Obama supporters. I have one question

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534389
What does that matter? Is he not entitled to be in the black community? He is a black american.. There is nothing to that... He is in Chicago, which has a very large black population... I am sure that there are at least 1000 black churches in and around the city... Regardless of how you are raised... as an adult you can make whatever life choices you want... For example... lets say your parents are racist (hypothetical) and you were raised around a bunch of racists people... Is that your lot in life?... or do have the ability to make you own decisions about life...Or if you were raised aethist...or christian...or by gay parents... whatever... Parents have influence... but don't determine who are what you are or will become...
A year ago the talk was Obama Black enough. That is what this person based their opinion on. What would a black kid raised in Indonisia then Hawaii and sent to a prestigious private school Before moving on the Ivy league universities know of the plight of inner city blacks? He needed street cred. Sure he coulda joined another Black church but this was the one he ended up at.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534398
I think more fair penalties should be what we are going for... The prison population is out of control... We need IMO more/better programs for drug offenders... we need provide ways to give them opportunity to succeed... The money would be better spent in diversion programs, education/vocational programs, and etc... I don't believe they are all scumbags... as you call them.. as I mentioned 73% have very low level involment and just get caught up because their prospects are low, and its a easy way to make a lot of money.

So what you are really saying is lets decrease the sentences of those already convicted of selling crack. I wonder if you would feel the same way if they were mostly white?
I like taking scumbags off the street no matter what color they happen to be. And yes, if they are dealing they are scumbags

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534416
I disagree... we can look at all the statistics... for crimes that are equal... blacks recieve longer sentences... So are you asking me what is their agenda?.... I don't know.. Am I calling legislatures racist... no ... but facts are facts... you can interupt them however you want. So I'll say that there is frustration in the black community... Is everything that Wright said accurate... probably not...
Should Obama's presidency be linked to this guy... no... he is not running... Should people understand the remarks... yes
Do they have to agree with them... no
Well, ignoring all these other factors on the validity of what the reverend is saying. Because outside the in the tank obama supporters there is little debate.
I still fail to see how in the world you can argue that he has had no influence on the philosophy and perception of obama. (assuming you take obama's statements at face value that he was a close friend and his pastor of 20 years.) It just doesn't make sense.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2534438
So what you are really saying is lets decrease the sentences of those already convicted of selling crack. I wonder if you would feel the same way if they were mostly white?
I like taking scumbags off the street no matter what color they happen to be. And yes, if they are dealing they are scumbags
Would you feel the same way if they were?

What this is about is fairness... its about justice...
Prison is not the solution ... its a cycle ... I think violent criminals should be in jail ... I think that people who criminally take advantage of others should be in jail... As far as drug offenses... there has to be better way to rehabilitate these people... We could do much more with these people for less... Think of it... you could be spending less tax dollars towards prisons with more effective results... Prisons are big buisness though.. You also have to question the intent behind this...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534453
Would you feel the same way if they were?

What this is about is fairness... its about justice...
Prison is not the solution ... its a cycle ... I think violent criminals should be in jail ... I think that people who criminally take advantage of others should be in jail... As far as drug offenses... there has to be better way to rehabilitate these people... We could do much more with these people for less... Think of it... you could be spending less tax dollars towards prisons with more effective results... Prisons are big buisness though.. You also have to question the intent behind this...
Prison isn't a reabilitation it is punishment for being stupid.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2534450
Well, ignoring all these other factors on the validity of what the reverend is saying. Because outside the in the tank obama supporters there is little debate.
I still fail to see how in the world you can argue that he has had no influence on the philosophy and perception of obama. (assuming you take obama's statements at face value that he was a close friend and his pastor of 20 years.) It just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying he hasn't... what I am saying is that there is nothing to fear... This guy is the most open politician I've seen... I don't think divisive politics should weigh into the election... I think he is best suited to be the better of the 3.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2534469
Prison isn't a reabilitation it is punishment for being stupid.
You are right, though that is not its purpose are what officials call it... For people other than people who get life or death... its purpose is to reform or change your behavior... Prisons don't do that because they leave little options when you get out... You have to look at the problem holistically and ask yourselve why you are there in the first place... ya stupidity is a factor, but there are also other factors... which are likely to be worst when you get out that caused you to commit the crime in the 1st place, and will make you more likely to commit a similar crime...

