Healthcare bill will pass the senate.

sickboy

sickboy

Active Member

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3193429
Intolerence isnt the question here its weather this government is following the Law of the Land or not as provided in the Constitution.The answer is no.
Now to weather God Almighty had any say in the formation of the USA I would point you to books for you to read about the history of the formation of my country and GODs part in doing so through the founding fathers.-Im here to stand up for my country agaist those who would try and destroy it ,and i guess you would be one.Its these little things that build up over time and cause a fracture in the foundation.You are part of the problem so you should leave while you still can.
There is a storm brewing .
..i.,
I think I figured out who you really are....are you Timothy McVeigh?
 
louti

louti

Member
Originally Posted by DragonZim
http:///forum/post/3193574
Its not in the constitution but I believe it was Jefferson who coined the term and it was his influence that basically called for the State to stay out of religion and for religion to stay out of the State.
Yes, and Jefferson was so opposed to religion that he allowed church services to be held at the White House and attended these services. As was stated above, what he meant was that no church should control the government and that all religions should have equal rights. For example, a Muslim student should have just as much right to hold a religious study at his school as a Baptist student would, not that neither should be allowed. It just bothers me that this is taken out of context so much and people are made to believe that this is actually in the Constitution.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3193817
I too wonder why that is so bad??
"When in the course of....."
Because it's "old news".
If Jefferson were alive today, he'd be taking kickbacks and hanging out with his sugar mamas. How many slaves did he own again?
Franklin would've died an early age because he would've mishandled plutonium while trying to create a nuclear reactor in his backyard.
Samuel Adams would be an alcoholic after trying to drink every beer made at his distillery.
The Founding Fathers weren't politicians, they were orators. They could talk a good talk, but if they were in politics today, they'd be eaten alive and wouldn't last a week in Congress.
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3193951
The Founding Fathers weren't politicians, they were orators. They could talk a good talk, but if they were in politics today, they'd be eaten alive and wouldn't last a week in Congress.
We dont need anymore politicians we need more men and women like the Founding Fathers
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3193951
Because it's "old news".
If Jefferson were alive today,
I think he might have run out of ammunition executing all the traitors to this nation.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
~Thomas Jefferson
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
In 1776 owning slaves was a pretty mainstream practice. The Americans aren't the one's who invented the idea, and as a country we engaged in the practice for a lot shorter period of time than the European elitists we got the idea from so it's pretty damn stupid to take shots at historical figures who engaged in the practice as a way to prove we are a bad country.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3194070
In 1776 owning slaves was a pretty mainstream practice. The Americans aren't the one's who invented the idea, and as a country we engaged in the practice for a lot shorter period of time than the European elitists we got the idea from so it's pretty damn stupid to take shots at historical figures who engaged in the practice as a way to prove we are a bad country.
Give me a break. You, Veni, and oscar put these guys on some pedestal, when in fact they were probably just as corrupt as any politician today during their time. You think they all just got together and happily hashed out the contents of the Declaration and the Bill Of Rights in a couple of days? There were probably more backdoor deals back then than there are today. Unfortunately, the only thing we get to see are all this 'historical comments' they apparently made during their debates. Like I said, they knew how to 'talk the talk'.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3194080
Give me a break. You, Veni, and oscar put these guys on some pedestal, when in fact they were probably just as corrupt as any politician today during their time. You think they all just got together and happily hashed out the contents of the Declaration and the Bill Of Rights in a couple of days? There were probably more backdoor deals back then than there are today. Unfortunately, the only thing we get to see are all this 'historical comments' they apparently made during their debates. Like I said, they knew how to 'talk the talk'.
And yet they put together the foundations for the most successful country in history for the short period of time we have been in existence. Pretty good for some guys who just knew how to talk
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Oh, and I don't place anyone of pedestals. The founders had their faults like anyone else. Jefferson had affairs (typical democrat
) and such. I only mention them because they came up with this grand idea and set the rules in place. Maybe its just coincidence but the more politicians have figured out ways to ignore those rules the worse shape our country finds itself in.
One big difference between the founders and the current crop of politicians is motive. Those guys took on a task they knew could likely lead to their deaths and even if successful would be a long hard struggle. In short there is little doubt that they got into the game for the right reasons. I am sure there were some who took advantage of their positions once in power but quite simply there weren't the opportunities for corruption back then there are now so who's to say how they would act.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3194092
Oh, and I don't place anyone of pedestals. The founders had their faults like anyone else. Jefferson had affairs (typical democrat
) and such. I only mention them because they came up with this grand idea and set the rules in place. Maybe its just coincidence but the more politicians have figured out ways to ignore those rules the worse shape our country finds itself in.
You will have to convince me that the country is in worse shape than it was at the time of the Founding Fathers: they had such a vast difference in standard of living that there were slaves, if your house caught fire you had to negotiate with the fire department to get the fire put out, the unregulated merchant class was in the process of looting the vast natural resources of our country (including the non-wealthy), health care was a joke and our army was a pathetic joke. The right to vote was a closely held privilege that few shared in, and surprise - taxes were too high. It seems to me that we have come a long way, so tell me in what way our country is in worse shape than it was at the time of our founding.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3194102
You will have to convince me that the country is in worse shape than it was at the time of the Founding Fathers: they had such a vast difference in standard of living that there were slaves, if your house caught fire you had to negotiate with the fire department to get the fire put out, the unregulated merchant class was in the process of looting the vast natural resources of our country (including the non-wealthy), health care was a joke and our army was a pathetic joke. The right to vote was a closely held privilege that few shared in, and surprise - taxes were too high. It seems to me that we have come a long way, so tell me in what way our country is in worse shape than it was at the time of our founding.
And when did our downturn really begin? We were advancing up until the early 1900's. Even coming out of the depression we moved forward but starting in the 50's things began to slide in my opinion and you can attribute that to the explosion in the size of government and the increase in power the feds have seized.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3194102
You will have to convince me that the country is in worse shape than it was at the time of the Founding Fathers: they had such a vast difference in standard of living that there were slaves, if your house caught fire you had to negotiate with the fire department to get the fire put out, the unregulated merchant class was in the process of looting the vast natural resources of our country (including the non-wealthy), health care was a joke and our army was a pathetic joke. The right to vote was a closely held privilege that few shared in, and surprise - taxes were too high. It seems to me that we have come a long way, so tell me in what way our country is in worse shape than it was at the time of our founding.
I dunno, our army did beat the brits twice... And the Brits were the biggest and best during that time... Sure we had help from the French. But we won...
I'm not sure how you'd have someone (during the 1700's-and 1800's) build a nation from the ground up, without using the nation's natural resources?
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3194114
And when did our downturn really begin? We were advancing up until the early 1900's. Even coming out of the depression we moved forward but starting in the 50's things began to slide in my opinion and you can attribute that to the explosion in the size of government and the increase in power the feds have seized.
Reef: You really don't believe that, or you would have given me one of your usual information-filled filled responses and made a good argument for your opinion (this is not an ironic statement, fwiw). What "slid", and how was the slide related to the growth of federal programs? There were lots of other changes occurring during that time, so be careful. One could argue that if a slide began in the early 20th century it was due to a variety of things, so be careful with cause and effect.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3194120
Reef: You really don't believe that, or you would have given me one of your usual information-filled filled responses and made a good argument for your opinion (this is not an ironic statement, fwiw). What "slid", and how was the slide related to the growth of federal programs? There were lots of other changes occurring during that time, so be careful. One could argue that if a slide began in the early 20th century it was due to a variety of things, so be careful with cause and effect.
I think you need to define what slid. IMO you're talking standard of living. There is no doubt in my mind we have a better standard of living. Via healthcare, Air conditioning (I live in south texas), and a multitude of other technological advances that have made our lives better, (like trucks).
However I would think in his mind he's talking about freedom. We just had the definition of a free man wrong.
 
