Obama supporters. I have one question

stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534567
External factors due have direct influences on your choices.... Whats clear to me is that many of you find it difficult to see the other side... I am no way saying that being a drug dealer should go unpunished... but you have to consider why people do what they do... Factors such as education, absent fathers- who went down as a result of this, no viable jobs, substandard housing... etc. I'm not making an excuse... but what you fail to see is the cycle that keeps these things going...If what you see around you is bad... and the only thing you see are drug dealers who have everything you think is good... money, women, nice cars, respect, etc... than a teen or young man who has nothing at home... no prosepects of college, no positive male figure in the home... it is very tempting. ..
I've been discriminated against... I mentioned earlier it happened blantanly twice this weekend.. 1st time I chalked it up... 2nd time I was upset and wanted to do something about it...
But blaming an absent dad, avalibility of the drug, or whatever is an excuse, because no matter how valid the excuse is, (and I'm not saying there aren't) the game of life will not care. The consequense of drug use (ignoring socially applied punishment) is still going to be wreck your body, ruin family units and whatever else. It doesn't care why you shot up, or took a hit. And by repeating and arguing for these excuses enables the poor crackhead or pusher who uses it as justification for his action. I see your point of view, and it is plain wrong.
It goes back to what you believe in or don't believe in. That is one of the reasons I find Wright's bigotry (as well as democrats) as so absolutely revolting, if you as a black ten year old hear how the deck is stacked against you, how this is "the united states of White america" or some garbage like that, in my mind would only make the word that much more insurmountable.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2534500
Rylan, who are the juries that sentence these minority criminals to longer sentences?
Juries all across America... I bet I can find 100 different sources supporting this view... and you will have difficulty finding any supporting yours.. The facts are:
Minorities...in particular african americans are:
Pulled over at higher rates
Detainted at higher rates
Convicted at higher rates
Given longer sentences for same crimes
Given community service at lower rates
incarecerated at higher rates
So why is this important? Because it gives you a point of view of why Wright can preach a sermon, like the one he did.. Why the prison population is the way it is, one of the reasons why there are more fatherless black households
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2534587

THATS MY WHOLE POINT. Lock them all up. Crack is worse than cocaine, yes? That doesn't make a cocaine dealer a good guy. The whole idea behind the stiffer sentences for crack was because it was thought (and here was where the govt. got it right for a change) crack would plague low income areas so they made the penalties stiff. That doesn't mean they made them too stiff. Just means they need to increase the penalties for coke dealing to the same level.
How is crack made...
....................
with coke..
They really didn't start targeting crack dealers til it was spilling over onto to the White House lawn...
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2534615
But blaming an absent dad, avalibility of the drug, or whatever is an excuse, because no matter how valid the excuse is, (and I'm not saying there aren't) the game of life will not care. The consequense of drug use (ignoring socially applied punishment) is still going to be wreck your body, ruin family units and whatever else. It doesn't care why you shot up, or took a hit. And by repeating and arguing for these excuses enables the poor crackhead or pusher who uses it as justification for his action. I see your point of view, and it is plain wrong.
It goes back to what you believe in or don't believe in. That is one of the reasons I find Wright's bigotry (as well as democrats) as so absolutely revolting, if you as a black ten year old hear how the deck is stacked against you, how this is "the united states of White america" or some garbage like that, in my mind would only make the word that much more insurmountable.
No I am not saying the actions are justified... but you have to understand what makes people vulnerable and understand human behavior... I am not wrong...
If you listen to Wright... .he is saying telling the congregation to put their trust in God.. who will never fail. We live in a country... that despite how great it is... it is not God.. and will fail as it has in the past.
As I look at your comment you are giving too much credit to the 10 year old... We both know that a person that age are not capable of making life decisions...that in most cases...w/o the correct parental influence they are likely to make the wrong decision... or the one that is more attractive to them...w/o looking at potential long term consequences..
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2534512
Prisons should be run cheaper, I agree. Take away the workout rooms, feed them bologna sandwiches and water, no access to visitors, television, etc. Make them work manual labor jobs, etc. I could run the prison system much cheaper... Prison should be a brutal place that no one ever wants to go to, much less go back to.

