Obama supporters. I have one question

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515260
And I'm still waiting for a government program that is more efficient than it was in the private sector...
Medicare vs Private Insurance
Medicare:
*Covers the sickest, oldest patients. A large percentage of our health care costs are spent on the last few weeks of life. Medicare is the primary insurance for this group.
*Has deductibles, has premiums, has limitations.
*Has no CEO, no CM (they do have few auditors).
*Pays their bills as long as the provider follows the rules, that are written in stone.
Private insurance companies:
*Covers the healthiest portion of our population.
*Have CEOs who make enormous salaries.
*Have CMs who get large bonuses for denying care to patients.
*Have administration costs for each one.
*Providers must have staff that is able to prove to the CMs that pts need care, every day, adding more to the cost of care.
*Coverage is limited to a certain length of time.
Provider payments are very similar.
If only it was solvent

the problem is that market controls caused the problem, more market controls aren't the solution.
Because in a way an insurance company and the way it operates is similar to the way the government operates when you plug it into an economic model. It sets a fixed price. It takes money from everyone and redistributes it to the user of the service and most don't use as much as they pay in. So in a way, you have seen a small case study in a single payer system.
 

suzy

Member
You're kidding? I am talking about the names all democrats have been called in this thread.....
I really don't care. I actually see it as a sign of weakness in ones argument myself!
So, if Medicare goes bankrupt, will I still get paid? Me and the gang were thinking our jobs were pretty secure! Will the private sector adopt all the baby boomers when Medicare closes shop?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515461
You're kidding? I am talking about the names all democrats have been called in this thread.....
I really don't care. I actually see it as a sign of weakness in ones argument myself!
So, if Medicare goes bankrupt, will I still get paid? Me and the gang were thinking our jobs were pretty secure! Will the private sector adopt all the baby boomers when Medicare closes shop?
Sure if they pay for it. You know how if you pay for food you eat. Or if you pay for a car you drive. I wonder how they like their national healthcare in China, England, Canada, Cuba?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2515469
Sure if they pay for it. You know how if you pay for food you eat. Or if you pay for a car you drive. I wonder how they like their national healthcare in China, England, Canada, Cuba?
Exactly...
Why stop at Universal Health Care? Why not Universal Housing, Universal Food Distribution, Universal Education, etc.
Heck, let's just bring back the Soviet Empire and merge with them. Let's give Communism another roll of the dice. Maybe it will work this time.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515513
Well, there goes that discussion. It was interesting, I'll admit!
Because in a way an insurance company and the way it operates is similar to the way the government operates when you plug it into an economic model. It sets a fixed price. It takes money from everyone and redistributes it to the user of the service and most don't use as much as they pay in. So in a way, you have seen a small case study in a single payer system.
Think about this statement, and go read some Thomas Friedman (he is pretty liberal as far as his conclusions) But his thought process is quite interesting.
 

suzy

Member
Well, I think we should just not do anything and when the Baby Boomers get old enough to start consuming at a devastating rate, we can just file bankruptcy! It is the American way, right?
Seriously, it is changing as we speak. The debate that we have is really a waste of time. Those that think we don't already have Universal Health Care are fooling themselves. We are just doing UHC the hard way. It will change on it's own, no matter how we try to prevent it. It's a huge business, with thousands of lobbyists. I'm just glad we have caring practitioners on the inside.
 

mfp1016

Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515123
I submit that a 71 year old with a history of melanoma has around a 10 x's greater chance to pass on than a 44 year old man.
I would think the people who are voting for him now, would want to know if his melanoma is metastasized to his lungs or his brain. If his nodes are clean, and he is cancer free, why should it be a secret?
I'll fully concede that my comment was merely conjecture. I was just pointing out that Obama's health isn't brought up nearly often enough.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515641
Well, I think we should just not do anything and when the Baby Boomers get old enough to start consuming at a devastating rate, we can just file bankruptcy! It is the American way, right?
Seriously, it is changing as we speak. The debate that we have is really a waste of time. Those that think we don't already have Universal Health Care are fooling themselves. We are just doing UHC the hard way. It will change on it's own, no matter how we try to prevent it. It's a huge business, with thousands of lobbyists. I'm just glad we have caring practitioners on the inside.
I'll ask this for the third time; Why do we not expect the baby boomers to pay for their health care?
 

