Obama supporters. I have one question

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Flanders1024
http:///forum/post/2537348
.... From refusing to talk with Iran to playing the fear card, president bush has literally exiled america from the rest of the world. ....
Talking to Iran and other dictators only serves to strengthen their seat of power. Seriously, Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for the obliteration of one of our allies (not a military defeat, btw, but an extermination of the Israeli people), and denies the holocaust occured. So, exactly, how do you sit down and talk with the clown? President Clinton "talked" to North Korea. The now have nuclear weapons....
Fear card? Right. 9-11 didn't occur. Saddam never used chemical and biological weapons on men, women and children. Al Qaeda and other radical islamic groups (including Hamas and Hezbollah, both groups Saddam supported) haven't declared war on the USA. Iran is not backing Iraqi insurgents, etc. The following list (not complete, btw) are not all foiled terrorist attacks on our soil since 9-11:
• December 2001, Richard Reid: British citizen attempted to ignite shoe bomb on flight from

[hr]
to Miami.
• May 2002, Jose Padilla: American citizen accused of seeking "dirty bomb," convicted of conspiracy.
• September 2002, Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.
• May 2003, Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with trying to topple the Brooklyn Bridge.
• June 2003, Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy.
• August 2004, Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers (see additional images).
• August 2004, James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention.
• June 2005, Father and son Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat: Son convicted of attending terrorist training camp in Pakistan; father convicted of customs violation.
• December 2005, Michael Reynolds: Plotted to blow up refinery in Wyoming, convicted of providing material support to terrorists.
• February 2006, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Zand Wassim Mazloum: Accused of providing material support to terrorists, making bombs for use in Iraq.
• April 2006, Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee: Cased and videotaped the Capitol and World Bank for a terrorist organization.
• June 2006, Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine: Accused of plotting to blow up the Sears Tower.
• July 2006, Assem Hammoud: Accused of plotting to hit New York City train tunnels.
• August 2006, Liquid Explosives Plot: Thwarted plot to explode ten airliners over the United States.
• May 2007, Fort Dix Plot: Six men accused of plotting to attack Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey.
• June 2007, JFK Plot: Four men accused of plotting to blow up fuel arteries underneath JFK Airport in New York.
• March 2007, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335500,00.html

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Flanders1024
http:///forum/post/2537348
I don't know why you're arguing over this...McCain is nothing more than a feel good candidate. I've read the quotes youve posted and the story of him being a POW and the onnly thing that got him through the day was saying the pledge of allegiance.
Ridiculous. He's saying those things to make americans go..."awww...he really does care" and then get into office and

[hr]
it up because he's republican.
I'm not saying all republicans are bad...but look at the state this country is in since our esteemed president has been around. We are in one of hte biggest holes that we wont see a recovery for...nor will our kids. It will take a VERY long time to recover from all of this. From refusing to talk with Iran to playing the fear card, president bush has literally exiled america from the rest of the world.
Back to the subject...
Obama seems the most realistic candidate...the most true-natured, but in the same sense we can't trust anyone running for president. It's all smoke and mirrors. Whether they do a good job just depends on the situations they are given.
huh? recover from what? Why do you think this?

 

[suzy]

Recover from a economy that Greenspan says will be the worst recession in our lifetime; a deficit that will reach more than 10,000,000,000,000 soon; a world where we have lost our standing as the moral leader; another failed war on terrorism that we can add to our failed war on drugs, war on poverty, war on the middle class.....
JM, do you ever wonder where Iran would be now if we hadn't helped put the Shaw in power? If their revolt against him didn't have to be a revolt against us?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2537552
Recover from a economy that Greenspan says will be the worst recession in our lifetime; a deficit that will reach more than 10,000,000,000,000 soon; a world where we have lost our standing as the moral leader; another failed war on terrorism that we can add to our failed war on drugs, war on poverty, war on the middle class.....
JM, do you ever wonder where Iran would be now if we hadn't helped put the Shaw in power? If their revolt against him didn't have to be a revolt against us?
*Greenspan has been wrong before.
*Deficit is an issue, as I've repeatedly said. However, I'd rather spend money on liberating 27 million people and stabalizing the Middle East over a doomed UHC program, more entitlements for the lazy, and trying to subsidize education and the oil industry...
*Total talking point crap from the left. Lost our moral standing? What moral standing did we have when Clinton was caught with a 19 year old intern and the famous blue dress? What moral standing do we have when leading Democrats, who voted to authorize we invade Iraq, now call to abandon our allies there? What moral standing did we gain when we repeatedly let terrorists attack us in the 90's? I've pointed out before, our two leading allied critics both recently elected pro-USA Leaders, so it's hard to say we've lost any "moral" anything.
*I absolutely wonder what would have happened had Carter (DEMOCRAT) handled Iran differently...