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534371
There are a few things to look at.... 80% of inmates are drug offenders with as many as 80% of those inmates being african american... Reports show that the majority of drug users (66%) however are caucasian... So thats the 1st area to look at with the Drug Laws that are on the books... The debate of Cocaine vs Crack... We all know what groups are more likely to use which because of the cost disparity of these drugs... I'll have to check the #'s, but if a person sells 5 grams of crack (the equivialant of 5 sugar packets) gets a mandatory 5 years... The same penalty for power cocaine is at least 500 grams..... Lets go further...
73% of those sentenced had only low involvment..Which leads to socioeconomic policy and criminal justice policy. For young black men in the most disadvantaged schools, high dropout rates become a pathway to prison, with more than half of black male dropouts having been incarcerated by their mid-30s.
These outcomes contribute to a vicious cycle whereby incarceration reduces future job prospects and earnings power. In addition, there is an increasing spillover effect on families and communities... So incorporating 20+ of declining social and economic prospects for African-American males in particular, the result of the drug war and the harsh sentencing policies such as mandatory minimums and "three strikes" laws, imprisonment has increasingly become almost the norm in many low-income communities. If current trends continue, 1 in 3 black males born today will spend time in a state or federal prison in his lifetime....
So has the mandatory sentencing laws controlled the supply of drugs?...No
Is the drug trafficing trade one of the most destructive forces in the black community... Yes
Do these laws unporportionately affect minority groups such as hispanics and blacks over the others.... YES.
Multiple paragraphs filled with excuses and schewed statistics. Wherever you got those numbers from played a bait/switch game and you fell for it. 80% of inmates are drug offenders Notice that doesn't say that is why they are in prison, simply that they are drug offenders. Therefore any other numbers you try to associate with this number in relation to crime and drugs become obsolete. In fact, this number only goes to show drug users tend to be criminals and therefore should be locked up longer...
If you break the law, expect to be penalized. If you break the law 3 times, you're out. Done deal.
Your info does nothing to show how the laws adversely target minorities. All it says is that crime and drug use are more prevelant in the "black community", which feeds the stereotype many of us wish to not perpetuate.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534375
Well, thats your experience... Have you ever been to a black chuch?... Do you even go to church?... Have you heard other 'controversial' ministers such as Hagee and Pat Roberson?
I have. There is no comparison. Hagee preaches against the institution of the Catholic Church, Roberson is all over the map. Neither are racist.
Furthermore, I've yet to see a Republican candidate make a serious run for the White House while admitting Hagee or Roberson was their "Mentor" and placing one of them on their campaign staff as an advisor....

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534389
... as an adult you can make whatever life choices you want... For example... lets say your parents are racist (hypothetical) and you were raised around a bunch of racists people... Is that your lot in life?... or do have the ability to make you own decisions about life...Or if you were raised aethist...or christian...or by gay parents... whatever... Parents have influence... but don't determine who are what you are or will become...
Rylan, therein lies the heart of many of our concern over Obama; He CHOSE to be a friend and "mentoree" of the "Rev".

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534416
I disagree... we can look at all the statistics... for crimes that are equal... blacks recieve longer sentences... So are you asking me what is their agenda?.... I don't know.. Am I calling legislatures racist... no ... but facts are facts... you can interupt them however you want. So I'll say that there is frustration in the black community... Is everything that Wright said accurate... probably not...
Should Obama's presidency be linked to this guy... no... he is not running... Should people understand the remarks... yes
Do they have to agree with them... no
Rylan, who are the juries that sentence these minority criminals to longer sentences?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
...Is everything that Wright said accurate... probably not...
Probably not??? Are you saying there is any hope in Hades that everything he says is possibly accurate?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534453
Would you feel the same way if they were?

What this is about is fairness... its about justice...
Prison is not the solution ... its a cycle ... I think violent criminals should be in jail ... I think that people who criminally take advantage of others should be in jail... As far as drug offenses... there has to be better way to rehabilitate these people... We could do much more with these people for less... Think of it... you could be spending less tax dollars towards prisons with more effective results... Prisons are big buisness though.. You also have to question the intent behind this...
Yes, yes I would feel the same way. I don't care what color a person is; Break the law, go to jail. I'm all for mandatory sentencing, 3 strikes, etc.
How do you "rehabilitate" a dealer? Sorry, if a person chooses to deal a highly addictive poison then they need to be locked away; I don't care what color they are.
Prisons should be run cheaper, I agree. Take away the workout rooms, feed them bologna sandwhiches and water, no access to visitors, televison, etc. Make them work manual labor jobs, etc. I could run the prison system much cheaper... Prison should be a brutal place that no one ever wants to go to, much less go back to.
I do not question the intent. The intent is to get the lowest members of our society off of the streets. Again, no matter what color they happen to be.
Rylan, most of us don't see issues as black or white. We see them as issues in America.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534479
You are right, though that is not its purpose are what officials call it... For people other than people who get life or death... its purpose is to reform or change your behavior... Prisons don't do that because they leave little options when you get out... You have to look at the problem holistically and ask yourselve why you are there in the first place... ya stupidity is a factor, but there are also other factors... which are likely to be worst when you get out that caused you to commit the crime in the 1st place, and will make you more likely to commit a similar crime...
I don't care what the "external factors" are you still made a choice to do that. It is your choice. Not your friends or neighbors your choice and you will live with those consequences. There are no excuse no mitigating factors. I would go as far to say that this "oh it isn't your fault mentality" is far worse than some recreational drugs.
And another thing as if no one has been unfair to a white person. I've been screwed over more times that I'd like to admit. I could chalk it up to I'm brown. but it wasn't because of my race, ethicity or gender. But because the other person was simply a prick and he could. Get OVER IT!