reefraff

Active Member
Estimated yearly cost of medicare fraud is in the billions. Really good system there. That is the problem with huge centrally controlled programs, they are easy to scam.
My wife spent years working for a law firm that did defense work, much of it in the medical fiel and she now works for a company that coordinates defense litigation for hospitals.
She has seen the crap from both sides. Until the Democrats allow for tort reflore or the Republicans develop enough of a spin to force them into it healthcare costs are not going down. Practicing CYA medicine adds to the costs. Having to defend frivilous lawsuits add to the costs. Resulting increase in malpractice insurance premiums add to the costs.
All creating nationalized healthcare does is increases the size of the deep pockets the plantiffs bar has to reach into.
Even assuming socialized healthcare is the way to go doing so without first correcting the out of control costs would be among the most foolish moves our country has even made.
 

suzy

Member
I'll ask this for the third time; Why do we not expect the baby boomers to pay for their health care
I thought they are paying?
Are you saying they should all be private pay ?
No insurance at all?
So, when an elder comes in for end of life care, after the hospital takes all the assets from the surviving spouse, the hospital can just write off the remainder? How is that better? So we get a lot MORE uninsured people. Our premiums are high now, imagine how high they will be if billions of dollars of debt are passed on to all the paying people!
That would be better because we get to pay Altius instead of the gubermint!
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2515763
Estimated yearly cost of medicare fraud is in the billions.
Link, please?
Originally Posted by reefraff

http:///forum/post/2515763
Until the Democrats allow for tort reflore or the Republicans develop enough of a spin to force them into it healthcare costs are not going down.
I partially agree. But, I think we need to find a way to get rid of bad doctors, too. I know MDs I wouldn't let cut my toenails, yet they keep going and going with complication and terrible outcome rates. After years, a hospital will take away their priviledges and they move to a new hospital.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515428
OK, let me rephrase it: Medicare has much lower operating costs than private pay companies, IME.

I ask what you ask. Give a link or proof.
Fraud is rampant, on both sides. My paperwork has increased 10x due to fraud on the provider side. On the other hand, I've lost count how many times I've seen a patient in the ED on disability, who hurt themselves, working out or playing sports. How the heck can you be disabled from work, be on gov't assistance, yet be able to play softball or lift weights?
"Approximately 40 million in the USA are uninsured "
Has anyone looked at that number? How many are illegals? How many do not want to buy insurance ( young healthy folks who would bet they will not be ill in a given time period, or have health care savings accounts instead of traditional insurance.
 

suzy

Member
That is why I added the IME.
How could I find a link? They are so different. One covers old, end of life pts, the other covers healthier younger pts. One has lower costs per pt, one has extremely high costs per pt. Both get relatively the same reimbursements. One has huge salaries for staff, the other has gubermint employees. JM blows off a $124,000,000 salary, but I think that is out of line. I saw on another thread where someone was upset because Michelle Obama makes $200,000 a year.
As far as fraud, on our side, I know what we do to prove we are an upstanding, honest company. (We had a run in with the FBI almost 10 years ago! Men in Black came to our MedRec dept and scared the crap outta everybody! HCA clains it was a documention deal, so our Docs got quite a few more forms that year! Plus, all the J-KO crap).
I'll bet a lot are illegals. I know my list today will have a couple. I even have a 70 year old today that didn't want to pay for Medicare, so the rest of us get to pay his private pay bill. Sweet, huh? Along with all the 20 yo you mention. That is what bugs me. Mostly, they are OK, but we get traumas that end up costing us all a few hundred grand each. Unless they are TBI, then we get to pay for them forever!
But, we would be paying for them once their private insurance ran out, so I guess that doesn't count in this example...
 

suzy

Member
I just thought of a biggie cost saver: Illegal aliens (uninsured) coming here to have their babies born on US soil. Some are not seeking prenatal care. How many of those newborns end up in NICU? Those are huge bills we all pay.
 

