? Is that going to start a friendship, which later may open an oppurtunity where you could share your faith?
A neighbor of mine doesn't like Christianity because some Baptist kids (nothing wrong with Baptists, most of my friends are) came up and told them they were going to hell. What doors does that open up? God is the judge, not us. If we judge, we're hypocritical, because we all sinned and none of us deserve to go to heaven, but by the grace of God.
This is off topic but I had to chip in.
your absolutly correct

 

[sharkboy13]

from what ive heard being homosexual is natural when populations become to large, i think this was proved when a colony of rats grew out of control then declined when some specimens became homosexual

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy13
from what ive heard being homosexual is natural when populations become to large, i think this was proved when a colony of rats grew out of control then declined when some specimens became homosexual
i think that proves that rats will screw anything

 

[michaeltx]

OK guys lets get back on topic alitle bit.
Mike
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Are these really subjects a presidential candidate or congressional member should have to run under. I hear lots of talk about the erosion of values and the need to legislature laws to keep values intact. I may tend to vote republican but I feel these are two issues that should NEVER be legislatured. It is government intervention in my eyes. Since when should a government have to legislature moral values to it's citizens.
We as a society have lost our sense of morals I believe, but not at the behest of the government but at our own behest. If you wish to see certqain moral values instilled back into society, government is not the place or entity to do it. It starts and ends with how you raise your children and what values you instill in them.
I, for one, am tired of these side issues that seem to capture so much attention in politics and keep our eyes off the other issues that end up biting us, as citizens, in the rear repeatedly.
Just my thoughts

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by Pontius
the majority doesn't always rule in terms of legislation, that's false. their have been many many unpopular laws passed over the years. the main principle that this country was founded on was a citizen's right to live however they see fit so long as they are not harming others. a gay couple having marriage rights may OFFEND you, but it doesn't harm you in any way. if you don't accept it, fine. but if you speak out against it, you are really saying you don't believe in the principles that America was founded on.
If the vote isnt in the majority then how does it get passed? I mean doesnt it take more yes votes to pass a law? If not then why vote on something at any level. Unpopular with the citizens perhaps but still passed through a majority within the legislative process i.e tax laws.
Does it harm me that some folks are gay, not really, I simply dont care, just dont ask me to accept it. Is is harmful to mankind as a species? maybe in terms of natural reproduction yes.
Was America founded on acceptance or tolerance? I thought we were founded on toleraning each others differences in religion, race, political beliefs, sexual orientation etc..., the majority determines how well something is accepted. Take the Yugo for example, we tolerated it but didnt accept it.

As Americans we dont necessarily need to accept each others viewpoints either but we should tolerate them in order to co-exist. Within reason I suppose, I have a difficult time tolerating nitrates but unfortunately must accept it if Im to continue this hobby.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
So your saying legal vrs illegal wont stop certain practices so they are ok, but then we should shun or consider anyone homosexual as an OUTCAST regardless of the LAW??!!
Should we just gather "them" up and put "them" on an Island like leppers?
You are absolutley entitled to your beliefs and practices. I even embrace you for such strong conviction, BUT do you ignore or turn away people based on their sexual orientation alone? Will you not shake thier hand? or if you do..do you then "have a problem"??
I know it is pehaps strongly worded but not an attack. This is a shocker for someone to have such an attitude towards Gays. You always have such amunition you bring to the table and this just doesnt fit. I must be reading too deep into it.
OK, here's where i stand... I think making gay marriage illegal or Legal...It's Not going to make a difference, people are still going to practice homosexuality. Just like people will still abort forever, and like drug dealers are going to keep dealing drugs wether legal or illegal. Just like growing pot is legal (for medical pourposes in some states)yet there's those illegal growers..It will not change the comsuption and demand, if they were to make Legal for everybody to grow pot what would happend ??? it would just make it easier for Criminals to grow and distribute and it would cause alot of problems in society..
The fact that a Gay couple wants to get married is Too much ADVERTISEMENT for me...I was being a little sarcastic when i said that i would keep a "10 feet distance"..I would gladly shake a Gay's hand, give a Gay a hug, and even share a can soda with a Gay..But just don't Advertise your practices around me, I will treat them with respect as human beings..and will offer friendship, just like i'm friends with a couple of gangbangers, and the ONLY difference is that i don't practice their activities..We have all kinds of people in this world and that's fine, that's what makes the "world go around"..
The jehova's witnesses nocking on your door : that's too much Advertisement..
Here's where the DIFFERENCE comes in: Jesus did help prostitutes, thiefs and a bunch of sinners but he did it with a pourpose, and that was for them to change their ways..If Homosexuals are willing to change their ways then i have No problem living and surrunding my self with them.
I don't HATE homosexuals i just Can't get my brain to settle on their practices, you have the right to do whatever you want with your life. But being married and practicing homosexuality openly in society is like thugs Advertising crime..
Is like alot of people hate RAP music due to violence and drugs, adultery ect,. that some of them ADVERTISE but there's those people that Love it...and see it as rhyme and poetry and real life .and yet they don't embrace their actitudes ...And others say: "RAP IS CRAP".
No, i don't think we should gather them up and take them to an island,
Although i think they should keep their dirty laundry within their home..Should we also gather prostitutes and thugs and take them to an island.?
p.s.
like i said before NO i don't think those two factors (gay marriage and Abortion ) should play a big role in candidates..