No sympathy for law breakers. If prison was repugnant and too scary to contemplate, more of those thinking about going down that road would think twice. What is more scary is our criminal justice system and the mechanisms used by criminals, and criminal lawyers to skirt around justice.
While some drug crimes, users, should have some sympathy, especially under-age or first time users (not dealers), as far as I am concerned perpetual users and dealers, you can throw away the key. Give them access to all the drugs they want while in jail so they can just blow themselves away and I, and other tax payers don't have to pay for their room and board any more.
It blows my mind that you have single moms struggling to put their kids through college while criminals get freebie degrees just because they are criminals in jail. Its revolting.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534627
Juries all across America... I bet I can find 100 different sources supporting this view... and you will have difficulty finding any supporting yours.. The facts are:
Minorities...in particular African Americans are:
Pulled over at higher rates
Detained at higher rates
Convicted at higher rates
Given longer sentences for same crimes
Given community service at lower rates
incarcerated at higher rates
So why is this important? Because it gives you a point of view of why Wright can preach a sermon, like the one he did.. Why the prison population is the way it is, one of the reasons why there are more fatherless black households

I'd actually like to see real facts on this, and not from biased, partisan sources. And compare those stats to the overall crimes committed in relationship to the population.
So, if blacks are pulled over more, is that in every city in American, or in some particular cities? Where? And if they are pulled over, is it because they speed more often then whites in that city? There are a lot of variables, and I doubt there are any real valid stats on this subject.
For instance, in the city I live in robberies are higher than the national average and blacks are the ones mostly arrested for robberies. Is that because more blacks commit this crime in the city I live, or is it because only blacks are arrested and LE does a blind eye to white robbers??
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2534663

No sympathy for law breakers. If prison was repugnant and too scary to contemplate, more of those thinking about going down that road would think twice. What is more scary is our criminal justice system and the mechanisms used by criminals, and criminal lawyers to skirt around justice.
While some drug crimes, users, should have some sympathy, especially under-age or first time users (not dealers), as far as I am concerned perpetual users and dealers, you can throw away the key. Give them access to all the drugs they want while in jail so they can just blow themselves away and I, and other tax payers don't have to pay for their room and board any more.
It blows my mind that you have single moms struggling to put their kids through college while criminals get freebie degrees just because they are criminals in jail. Its revolting.
I think you would have a different opinion if you kid commited a crime... Our criminal justice system in many ways is a lifetime punishment... I agree that drug dealers and criminals should be jailed... My argument is that it is done dipaportionatley.. that adversely affects minorities.. Many of these programs you mention are gone... The porblem I have is that you send someone to jail and they are worse off than they began... They are just sitting there... They have no or little marketable skills and no one wants to hire them. As I mentioned its a cycle that encourages more crime... There are many whom make it.. but most don't. If we addressed the problem in a new way... we would have better results and the costs would be less. It would have a better impact on society.. then simply throwing away the key... Life is valuable..
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534644
No I am not saying the actions are justified... but you have to understand what makes people vulnerable and understand human behavior... I am not wrong...
If you listen to Wright... .he is saying telling the congregation to put their trust in God.. who will never fail. We live in a country... that despite how great it is... it is not God.. and will fail as it has in the past.
As I look at your comment you are giving too much credit to the 10 year old... We both know that a person that age are not capable of making life decisions...that in most cases...w/o the correct parental influence they are likely to make the wrong decision... or the one that is more attractive to them...w/o looking at potential long term consequences..
And that is why what he is saying is so wrong, do you expect a 10 year old to be able to grasp the whole concept instead of getting stuck on the you're screwed part of the sermon. If that is what he is saying.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Ryan, you shouldn't make assumptions. I have a son who did get in to trouble in his youth. I was with him every step of the way, but didn't make excuses or try to blame society. It took years, not a few days, to turn things around, but it did happen. He is a law abiding citizen and productive member of his community now. Could I have done some finger pointing at this and that and the other? Sure I could! The bottom line is that families have to solve their own problems, not assign blame or expect society to fix their wrongs. I am a single mom who raised my son by myself. I think I have some understanding of hardship. I am also white Hispanic, a minority group.
While some drug crimes, users, should have some sympathy, especially under-age or first time users
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534635
How is crack made...
....................
with coke..
They really didn't start targeting crack dealers til it was spilling over onto to the White House lawn...

Yeah and crack is a poor man's method of free basing. It's more pure than powder so its a cheaper high. It also makes it more dangerous.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534371
There are a few things to look at.... 80% of inmates are drug offenders with as many as 80% of those inmates being african american... Reports show that the majority of drug users (66%) however are caucasian... ........

