Government and latest about wire taps.
- Thread starter darth tang
- Start date
mimzy
Active Member
these are all scare tactics used by the government to take away our liberties and cover up their gross negligance.
Three seperate offices knew about threats of attack on 9/11, but b/c of beaurocracy, poor planning and utter INCOMPETANCE, the disaster wasn't avoided. Who are they kidding when they say that wire-tapping our phone-lines will save lives? If THEY had their acts together, this whole thing would have turned out quite differently.
So they throw together some show about tapping our phones so we're busy arguing about civil liberties instead of paying attention to the REAL ISSUE.
The GOVERNMENT FAILED US.
Three seperate offices knew about threats of attack on 9/11, but b/c of beaurocracy, poor planning and utter INCOMPETANCE, the disaster wasn't avoided. Who are they kidding when they say that wire-tapping our phone-lines will save lives? If THEY had their acts together, this whole thing would have turned out quite differently.
So they throw together some show about tapping our phones so we're busy arguing about civil liberties instead of paying attention to the REAL ISSUE.
The GOVERNMENT FAILED US.
aw2
Active Member
That is true, Mimzy...the government did fail us.
But, all the intel and info they had, about 9/11, said it wasnt going to happen for months.
Even if we wouldve had things in order, like the FBI sharing info with the CIA, and vise versa...like it shouldve been done, the likelyhood of them stopping 9/11, all together, was very unlikely.
It was bound to happen sometime...just a little sooner than we thought.
But, all the intel and info they had, about 9/11, said it wasnt going to happen for months.
Even if we wouldve had things in order, like the FBI sharing info with the CIA, and vise versa...like it shouldve been done, the likelyhood of them stopping 9/11, all together, was very unlikely.
It was bound to happen sometime...just a little sooner than we thought.
1journeyman
Active Member
I have no problem with the government listening to a phone call I received from Afghanistan... that's what we are talking about here. Americans talking to foreign terror suspects...
Why the heck wouldn't the government listen? What if our govenrment would have listened in on a phone call made from Japan to the US regarding the impending attack on Pearl Harbor? What if we overheard the plans for the Battle of the Bulge coming out of Germany? Would we sit around here and question whether the government should listen in?
We are at war... it's well past time that we started acting like it.
I do find it curious that the New York Times never had a front page story on this when pres. clinton did it...
The Feds need to find who leaked this story and hang them from the White House Christmas tree.
Why the heck wouldn't the government listen? What if our govenrment would have listened in on a phone call made from Japan to the US regarding the impending attack on Pearl Harbor? What if we overheard the plans for the Battle of the Bulge coming out of Germany? Would we sit around here and question whether the government should listen in?
We are at war... it's well past time that we started acting like it.
I do find it curious that the New York Times never had a front page story on this when pres. clinton did it...
The Feds need to find who leaked this story and hang them from the White House Christmas tree.
darth tang
Active Member
I only have two points on the subject.
Thew first. These are international calls coming in the U.S. from other countries. These people are suspected or known to have terrorist ties that place these calls into our country. They are also NOT U.S. citizens and therefore do NOT receive the benefits befitted us as citizens.
Secondly, people need to take a good look at things. I mean real GOOD! As a society we have a large number of freedoms many do not. That is good. My earlier comment about death was in regard to this. I had many snide and sarcastic responses such as, "I don't feel dead." in response. On 9/11 we lost over 3000 lives in this country. Not military personnel, but the average Joe because someone wanted to cause death and destruction. If this happens again....are their lives worth the cost of a small freedom we enjoy? Three days ago many of you didn't even think about this because you didn't klnow, it didn't bother you then. Now that you know 36 wire taps were placed on INCOMING INTERNATIONAL phone calls you are freaking out. Why? What changed in your life that this had such a drastic effect on it? If you are doing nothing wrong, what do you have to worry about? I never understood why people freak out when someone says the government is listening, if they aren't breaking laws.
Many complain about the lives lost in Iraq, yet these guys are atleast dying for something. The people on 9/11 died for nothing. That is sad. If allowing the government to tap occassionally to help stop terrorist attacks and prevent a senseless loss of life with no purpose in our country again. I believe we owe atleast THAT much to the lost 3000. But, we don't learn sometimes.