1journeyman

Active Member

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515856
I'll ask this for the third time; Why do we not expect the baby boomers to pay for their health care

I thought they are paying?
Are you saying they should all be private pay ?
No insurance at all?
So, when an elder comes in for end of life care, after the hospital takes all the assets from the surviving spouse, the hospital can just write off the remainder? How is that better? So we get a lot MORE uninsured people. Our premiums are high now, imagine how high they will be if billions of dollars of debt are passed on to all the paying people!
That would be better because we get to pay Altius instead of the gubermint!

Suzy, what do you think Universal Health Care is? It is each of us paying for everyone else, through a government run uber-MediCare system.
My parents are baby boomers. My mom worked for 10 years just to provide my parents both with health insurance while my dad worked to build up their retirement. Part of their budgeting for retirement was to make sure they would have health coverage. Just as they budgeted or food, shelter, electricity, etc.
Again, why is this not an individual's responsibility? No one is forcing someone to retire without aquiring the means to provide for themselves.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515864
Link, please?
I partially agree. But, I think we need to find a way to get rid of bad doctors, too. I know MDs I wouldn't let cut my toenails, yet they keep going and going with complication and terrible outcome rates. After years, a hospital will take away their priviledges and they move to a new hospital.

http://www.ncpa.org/health/pdh5.html
One estimate states that fraud and abuse cost Medicare and Medicaid about $33 billion each year.
http://www.aarp.org/money/wise_consu...careFraud.html
"The vast majority of physicians and other health care providers are honest and legitimate, but a few aren't. Those people steal billions of dollars from the health care system each year. Even more dollars are lost to errors in billing that are never found."
Not knowing the first link's source I included the second from AARP who isn't likely to be seen as trying to inflate the amount of fraud to argue against having medicare.

There are some ddocs that need to become 7-11 clerks but you wouldn't believe the stuff I've seen. Lawyers understand in a lot of minor cases it is easier to pay them to go away than to go to court and prove the case has no basis. We're talking 50 60 grand a pop here easy.
My wife worked on a case where some people's baby was born with a health defect. The doctors decided the baby wasn't strong enough to survive the flight to a major medical facility and instead put it on an incubator to try to allow it to gain a little strength. Ultimatly the baby was taken to that facility but didn't survive. The people sued for a bundle and last I heard the legal bill was over 300 thousand dollars. I've seen some pretty stupid jury awards but I really doubt these people have a hope in hell of winning. Ultimate legal bill will certainly be over half a million at least. We all get to cover that.
EDIT here is a better link http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/summary...6&accno=A37738
in 2004 the GOA estimated that fraud for just durable medical equipment was 900 million dollars alone.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Here's where I come from on this. My wife and I decided we could afford to raise our son (actually her son I adopted after we were married) so we didn't have any more kids until we could afford it. Unfortunatly a funny thing happend to me at work one day and I ended up disabled. Now that we could afford more kids I am not in the position to help with the care of an infant and I can't lay everything on the wife or afford (or desire) to hire a nanny so that ship has sailed.
I already pay the taxes to provide schools, parks, libraries etc. for people that have 3 or 4 kids and PAY LESS IN TAXES THAN I DO specifically because they have more kids. Don't get me wrong, I really don't mind (too much) but you gotta draw the line somewhere. Let these people get a second job to support their kids. I don't recall ever holding a gun to someone's head and making them have kids.
As far a illegal immigrants I say make the hospitals report anyone without identification to immigration. I don't particularly care if that means they wont seek out healthcare. They shouldn't be here in the first place. All we are doing is allowing the Mexican government export their poverty problem to the US. As many flaws as our government has it can't hold a candle to what goes on south of the border.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515424

Where did you hear Medicare was going bankrupt? We can't let it, any more than we can let the Army go bankrupt.

According to the GAO, by 2040, we will only be able to pay interest only payments on the national debt.
Now, you want to spend 100billion more/year?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2515424
...
Why do you think private insurance companies are providing care cheaper?
Where did you hear Medicare was going bankrupt? We can't let it, any more than we can let the Army go bankrupt.
Private companies are providing policies cheaper because of competition in a free market. That's the very soul of capitalism.
Medicare Will Go Broke By 2018, Trustees Report
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050101448.html
 
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