Obama wins!

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2637543
*Soviet held eastern Europe
*China
*South Vietnam
*Cambodia
*Rwanda
*Darfur
Ya, we've never allowed genocide to happen before...
LOL, you forgot the Native Americans. I guess we don't have a good track record and we need some CHANGE! OBAMA 2008
 

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by otley 1975
http:///forum/post/2637563
He grew up in Indonesia which has the highest pop. of muslim, he went to muslim school, his father was muslim and he went back to Africa to get in touch with his muslim side. He may be a "practicing" muslim but his whole history is full of it and what about the name thats not muslim?
LOL, my dad is a biggot does that mean I am one as well
Otley, I highly doubt you were a Clinton supporter and you're just trying to stir up trouble here. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Hillary also want to institute some sort of universal health care plan?
"Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she might be willing to garnish the wages of workers who refuse to buy health insurance to achieve coverage for all Americans."
 

otley 1975

Member
At least she had a plan and yes I AM a hillary supporter and I really want a Dem in office, but as in the last election I can't vote for the candiate they put up. As for your dad and you I really don't know if your a biggot or not, nor do I care I'm just trying to make the point that he is scary and I would expect a comment like
Based on what I've read you should probably go regardless of the outcome.
Today 02:06 PM
from a Hussien supportor.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2637585
LOL, you forgot the Native Americans. I guess we don't have a good track record and we need some CHANGE! OBAMA 2008

Actually I didn't forget the Native Americans, I just didn't feel the need to go back more than 60 years.
Let's not forget, you said we would never allow genocide to happen, yet I listed 6 different occasions in the past 60 years where over 50 million people lost their lives.
Also, if you think Obama, the outspoken Isolationist, would be willing to do anything you're kidding yourself.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
As an economist, let me answer some of your questions. First off, you and I both agree that Michigan is in the dumps economically right? Let me ask you something, who do you think runs Michigan? It isn't republicans. Right, Michigan is a VERY liberal state. Labor unions, right to work state ect. (why do you think that new car manufacturing plants aren't in michigan?) Well, Michigan has extreemly high taxes, high government regulations in industry, and very very high unemployment (it is european numbers) like 9.5%. Almost twice as high as the rest of the USA. And that doesn't touch the social issues like crime, drugs ect. Or we could look at pre-katrina, high poverty rates, high unemployment rates, high crime rates, alot of government corruption and high taxes. These are democrat utopias they get whatever they want passed at the state level, and these plans haven't worked.
Lets think about something else. Here in the gulf there are two major ports. New Orleans and Houston, NEw Orleans is a far better port from a water stand point. But the port of houston is bigger, why? Because of the political environment and taxes. Houston is cheaper to get into and out of. Basically the difference in the political system has allowed for rampant growth in houston vs NO. It is basically an apples to apples comparison.
As for the status quo question, it depends what you are refering to as status quo, if you are talking about the government spending rediculous amounts of money then you are right, that needs to stop, (I don't think either candidate will do this however) But if you are talking the freedman style of economics then yes that needs to remain the same.
Back in the 30's there was this economic called keynes. He was the father of control style economics. And it didn't work. When they were rebuilding Japan and Germany they initially used his premises and had to deal with rampant hyperinflation, interest rates and rediculous unemployment. He called for the nationalization of major industries, and lets to inefficient and expensive industries that were not competitive.
The problem is sustainability, his policies do in the short run grow the economy, but it isn't sustainable (that is why our economy crashed during the carter years) it wasn't unti Reagan and his embrace of Friedman economics (which is a hands off approach) that we experience the extreem growth we had during the reagan bush clinton bush years. The downside is that we are more succeptable to little up and downturns that happen. It has been sooo good that when we only have 1% growth and the low 5.5% unemployment we have people running around with their hands in the air screaming "the sky is falling."
The problem I see now is that we are drifting back (even with this prez) to a more keynesian style of system (the massive bailout). The problem is when we prop up by more controls industries that aren't self-sustaining, the bottom gets farther and farther way and it takes more and more to prop them up, then we have to have a MASSIVE correction, vs letting it slowly waine away. A good example of this was in England with Margaret Thatcher and the coal industry. When they finally decided they can't keep paying for expensive coal from england vs importing way cheaper overseas. They had a massive failure in the industry vs letting stuff die slowly without the massive increase in unemployment, and MASSIVE costs in taxes and higher coal prices that the local population experienced.
So when I see someone advocating this type system it does scare the crap out of me, one because he isn't smart enough to learn from watching someone else touch the burner on the stove and two because it will burn us. Not today maybe not tomorrow, but soon.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Another thought from Ruben
Do you remember the boston tea party? And the no taxation without representation chant?
With obama who is going to tax the hell out of Rich people (who pay for lobbiest) And him saying that he is going to shut out those lobbiest? Sounds like taxation without representation to me...
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Jmick;2637532 said:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2637530
Where are your figures? I want to see solid numbers and don't cite a rightwing site.
You can guess what will happen but you can't say with 100% certainty. I actually have no problem with keeping a small force in Iraq but I'd much rather see the UN head it up. I do agree, the last thing I'd want to see is genocide take place and you know as well as I, that we'd never allow this.
I don't have a specific site. But I can add.
Ok studies show (and you can look this up yourself) that Americans spend 1.8 TRILLION dollars per year on healthcare insurance. That comes out to a little over 6000 per person. This ONLY counts those with healthcare.
Obama wants to cover every american. He says it will only cost between 4-5000 per person per year......
Now I get my figure from low balling that...You do the math how much will it cost
?
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Jmick;2637532 said:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2637530
Where are your figures? I want to see solid numbers and don't cite a rightwing site.
You can guess what will happen but you can't say with 100% certainty. I actually have no problem with keeping a small force in Iraq but I'd much rather see the UN head it up. I do agree, the last thing I'd want to see is genocide take place and you know as well as I, that we'd never allow this.