 

[suzy]

Well, I guess it can be about how it is the dems fault, if you like.

 

[zman1]

Decision time - Who do I pick? (Barack or Hillary if one chooses to run as a independent)
We could write-in:
One of the Keating 5 , well 3 since 1 is dead and 1 is already on the ballot.
Tony Resco
Jim or Susan McDougal Whitewater
Jeremiah Wright
John Hagee
Jerry Falwell
John Q Public
Dang it, so many write-in choices - who do I choose......

 

[zman1]

I will wait and see the listed canidates to be nominated and who they choose as a VP running mate before I go to the Write-in selection. That's just me though....

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2534683
I'd actually like to see real facts on this, and not from biased, partisan sources. And compare those stats to the overall crimes committed in relationship to the population.
So, if blacks are pulled over more, is that in every city in American, or in some particular cities? Where? And if they are pulled over, is it because they speed more often then whites in that city? There are a lot of variables, and I doubt there are any real valid stats on this subject.
For instance, in the city I live in robberies are higher than the national average and blacks are the ones mostly arrested for robberies. Is that because more blacks commit this crime in the city I live, or is it because only blacks are arrested and LE does a blind eye to white robbers??
I can understand how your questioning of my statements... I don't believe people of certain races are more inclined to commit crime than others... I believe that criminal activity such as robberies are committed based on status or economic class... Basically people who are poor or low income, are more inclined to commit crimes than middle or upper class. So in my mind it is not really black and white... I hear all the time remarks about blacks being thugs and that all the crimes in the city are commited by YBM's... thats what these people call them...
But if you measure the criminals or people arrested for particular offenses... the statistics don't lie... they show a clear bias in the justice system... There are real valid stats on this subject...
As far as speeding goes... I myself have been pulled over many...many times... I haven't been lately, but more than 10 times .. during some of those stops I've been questioned about all sorts of stupid things like where do I work, what do my parents do, I've had dogs sniff my car, one car would stop me and 3 more would show up for back up... Now this is just my own experience among many... But statistics show for example in the state of New York (I can find more if this is not enough...)
For 2007, the NYPD stopped 468,932 New Yorkers. Though they make up only 25% of the City’s population, half of those stopped were black. Of the 242,373 blacks stopped in 2007, about 87 percent were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, as they were neither given a summons nor arrested.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2537552
Recover from a economy that Greenspan says will be the worst recession in our lifetime; a deficit that will reach more than 10,000,000,000,000 soon; a world where we have lost our standing as the moral leader; another failed war on terrorism that we can add to our failed war on drugs, war on poverty, war on the middle class.....
JM, do you ever wonder where Iran would be now if we hadn't helped put the Shaw in power? If their revolt against him didn't have to be a revolt against us?
Minus the fact that you misquoted greenspan and his paper on the accuracy of economic models, the "failed war on terror" ignored who s tarted the war on drugs, poverty, and war on the middle class. this was an excellent post.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2534698
And that is why what he is saying is so wrong, do you expect a 10 year old to be able to grasp the whole concept instead of getting stuck on the you're screwed part of the sermon. If that is what he is saying.
He is not saying you are screwed.. he is saying put your trust in God... But lets not mix the two... I would rather have a 10 year old in church than on the street being approached by drug dealers or gangs.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2534864
Are these juries of their peers who are handing down these penalties?
Again, careful with raw statistics...
Pulled over at higher rates- Where? higher crime rated areas?
Detainted at higher rates- Again, where? Why? ID issues? Gang involvment, etc.?
Convicted at higher rates- Are they innocent?
Given longer sentences for same crimes- Was it a jury of their peers who sentenced them?
Given community service at lower rates- Why? By whom? Are the criminals more transient? Do they have jobs to be tied too? Are the crimes the same? (obviously you can't give violent crime offenders CS, so if one ethnic group is convicted more often of violent crimes then it stands to reason they will get lower CS)
incarecerated at higher rates- Again, are they innocent?
Show me a reliable study showing any particular minority group is being falsely convicted of crimes they did not convict. If you can't, then the legal system is not the issue.