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
OK, here's where i stand... I think making gay marriage illegal or Legal...It's Not going to make a difference, people are still going to pratice homosexuality. Just like drug dealers are going to keep dealing drugs wether legal or illegal. Just like growing pot is legal (for medical pourposes in some states)yet there's those illegal growers..It will not change the comsuption and demand, if they were to make Legal for everybody to grow pot what would happend ??? it would just make it easier for Criminals to grow and distribute and it would cause alot of problems in society..
Ok...let's just say drugs became legal. You can walk into any conveniance store and purchase a pack of marijuana cigarettes, just like a pack of Marlboro...maybe you can buy a small bag of heroin donuts, from Hostess. You seriously believe that if that were the case, there'd still be people dealing, on the corners? Come on...be sensible.
Of course gay people are going to continue to practice their beliefs, whether we legalize gay marriage or not. Aren't they doing it now? What's gonna stop them if we don't legalize it...and if we do, wouldn't they still continue to practice their way of life? You're not making very much sense, IMO.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The fact that a Gay couple wants to get married is Too much ADVERTISEMENT for me...I'm was being i little sarcastic when i said that i would keep a "10 feet distance"..I would gladly shake a Gay's hand, give a Gay a hug, and even share a can soda with a Gay...
Your unflattering way of throwing around the word "gay" is unacceptable and unsettling, IMO. To me, with the way you're using it, it's no different than using the N word, talking about African Americans. I am not homosexual but have friends that are and my roommate, of 5 years, was gay. Please, watch carefully the way you throw around slang. What's the difference in using the N word, calling someone a wop, etc. as opposed to calling someone "a gay", a "homo", or a "queer"?
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The jehova's witnesses nocking on your door : that's too much Advertisement..
Politely tell them you're not interested, close your door and go on your way. Same way with homosexuality. You don't like it...fair enough...don't be gay...problem solved.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
I don't HATE homosexuals i just Can't get my brain to settle on their practices, you have the right to do whatever you want with your life. But being married and practicing homosexuality openly in society is like thugs Advertising crime..
That's odd, because I didn't know admitting you were gay was the same as running around, committing grand theft auto, assault and battery, armed robbery, etc.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Although i think they should keep their dirty laundry within their home..
Do your wife/girlfriend openly hold hands, in public? How about a quick kiss? Do you put your arm around her, as you walk thru the mall?
I'm sure alot of people would rather you not air your own dirty laundry, in public and keep it at home.