You keep asking for proof, yet when faced with the actual words Obama uses ( "collective", etc) you ignore the facts and refuse to see him for the socialist he is.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2637729
Do you help those who don't have the money to pay or lack insurance?
Yeah, actually have, spend a systemster working in a mobile hospital helping those with no access to healthcare.
"The lord helps those who help themselves." - Ben Franklin
for you whining about our healthcare system, you should do what I did for a few month, those people have NO healthcare. We don't have it bad here. I know some POOR people, they go to the doctor more than I do.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2637729
Do you help those who don't have the money to pay or lack insurance?
That's quite an offensive question.
I've given away over $1 million in free care over the years. I can't even write it off my taxes, so yes I have. I'm an Emergency Physician, and even if not under an unfunded federal mandate to provide care, I would do it as it is the right thing to do.
My last job was about 50% uninsured. Does your job start out with a 50% loss too?
So you giving 1/2 your income up too?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2637262
So, by your logic, my Grandfather, who was blind in one eye and could not pass the military physical was just a greedy man working double shifts in a TNT plant during WWII. He could not join the "real" Army, but I'll bet you he killed more axis soldiers and destroyed more axis war material through the TNT he made than any single combat soldier.
Working for the war effort during WWII is no comparison to what these contractors do over in the Middle East. They aren't helping supply actual military supplies like trucks, tanks, ammo, planes, etc. Most of them are doing grunt work the normal Army doesn't have time to do, administrative and 'technical' duties, and some particular 'secret' stuff. You think the men and women who supported the war effort during WWII got paid anywhere near what they pay these contractors? A majority of them worked for nothing, doing it simply for patriotism. If Journey is the true patriot he states he is, then he should take every dime he makes over there and hand to the locals he so desparately wants to help.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2637318
I've posted my motives before. I feel no need to try to explain them to you. Clearly from your posts regarding joining terrorist groups you and I will never see eye to eye.
I will, however, ask what exactly you are doing to make the world a better place?
Our military losses are at all time lows in Iraq. While every life is sacred, you can't deny that fact. Feel free to check the numbers yourself. Pointing out an attack that killed several of our servicemen doesn't change that point.
You have that right. You're so far right, I couldn't see you around a corner. What am I doing? I've donated thousand of dollars and hours of time helping my local community be a better place to live. I spent two weeks in New Orleans right after Katrina helping with the displaced AMERICANS, even assisting with ridding of the multiple corpses. So you see, I take care of the homefront, where it matters.
If one soldier dies, it's not low enough. It's sad to think you'd believe anything different.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2637888
Working for the war effort during WWII is no comparison to what these contractors do over in the Middle East. They aren't helping supply actual military supplies like trucks, tanks, ammo, planes, etc. Most of them are doing grunt work the normal Army doesn't have time to do, administrative and 'technical' duties, and some particular 'secret' stuff. You think the men and women who supported the war effort during WWII got paid anywhere near what they pay these contractors? A majority of them worked for nothing, doing it simply for patriotism. If Journey is the true patriot he states he is, then he should take every dime he makes over there and hand to the locals he so desparately wants to help.
Grandpa actually was paid well, and did his duty. Should Grandpa have given his money back, or to the Germans/Japanese?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2637378
Jmick, and the rest you never answered these questions.....how can you expect some of us to see why you support this guy if you can't answer the simple questions. I touch on policy only, none of the other "stuff" Yet you can't even respond when it comes to just policy....why is that? Could it be because you are blindly following and don't know the answer...
I ask you obama supporters again. And do try to answer these questions.
How is he going to pay for his healthcare program that is reported going to cost 500 billion per year minimum?
How is going to help out those states that have job crisis because they relied heavily on manufacturing and the auto industry when more auto plants are closiung because gas is so high but he won't support the one GUARANTEED way to be bring down gas prices in this country to help stimulate the desire for certain autos again.
How is he going to bring the country together, when 40% of the country has moral views exactly opposite to his.....How do you get people to compromise their morals and ignore them....this is what he claims he will do.
How is he going to safely pull out of Iraq without destabilizing the region more and send gas prices even higher due to lack of oil production. Right now Iraq is producing more oil than their entire history has ever shown....how expensive will gas be if Iraq oil wells are shut down due to regional middle east free for all for the country of Iraq?
How will his pull out of Iraq prevent a similar genocide such as occurred in Vietnam killing over 10 million people in massacres and "cleansings"?
Ultimately all of these proposed 'changes' Obama and McCain spout are up to Congress. All either one of them can do is persuade Congress to follow their requests. So Obama would be the logical choice to nominate, since Congress is currently run by the Democrats. Put McCain in, and he's nothing more than a lame duck president. He can propose all the policies he wants, but the Demos that run Congress will just ignore them.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2637903
Ultimately all of these proposed 'changes' Obama and McCain spout are up to Congress. All either one of them can do is persuade Congress to follow their requests. So Obama would be the logical choice to nominate, since Congress is currently run by the Democrats. Put McCain in, and he's nothing more than a lame duck president. He can propose all the policies he wants, but the Demos that run Congress will just ignore them.