So Journey.. you believe that the justice system is fair an unbiased? If so you are blind and to me it makes you less credible on other issues... you cruise the Internet trying to find evidence to support your other arguements.. but as I mentioned I doubt you will find anything to support this because it is not partisan. You mention a jury of peers... you should know that in many cases... this is not the case... I would like to know what Crimzy has to say about this issue since he is a lawyer who I believe has some criminal trial experience.
Let me also mention that I am not saying that most of these people are not guilty... what I am saying is that for equal crimes... blacks are much more likely to recieve stiffer sentences than their counterparts.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2537632
I can understand how your questioning of my statements... I don't believe people of certain races are more inclined to commit crime than others... I believe that criminal activity such as robberies are committed based on status or economic class... Basically people who are poor or low income, are more inclined to commit crimes than middle or upper class. So in my mind it is not really black and white... I hear all the time remarks about blacks being thugs and that all the crimes in the city are commited by YBM's... thats what these people call them...
But if you measure the criminals or people arrested for particular offenses... the statistics don't lie... they show a clear bias in the justice system... There are real valid stats on this subject...
As far as speeding goes... I myself have been pulled over many...many times... I haven't been lately, but more than 10 times .. during some of those stops I've been questioned about all sorts of stupid things like where do I work, what do my parents do, I've had dogs sniff my car, one car would stop me and 3 more would show up for back up... Now this is just my own experience among many... But statistics show for example in the state of New York (I can find more if this is not enough...)
For 2007, the NYPD stopped 468,932 New Yorkers. Though they make up only 25% of the City’s population, half of those stopped were black. Of the 242,373 blacks stopped in 2007, about 87 percent were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, as they were neither given a summons nor arrested.
I don't think that skin color is a factor as much as socio-economic factors. That being said, you're personal examples of "discrimination." I've had the same stuff happen, and you wouldn't know my ethnic backround just by looking at me you'd think I was a mutt like everyone else in america. I"ve been searched, sniffed by dogs, multiple car backups, randomly getting pulled over for "eratic drivings" or some other made up nonsense.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2537635
He is not saying you are screwed.. he is saying put your trust in God... But lets not mix the two... I would rather have a 10 year old in church than on the street being approached by drug dealers or gangs.
In that church, it would be an interesting question.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2537638
So Journey.. you believe that the justice system is fair an unbiased? If so you are blind and to me it makes you less credible on other issues... you cruise the Internet trying to find evidence to support your other arguements.. ....
That's right, I do "cruise the internet" to find support for my arguments. Is it too much to ask that you do the same?
Rylan, you've had dogs sniff your car? You've been pulled over 10+ times? Big deal. I've been pulled over more than 10 times in the 20 years I've been driving. I've had police guns drawn on me twice. I've been asked to stand in the rain and snow both while police looked into my car. I was once pulled over by a State Trooper who said simply "No big deal, just saw the dealer plates on your car, and as this hwy is a known drug route thought I better take a look". I once was in a Taxi that was stopped and searched by INS. I've been pulled over 3 times for being in a wealthy neighborhood late at night. I was pulled over at least once in a city that is primarily Hispanic because "white" was the description of a suspect the police were looking for. Having said all of that, let me explain the relevance; I'm caucasian. I went to a Church in the wealthy neighborhood and was often there late at night helping out. I was pulled over leaving from there multiple times. Both times guns were drawn on me were mistakes by the police. I got pulled over for speeding because I was speeding... I've never been in trouble for anything (other than speeding), i've been on staff at churches for over 12 years, I'm white, yet I've had many encounters with police.
Even in that thread of mine you quoted I simply asked for a source to back up your claims... I'm not arguing Rylan, I'm just asking for you to do exactly what I do; back up your claims.
Honestly Rylan, the fact you think I am blind and less credible on other issues is a mute point. I have never once asked you to trust me. I post info to back up my positions. Sadly, you seem to take the position it's ok to post whatever you believe to be true and then ignore the facts when presented. My gosh Rylan, how many threads of yours have I corrected with actual facts?