stevedave08

stevedave08

Member

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3194060
We dont need anymore politicians we need more men and women like the Founding Fathers
I think he might have run out of ammunition executing all the traitors to this nation.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
~Thomas Jefferson
You know who else ran out of ammunition on a regular basis while executing anyone who he considered a traitor (really just anyone who disagreed with his views was a traitor, even women)? Do you kow who? Fidel Castro.
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3194140
You know who else ran out of ammunition on a regular basis while executing anyone who he considered a traitor (really just anyone who disagreed with his views was a traitor, even women)? Do you kow who? Fidel Castro.
So did Hitler,Mao,Stalin,.......and many others ,hardly a comparable inference as a matter of fact it was a piss poor attempt at comparing.
 
stevedave08

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3194145
So did Hitler,Mao,Stalin,.......and many others ,hardly a comparable inference as a matter of fact it was a piss poor attempt at comparing.
Apparently, you're piss poor at getting the point there. You are actually supporting my original argument. Nutcases kill people who they consider "traitors" just because they don't agree with them. That goes against the constitution, that you so strictly abide by. pffft.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3194135
I think you need to define what slid. IMO you're talking standard of living. There is no doubt in my mind we have a better standard of living. Via healthcare, Air conditioning (I live in south texas), and a multitude of other technological advances that have made our lives better, (like trucks).
However I would think in his mind he's talking about freedom. We just had the definition of a free man wrong.
What makes you believe that slaves in the 17th century were free? There has certainly been an increase in individual and societal freedom in the past 250 years, or so.
Many of those increases in standard of living that we all enjoy come from government action - healthcare for example. Absent the NIH and all of the fundamental and applied research supported by or done there, we would still be treating cancer, for example, with mustard poultices.
 
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