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2534488
Multiple paragraphs filled with excuses and schewed statistics. Wherever you got those numbers from played a bait/switch game and you fell for it. 80% of inmates are drug offenders Notice that doesn't say that is why they are in prison, simply that they are drug users. Therefore any other numbers you try to associate with this number in relation to crime and drugs become obsolete. In fact, this number only goes to show drug users tend to be criminals and therefore should be locked up longer...
If you break the law, expect to be penalized. If you break the law 3 times, you're out. Done deal.
Your info does nothing to show how the laws adversely target minorities. All it says is that crime and drug use are more prevelant in the "black community", which feeds the stereotype many of us wish to not perpetuate.
I think you are missing what I wrote... The 80% are for drug crimes... Drug Users only do like 6mos-1year in jail... I am refering to people who are drug sellers, look outs, runners, etc... I believe that is what these #'s are based on.
2nd, drugs are not just prevelant in the black community ... I noted that 66% of crack users are white or hispanic.. Drug use, especially crack is usually fueled by lower income individuals... I don't think the #s show what you are saying... The majority of drug offenders have never been convicted of a violent crime... and 73% are as I mentioned low level...
My #'s clearly show how the laws affect minorities...
500 grams of cocaine = 5 grams of crack... So lets say Lindsey Lohain is crusing around and has 5 grams of cocaine... she is charged w/ a misdeameanor.. does a day in jail or gets community service... while a black kid gets pulled over for the same amount of crack and does 5 years.
The 80% are in jail for drug crimes... this is clear jounrney... If you want we can look up the sentencing stats for equal crimes, they will be clear.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534453
Would you feel the same way if they were?

What this is about is fairness... its about justice...
Prison is not the solution ... its a cycle ... I think violent criminals should be in jail ... I think that people who criminally take advantage of others should be in jail... As far as drug offenses... there has to be better way to rehabilitate these people... We could do much more with these people for less... Think of it... you could be spending less tax dollars towards prisons with more effective results... Prisons are big buisness though.. You also have to question the intent behind this...
I answered your first question in my original post.
You want to be fair to drug dealers? These laws only hammer those with distribution amounts, not some poor crack addict that that steals kids bikes to get a pipe full or two.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534470
I'm not saying he hasn't... what I am saying is that there is nothing to fear... This guy is the most open politician I've seen... I don't think divisive politics should weigh into the election... I think he is best suited to be the better of the 3.

You must have missed the press conference when he walked out with the reporters begging him to come back and answer more than 8 questions about his connections to Rezko

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2534516
I don't care what the "external factors" are you still made a choice to do that. It is your choice. Not your friends or neighbors your choice and you will live with those consequences. There are no excuse no mitigating factors. I would go as far to say that this "oh it isn't your fault mentality" is far worse than some recreational drugs.
And another thing as if no one has been unfair to a white person. I've been screwed over more times that I'd like to admit. I could chalk it up to I'm brown. but it wasn't because of my race, ethicity or gender. But because the other person was simply a prick and he could. Get OVER IT!
External factors due have direct influences on your choices.... Whats clear to me is that many of you find it difficult to see the other side... I am no way saying that being a drug dealer should go unpunished... but you have to consider why people do what they do... Factors such as education, absent fathers- who went down as a result of this, no viable jobs, substandard housing... etc. I'm not making an excuse... but what you fail to see is the cycle that keeps these things going...If what you see around you is bad... and the only thing you see are drug dealers who have everything you think is good... money, women, nice cars, respect, etc... than a teen or young man who has nothing at home... no prosepects of college, no positive male figure in the home... it is very tempting. ..
I've been discriminated against... I mentioned earlier it happened blantanly twice this weekend.. 1st time I chalked it up... 2nd time I was upset and wanted to do something about it...

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2534557
I answered your first question in my original post.
You want to be fair to drug dealers? These laws only hammer those with distribution amounts, not some poor crack addict that that steals kids bikes to get a pipe full or two.
As I said I am not condoning it... Crack is very addictive and I have seen what it does to a person... just as if you may have seen meth

... But you can't prosecute it unfairly...

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2534574
As I said I am not condoning it... Crack is very addictive and I have seen what it does to a person... just as if you may have seen meth

... But you can't prosecute it unfairly...

THATS MY WHOLE POINT. Lock them all up. Crack is worse than cocaine, yes? That doesn't make a cocaine dealer a good guy. The whole idea behind the stiffer sentences for crack was because it was thought (and here was where the govt. got it right for a change) crack would plague low income areas so they made the penalties stiff. That doesn't mean they made them too stiff. Just means they need to increase the penalties for coke dealing to the same level.