I'm giving you a blank check here Rylan. I'm simply asking you back up your position that the judicial system is biased against minorities. i'm willing to entertain that issue as I haven't studied it. I'm not willing, however, to take your opinion or premises as fact.
I ask about juries because I am genuinely curious. Are minority criminals being sentenced more harshly by minority juries? Are juries being unfairly picked to stack the deck against minoritires? I honestly don't know... I'm asking YOU to provide evidence as you are the one saying the judicial system is flawed.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Flanders1024
http:///forum/post/2537348
Obama seems the most realistic candidate...the most true-natured, but in the same sense we can't trust anyone running for president. It's all smoke and mirrors. Whether they do a good job just depends on the situations they are given.
True natured? The dude is endorsed by thugs like the new black panther party. Do a little research into their issues and the rhetoric they use. What is it about Obama that attracts them to support him? He hangs with a member of the Weather Underground who proudly proclaimed he wished he had done more back when they were doing the bombings. Rezko scandle Etc. and the press has just started to really dig into this guy. Not saying you shouldn't support him if you agree with his left wing political philosophy but go into it with your eyes open. This guy is a run of the mill politician, nothing more.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2537632
I can understand how your questioning of my statements... I don't believe people of certain races are more inclined to commit crime than others... I believe that criminal activity such as robberies are committed based on status or economic class... Basically people who are poor or low income, are more inclined to commit crimes than middle or upper class. So in my mind it is not really black and white... I hear all the time remarks about blacks being thugs and that all the crimes in the city are commited by YBM's... thats what these people call them...
But if you measure the criminals or people arrested for particular offenses... the statistics don't lie... they show a clear bias in the justice system... There are real valid stats on this subject...
As far as speeding goes... I myself have been pulled over many...many times... I haven't been lately, but more than 10 times .. during some of those stops I've been questioned about all sorts of stupid things like where do I work, what do my parents do, I've had dogs sniff my car, one car would stop me and 3 more would show up for back up... Now this is just my own experience among many... But statistics show for example in the state of New York (I can find more if this is not enough...)
For 2007, the NYPD stopped 468,932 New Yorkers. Though they make up only 25% of the City’s population, half of those stopped were black. Of the 242,373 blacks stopped in 2007, about 87 percent were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, as they were neither given a summons nor arrested.
You trying to say black don't commit crimes at a higher rate than other races? Statistics show otherwise. You can argue about the real cause but a fact is a fact. You say blacks get pulled over at a higher rate. Is that due to profiling or could it be tending to be poorer blacks are more likely to have a mechanical problem (Broken tail light, broken windshield etc.) or an expired registration. I'd love to see the percentage of black pullovers that resulted in a citation being issued vs. other races.

 

[gonefishcrazy]

Is that due to profiling or could it be tending to be poorer blacks are more likely to have a mechanical problem (Broken tail light, broken windshield etc.) or an expired registration.

Im gonna stay mute before I say something that offends people who are not racist.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2537997
Is that due to profiling or could it be tending to be poorer blacks are more likely to have a mechanical problem (Broken tail light, broken windshield etc.) or an expired registration.

Im gonna stay mute before I say something that offends people who are not racist.

If you got something to say come out and say it.

 

[suzy]

Rylan, one of my favorite people in a black woman who moved here a few years ago. She says it is really hard living here (Utah) because there are so few black people, very few with any ethnic background at all really. She gets followed in the stores when we go to the mall. I really thought she was being dramatic when she told me it would happen, and I was surprised when it did. Someone asked her husband at the grocery store if he was a Katrina refugee, and when was he going to go home.....
I think it will change for our children. I hope it will. Maybe if Obama gets in, we will not have to talk so much about race during future election cycles.

 

[gonefishcrazy]

Im done posting. Someone had the nerve to delete my post and I did'nt even say what I wanted to say. Now I know where you stand on these issues. Free at Last, Free at Last, Thank God Almighty Im free at last.