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534548
I think you are missing what I wrote... The 80% are for drug crimes... Drug Users only do like 6mos-1year in jail... I am refering to people who are drug sellers, look outs, runners, etc... I believe that is what these #'s are based on....The 80% are in jail for drug crimes... this is clear jounrney... If you want we can look up the sentencing stats for equal crimes, they will be clear.
Rylan, as I don't have the link in front of me where you got these numbers I can only go by what you typed. (please post link). This is why, btw, statistics can be so dangerous. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out, as you currently have them written, they are totally irrelevant to one another.
Here is what you said, broken down:
80% of inmates are drug offenders- A murderer could have been caught with drugs, have a previous conviction for drugs, etc. That murderer would still fit into this category, as written, however.
with as many as 80% of those inmates being african american- "with as many as" could mean anywhere from 1% up to 80%. When I see something like that written using something as specific as math I get very leery of the agenda of the author.
Reports show that the majority of drug users (66%) however are caucasian- What reports? Where was study done, Scandanavia? What type of drugs? Legal? Prescription? Alcohol?... Waaay too vague to be of any use.
Not trying to pick on ya Rylan, you may be absolutely correct. You just can't accurately arrive at your conclusion based on those numbers you posted.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534627
Juries all across America... I bet I can find 100 different sources supporting this view... and you will have difficulty finding any supporting yours.. The facts are:
Minorities...in particular african americans are:
Pulled over at higher rates
Detainted at higher rates
Convicted at higher rates
Given longer sentences for same crimes
Given community service at lower rates
incarecerated at higher rates
So why is this important? Because it gives you a point of view of why Wright can preach a sermon, like the one he did.. Why the prison population is the way it is, one of the reasons why there are more fatherless black households
Are these juries of their peers who are handing down these penalties?
Again, careful with raw statistics...
Pulled over at higher rates- Where? higher crime rated areas?
Detainted at higher rates- Again, where? Why? ID issues? Gang involvment, etc.?
Convicted at higher rates- Are they innocent?
Given longer sentences for same crimes- Was it a jury of their peers who sentenced them?
Given community service at lower rates- Why? By whom? Are the criminals more transient? Do they have jobs to be tied too? Are the crimes the same? (obviously you can't give violent crime offenders CS, so if one ethnic group is convicted more often of violent crimes then it stands to reason they will get lower CS)
incarecerated at higher rates- Again, are they innocent?
Show me a reliable study showing any particular minority group is being falsely convicted of crimes they did not convict. If you can't, then the legal system is not the issue.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534686
I think you would have a different opinion if you kid commited a crime... Our criminal justice system in many ways is a lifetime punishment... I agree that drug dealers and criminals should be jailed... My argument is that it is done dipaportionatley.. that adversely affects minorities.. Many of these programs you mention are gone... The porblem I have is that you send someone to jail and they are worse off than they began... They are just sitting there... They have no or little marketable skills and no one wants to hire them. As I mentioned its a cycle that encourages more crime... There are many whom make it.. but most don't. If we addressed the problem in a new way... we would have better results and the costs would be less. It would have a better impact on society.. then simply throwing away the key... Life is valuable..
rylan, repeatedly saying something does not make it true. Again, show me a study where minorities are routinely being falsely convicted. Then you might have a point.
A million illegals come into this country every year and find jobs. I have a hard time believing an ex-con can't. Granted, it probably won't be as a school teacher or a bank teller, but still, the jobs are out there.
Life is absolutely valuable. That said, individual's are each responsible for what they do with their own life....
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
This just keeps getting better. Today Obama said this
Barack Obama defends former pastor Jeremiah Wright as furor continues
March 26, 2008Recommend (5)
FROM ASSOCIATED PRESS
GREENSBORO, N.C. — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Wednesday sought to quell concerns over anti-American remarks by his former pastor, saying people are paying too much attention to a small number of ‘‘stupid’’ comments.
‘‘This is somebody that was preaching three sermons at least a week for 30 years and it got boiled down ... into a half-minute sound clip and just played it over and over and over again, partly because it spoke to some of the racial divisions we have in this country,’’ Obama told an audience in this central North Carolina city.
And this was also uncovered today
(CNSNews.com) - Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., pastor emeritus of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago where Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has been a member for two decades, slurred Italians in a piece published in the most recent issue of Trumpet Newsmagazine.
"(Jesus') enemies had their opinion about Him," Wright wrote in a eulogy of the late scholar Asa Hilliard in the November/December 2007 issue. "The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans."
Wright continued, "From the circumstances surrounding Jesus' birth (in a barn in a township that was under the Apartheid Roman government that said his daddy had to be in), up to and including the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on a cross, a Roman cross, public lynching Italian style. ...
"He refused to be defined by others and Dr. Asa Hilliard also refused to be defined by others. The government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the Klan, white supremacy is clearly in charge, but Asa, like Jesus, refused to be defined by an oppressive government because Asa got his identity from an Omnipotent God."
So now the Government controls the Klan and White Supremists too
 
flanders1024

flanders1024

Member
I don't know why you're arguing over this...McCain is nothing more than a feel good candidate. I've read the quotes youve posted and the story of him being a POW and the onnly thing that got him through the day was saying the pledge of allegiance.
Ridiculous. He's saying those things to make americans go..."awww...he really does care" and then get into office and

[hr]
it up because he's republican.
I'm not saying all republicans are bad...but look at the state this country is in since our esteemed president has been around. We are in one of hte biggest holes that we wont see a recovery for...nor will our kids. It will take a VERY long time to recover from all of this. From refusing to talk with Iran to playing the fear card, president bush has literally exiled america from the rest of the world.
Back to the subject...
Obama seems the most realistic candidate...the most true-natured, but in the same sense we can't trust anyone running for president. It's all smoke and mirrors. Whether they do a good job just depends on the situations they are given.
 
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