You know, this same type of thing was reported during Clinton's Administration and no one said boo or uttered an outrage. I wonder why? Look up Clinton and Eschelon.....if you doubt my sincerity.
Thew first. These are international calls coming in the U.S. from other countries. These people are suspected or known to have terrorist ties that place these calls into our country. They are also NOT U.S. citizens and therefore do NOT receive the benefits befitted us as citizens.
Secondly, people need to take a good look at things. I mean real GOOD! As a society we have a large number of freedoms many do not. That is good. My earlier comment about death was in regard to this. I had many snide and sarcastic responses such as, "I don't feel dead." in response. On 9/11 we lost over 3000 lives in this country. Not military personnel, but the average Joe because someone wanted to cause death and destruction. If this happens again....are their lives worth the cost of a small freedom we enjoy? Three days ago many of you didn't even think about this because you didn't klnow, it didn't bother you then. Now that you know 36 wire taps were placed on INCOMING INTERNATIONAL phone calls you are freaking out. Why? What changed in your life that this had such a drastic effect on it? If you are doing nothing wrong, what do you have to worry about? I never understood why people freak out when someone says the government is listening, if they aren't breaking laws.
Many complain about the lives lost in Iraq, yet these guys are atleast dying for something. The people on 9/11 died for nothing. That is sad. If allowing the government to tap occassionally to help stop terrorist attacks and prevent a senseless loss of life with no purpose in our country again. I believe we owe atleast THAT much to the lost 3000. But, we don't learn sometimes.
You know, this same type of thing was reported during Clinton's Administration and no one said boo or uttered an outrage. I wonder why? Look up Clinton and Eschelon.....if you doubt my sincerity.
darth tang
Active Member
So, you excuse the behavior because he was sneakier and the reporters didn't investigate him as hard as say Bush?
I notice you blame the attack of 9/11 on the government. Would that be the current administration only?
Funny that the 9/11 comittee found no one at fault and there wasn't a any evidence before hand that would have helped stop it.
I notice you blame the attack of 9/11 on the government. Would that be the current administration only?
Funny that the 9/11 comittee found no one at fault and there wasn't a any evidence before hand that would have helped stop it.
darth tang
Active Member
While on the subject, please list the civil liberties violations against yourself since the inception of the patriot act.
mimzy
Active Member
Clinton is not excused. Not by a long shot. But there are ways to prosecute such action - what he did was illegal. What this administration is doing is legitimizing something that is ilegal and trying to convince us that it's good for us.
As for what they've done to me; it's not personal. it's principle.
Besides, how many terrorists have they intercepted, and how many disasters have they avoided since they started pushing their noses into things?
I am perfectly happy to do for my country. But if my government is going to turn around and take advantage of me, I'm going to make some noise.
There are plenty of LEGAL ways for them to get the information that they need to protect us, if they could only get their act together.
Why do the PEOPLE'S rights always have to suffer when the government goofs up?
As for what they've done to me; it's not personal. it's principle.
Besides, how many terrorists have they intercepted, and how many disasters have they avoided since they started pushing their noses into things?
I am perfectly happy to do for my country. But if my government is going to turn around and take advantage of me, I'm going to make some noise.
There are plenty of LEGAL ways for them to get the information that they need to protect us, if they could only get their act together.
Why do the PEOPLE'S rights always have to suffer when the government goofs up?
darth tang
Active Member
Again, the wire taps were on incoming international calls. The people are not U.S. citizens, therefore do not receive the same rights as you or I. Correct?
dogstar
Active Member
The problem is that the ppl. dont know this. We only have the Gov's word. How an anyone know.
Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the former N.S.A. director who is now the second-ranking intelligence official in the country, was asked at a White House briefing this week whether there had been any "purely domestic" intercepts under the program.
"The authorization given to N.S.A. by the president requires that one end of these communications has to be outside the United States," General Hayden answered. "I can assure you, by the physics of the intercept, by how we actually conduct our activities, that one end of these communications are always outside the United States."