Yet they expect Conservatives to meet them at least half way? Dems want us to be bipartisan, but when the shoe's on the other foot, no way are we being bipartisan. Look at the Sentate fed judge backlog. Clinton got almost every one of his judges, no matter how liberal, yet Bush nominations sit on the back burnier for years.
Blah, blah, same old stuff. Do as I say and not as I do.
 

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2637739
That's quite an offensive question.
I've given away over $1 million in free care over the years. I can't even write it off my taxes, so yes I have. I'm an Emergency Physician, and even if not under an unfunded federal mandate to provide care, I would do it as it is the right thing to do.
My last job was about 50% uninsured. Does your job start out with a 50% loss too?
So you giving 1/2 your income up too?
The question was not meant to be offensive; I was curious how your place of employment dealt with those who don't have the means to pay for their care?
Do you own your own practice or do you work for a hospital? I would imagine when you took the Hippocratic Oath you made a promise to offer to help to all people in a manner that would see to their best interests.
50% loss please, you compensate by marking things up to outrageous prices and passing those costs on to the people who can afford insurance. If it was so bad and you were having a hard time getting by people wouldn't spend the $$ and invest the time to become a doctor.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2637925
The question was not meant to be offensive; I was curious how your place of employment dealt with those who don't have the means to pay for their care?
Do you own your own practice or do you work for a hospital? I would imagine when you took the Hippocratic Oath you made a promise to offer to help to all people in a manner that would see to their best interests.
50% loss please, you compensate by marking things up to outrageous prices and passing those costs on to the people who can afford insurance. If it was so bad and you were having a hard time getting by people wouldn't spend the $$ and invest the time to become a doctor.

It is that bad:
Medical and nursing school applications are down. It almost doesn't pay. Even with the "mark ups", we sometimes only see $0.30 on the dollar. Few businesses can operate this way. I have friend in primary care than spend 12-14 years after high school and rack up $500,000 indebt to make $90,000/year. Now $90,000/year seems good, but start that at the age of 30+ and with $500,000 in debt and you are making less than plumbers ( no offense).
I am in a group practice at this time. My real income has decreased the last 4 years due to medicare and other cuts. My school debts have not been cut. 13 years after med school I am still in debt from college and med school.
BTW due to abortions ( thanks libs) I did not take the Hippocratic oath. There's this part about not harming human life that would get in the way of abortions. I had to take the Prayer of Maimonides. One of the things I was looking forward to when I earned my Doctorate was the Hippocratic Oath. That was taken from me just to make abortions that much easier. Under the Hippocratic Oath, abortions would only be allowed to save mom.
 
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