 

[reefforbrains]

This is not a witch hunt against any single individual for thier own way of thinking. Each of use are entitled to our own thoughts and the original question is about each of our perception to the relevance to the issues when choosing a canidate.
This thread obviously pushed the envelope for a saltwater fish board's contect but seems the longer the thread gets, the more passions come from the woodwork about the individual signifigance of these seemingly trivial issues.
JMO

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
Ok...let's just say drugs became legal. You can walk into any conveniance store and purchase a pack of marijuana cigarettes, just like a pack of Marlboro...maybe you can buy a small bag of heroin donuts, from Hostess. You seriously believe that if that were the case, there'd still be people dealing, on the corners? Come on...be sensible.
Of course gay people are going to continue to practice their beliefs, whether we legalize gay marriage or not. Aren't they doing it now? What's gonna stop them if we don't legalize it...and if we do, wouldn't they still continue to practice their way of life? You're not making very much sense, IMO.
Your unflattering way of throwing around the word "gay" is unacceptable and unsettling, IMO. To me, with the way you're using it, it's no different than using the N word, talking about African Americans. I am not homosexual but have friends that are and my roommate, of 5 years, was gay. Please, watch carefully the way you throw around slang. What's the difference in using the N word, calling someone a wop, etc. as opposed to calling someone "a gay", a "homo", or a "queer"?
Politely tell them you're not interested, close your door and go on your way. Same way with homosexuality. You don't like it...fair enough...don't be gay...problem solved.
That's odd, because I didn't know admitting you were gay was the same as running around, committing grand theft auto, assault and battery, armed robbery, etc.
Do your wife/girlfriend openly hold hands, in public? How about a quick kiss? Do you put your arm around her, as you walk thru the mall?
I'm sure alot of people would rather you not air your own dirty laundry, in public and keep it at home.

1, why would people go to get dope to the corners when they can get it at the convinience store, which is SAFER??.
2. i know they're gonna still practice wether legal or illegal that's why Legalizing gay marriage = ADVERTISEMENT
3. i didn't mean any disrespect but what should i call them? No ofense!! If you have a problem with the word gay then i don't know what to tell you..
4. i do shut my door and tell them i'm a christian, but why should i have to deal with them at my door step??
5. I know that being gay is Not as bad as commiting assault, but is not as good as going to church either, is it?
6. and 7...Yes, we do hold hands from time to time, and guess what? we get nasty looks cause i'm Mexican and wife is American, but guess what we could give a rat's A

what other people think..Is my relationship with a white girl as BAD as a gay relationship??.. you be the judge.. there's ONLY two answers to that..and different people will pick one of the two..wait wouldn't that make me an ADVERTISER too?? Not ALL of people think is such a nice picture ha..
8. oh, there's is No # 8.

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by Jovial
in a democracy dosent the majority rule in terms of legislation? If its legal then the law must have been accepted by a majority in order to be passed....
But simply because the majority accepted or rather passed the law doesn't make it right, change takes time and changes will come. History is a classic prediction of the future, wasn't that long ago people were afraid to come out of the closet, now it's so common that it's more accepted than ever. As it becomes more acceptable over a period of time and as people ease up on the pathetic sterotypes that are absolutley false, society will respond in a more positive and respectfull manor, again history will repeat itself as it has with all social issues. My partner worked with some mormons and they became good friends, a few years ago, Dave shook Scott's hand and said that before he met Scott, he kinda despised gay people, but Scott showed him that we are no different, just good, honest, caring people........For the member who earlier told me that I was going to #ell, how odd that you have never met me, know nothing about me, yet you sit on your mountain preaching that your so good and honest yet everything that comes out of your mouth is hate. I for one, would never say anything so demeaning to someone who I have never met..........Religious domination thru history has killed more people than any one single event in the history of our planet. Seems like we always have one religious group trying to shove their ideals down our throat and if we don't accept, then we have to be elimanted, why are we at war right now, because of a religion and it will never end.........Again history repeats