So proove it. The only check is the FISA court and they did not use it. How can anyone know if they dont follow the laws. He used the word " President requires " well so does the law as well as a warrant.
Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the former N.S.A. director who is now the second-ranking intelligence official in the country, was asked at a White House briefing this week whether there had been any "purely domestic" intercepts under the program.
"The authorization given to N.S.A. by the president requires that one end of these communications has to be outside the United States," General Hayden answered. "I can assure you, by the physics of the intercept, by how we actually conduct our activities, that one end of these communications are always outside the United States."
So proove it. The only check is the FISA court and they did not use it. How can anyone know if they dont follow the laws. He used the word " President requires " well so does the law as well as a warrant.
darth tang
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
what about the people recieving the calls?
Good point. But when a warrant is issued for one person to be tapped....do then have to have another warrant for the other end of the conversation? No. Take this for instance. a mobster is tapped by the government to0 catch them doing something ilegal. The mobster calls friends, family, associates, contacts and so forth. So did the government need to get a warrant to for everyone else? No, because THEIR phone is not tapped, the mobster's is. Now, if they wish to use information from the other end of the conversation for prosecution purposes, then they have to receive a warrant afterwards. Sometimes they can and sometimes they can't.
So again, what laws were broken?
This is turning into a debate about having courts and procedures.....Yet the previous president got off for obviously violating court etiquette and procedure. Why should this President be prosecuted when no actual law was broken?
what about the people recieving the calls?
Good point. But when a warrant is issued for one person to be tapped....do then have to have another warrant for the other end of the conversation? No. Take this for instance. a mobster is tapped by the government to0 catch them doing something ilegal. The mobster calls friends, family, associates, contacts and so forth. So did the government need to get a warrant to for everyone else? No, because THEIR phone is not tapped, the mobster's is. Now, if they wish to use information from the other end of the conversation for prosecution purposes, then they have to receive a warrant afterwards. Sometimes they can and sometimes they can't.
So again, what laws were broken?
This is turning into a debate about having courts and procedures.....Yet the previous president got off for obviously violating court etiquette and procedure. Why should this President be prosecuted when no actual law was broken?
puffer24/7
Active Member
yes thank god someone said that i was going to but u beat me to it clinton lied underoath
puffer24/7
Active Member
there is a big diference it can t always be one sided i cant believe u guys dont like bush what is wrong with you he is our president for cryin out loud be a little patriotic people and back up the current president i did not like clinton but i still backed him up and supprted what he did whether it be right or wrong because i am a true patriot
dogstar
Active Member
I think the debate is not whether they wire tap or not. The law allows wire taps as long as its done legally. The problem is that they did not follow the law. = illegal.
What laws has been broken ? you ask. They have already admitted to this and claim national security issues as always as their reason.
The law is Artical Four of the Bill Of Rights and its amendment in '78 with the establishment of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which oversees government applications for secret surveillance or searches of foreigners and U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism or espionage.
What laws has been broken ? you ask. They have already admitted to this and claim national security issues as always as their reason.
The law is Artical Four of the Bill Of Rights and its amendment in '78 with the establishment of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which oversees government applications for secret surveillance or searches of foreigners and U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism or espionage.
mimzy
Active Member
Puffer, Bush is our president, and we should be respectful of his title.
The fact that he is President, however, by no means renders him immune to scrutiny.
And as for being patriotic - The President is not the country. Some of the most patriotic figures I know of went AGIANST their governments to save their country and their people.
Thank you Dogstar, you always manage to say things so clearly and factually and to the point. You are the voice of reason
(I love you too, Darth
)
The fact that he is President, however, by no means renders him immune to scrutiny.
And as for being patriotic - The President is not the country. Some of the most patriotic figures I know of went AGIANST their governments to save their country and their people.
Thank you Dogstar, you always manage to say things so clearly and factually and to the point. You are the voice of reason
(I love you too, Darth
puffer24/7
Active Member
get out of here u ...EDITED... we should always back our president up no matter what
Please refrain from name calling
Please refrain from name calling