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
As I have stated I believe these are issues the government should butt out of. I just disagree with the medical and black market argument as this opens the door for other things as well. Heroin should be legal then this way you don't have to worry about making bad heroin and killing people. Meth should then also be legal because people that make it are harming themselves by breathing toxic chemicals into their bodies and making homes unsafe to live in just to sell it on the "black market" to their consumer. How are these things different from the black market that would be created for abortion and make it unsafe?
I agree with the black market idea, people are going to get abortions regardless of if its legal or not. If they do it illegallly there would be more deaths associated with unproper medical conditions/facilities and unsterile environments. Simply, there would be many young women dying. This arguement is apples and pineapples when it comes to comparison, simply there is none. The drugs you mention are absoultely unsafe and they make people zombies basically and cause life-long addictions that leads to death and broken families. People who perform abortions are not hurting themselves neither are they hurting the patient if it is done correctly. I believe in the right of choice, however I believe it is moraly wrong. Drugs are not just a medical issue having to do with dirty needles and toxic fumes... its also about what people do and how they behave when they are on drugs, and when the come down from their high.... its a much different issue.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
aztec I agree with most of this but have you ever been around a woman that has been rapped without getting pregnant from that horrid action? The reason I say this is that I have and it takes a tremendous mental toll on them that I can only imagine and have seen the outward mentality and effects of it. When it results in a pregnancy its even worse. I have had 3 friends of mine rapped by people all of which are in Jail for their crime.*thank goodness* 1 girl decided that she was going to do what you suggested because she became pregnant and carried the baby to term. It was so hard on her because of the horrific way she became pregnant that 2 days after the baby was born she commited suicide because she couldnt deal with it anymore. My main problem with politics deciding that abortion is illegal all the way around is that circumstances like this come up and I personally do not want a woman reliving the ---- everyday for the next 9 months its hard enough to get pasted that with out the pregnancy.
JMHO
Mike

I agree with this statement, but I don't neccessarily agree with aztec on this issue.

 

[maxalmon]

Marijuana has been legal in Alaska since 1975, now you would think that we would be hearing about a flood of MJ related problems and social isues along with the denegration of society... apparently NOT.....Anyone ever hear about this little place called Amsterdam?

 

[rylan1]

I should have gotten in on this sooner. My opinion is as follows.
Gay Marriage is wrong - key word being marriage. I believe that marriage is b/t a man and woman- set forth by God as a covenant relationship. I don't think that homosexuals should be allowed to go before a minister/bishop/pastor...etc to be married. I do believe that some sort of civil union is acceptable in our society. I believe that homosexuality is sinful in nature, however I am not sure if some people are predesposed to it at birth (probably so) and for others it is absolutely a choice. I have had gay friends/associates/coworkers and I don't have a problem with them as people. We all fall short of the glory of God, and we are all sinners. Sin is equal in the eyes of God, and people who are homosexual can go to heaven IMO. I don't believe they should openly serve as leaders in a church, but I have no problem with them attending. I also hold the same opinion for pastors who cheat or steal, or whatever... they should not serve as leaders until they get right with God, but again everyone sins. I don't want to offend anyone by my comments because I can certainly understand how a gay person can feel attacked and feel like this is who they are and was meant to be. But I do feel it is a perversion that is not from God. But I believe if you are christian than you need to treat people regardless if they are gay or not with the same respect and loving nature as we do anyone else.

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by maxalmon
But simply because the majority accepted or rather passed the law doesn't make it right, change takes time and changes will come. History is a classic prediction of the future, wasn't that long ago people were afraid to come out of the closet, now it's so common that it's more accepted than ever. As it becomes more acceptable over a period of time and as people ease up on the pathetic sterotypes that are absolutley false, society will respond in a more positive and respectfull manor, again history will repeat itself as it has with all social issues. My partner worked with some mormons and they became good friends, a few years ago, Dave shook Scott's hand and said that before he met Scott, he kinda despised gay people, but Scott showed him that we are no different, just good, honest, caring people........For the member who earlier told me that I was going to #ell, how odd that you have never met me, know nothing about me, yet you sit on your mountain preaching that your so good and honest yet everything that comes out of your mouth is hate. I for one, would never say anything so demeaning to someone who I have never met..........Religious domination thru history has killed more people than any one single event in the history of our planet. Seems like we always have one religious group trying to shove their ideals down our throat and if we don't accept, then we have to be elimanted, why are we at war right now, because of a religion and it will never end.........Again history repeats
Hate is comes in many forms and is the popular word to use today if you disagree with someone because it's a convienent way to lable them. There seems to be a great deal "hate" and of intolerance from the gays towards people who do not accept their lifestyle.
Whats legal and what is moral are often completely different. Killing babies through abortion is also legal, but by no means moral.