Our Future?

autofreak44

Active Member
Originally Posted by texanangel
Now, back to my original point, we have warm-cold-warm-cold-warm documented in the world's history (climate I mean). The first warm cycle was early middle ages or so, then cold led to the dark ages, then warm to the rennaisance (yeah, I spelled it wrong I bet), then cold led to the 'little ice age' that spurred migration southward (caused by a volcano I believe), then warm, which we are still living in. The highest recorded carbon was in the early 1900's (from volcanos, I think), not now. I'm not saying that we humans don't need to clean up our act, but we are nothing when compared to the forces of nature. If you really want to understand what it takes to affect the climate, study vulcanology, then you'll understand why it would be so difficult for cars/coal to take the blame. Plus, cows/livestock really do put out a lot of carbon emissions, trust me, my uncle's a dairy farmer. Again, we may be helping it along (I'm not going to bother counting the ways), but so far we are following a standard cycle. The cycle may suck, but that's the way of things. If the world were to stagnate we'd be in far greater trouble. And trust me, having been to many conventions, many/most (approximately 90% and up, I know the stats, and trust me the scientists are being hushed up, but by whom?) scientists don't personally agree with the political stand on global warming. A true scientist would look at the data, look at the fact we have nothing but our current stand point to compare it to, and tell you we don't have the information to come to a conclusion. You have to understand the layers that surround our lovely planet before you can understand how anything more than space dust can affect us adversly. In any case, there is no proven way to change (notice I'm not saying 'help' because I don't know what the earth wants) the co2. Although, if global warming is correct, then the seas get warmer, which makes algae grow (and a ton of it), and down go the co2 ratings.
And for those who are worried about reefs, they won't disappear, they will move. And I'm sure that if the movement is drastic enough, all reef keepers will become instant millionaires with the stock you have at home. Wouldn't you love the job of saving fish and corals from the reef and relocating them to a better home? Heck, if you can create a living reef in your home, I'm sure the government, if only for tourist money, would want you to aquascape their coasts.
i was gonna say something about the whole earth's crazy past, but i was to lazy to research it, so good for you, and thanks
 

autofreak44

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jovial
Cows
... methane?
how bad would that smell, thats not green house gases, thats crappy stink gases
 

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by autofreak44
how bad would that smell, thats not green house gases, thats crappy stink gases
What do you think about ethanol power?
 

jovial

Member
Corn is one source, most commonly grain or sugar crops can also produce ethanol. Brazil uses sugar cane.
 

ironsnipes

Member
why do you think gas prices are so high? so you can drive less for your money! maybe we will be around when everything goes to hell, the aztec calender predicts 2012 being the end of the world.
 

texanangel

Member
Thanks. I'm just glad someone actually reads my posts. I'm used to writing papers and such, so I tend to create a wall-o-text.
I truly believe that our answers to today's problem(s), lie in our history and innovation. And if people would only think for themselves and spend a few minutes of their free time to study, the world would be a better place. If nothing else we could have better debates.
Did no one think my reef thing was funny? It could be possible, not probable at this point, but possible.
 

garnet13aj

Active Member
But I assure you the EARTH will go on just fine, even if every human was gone.
I believe this too. The question is, do we use and abuse our earth until it changes it's cycles so much, in order to counter balance our actions, that it is no longer a liveable place for human beings. Or do we act now so that future generations can enjoy the earth as we do now.
 

garnet13aj

Active Member
I'm still waiting to hear some sources (books, articles, documentaries etc) from those who think we can't affect our climate. So far I haven't read anything legit, that doesn't mean it's not out there, I just haven't read it. If you want me (a professed tree hugger) to shut up about human induced global warming give me something convincing to read/watch.
 

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by garnet13aj
I'm still waiting to hear some sources (books, articles, documentaries etc) from those who think we can't affect our climate. So far I haven't read anything legit, that doesn't mean it's not out there, I just haven't read it. If you want me (a professed tree hugger) to shut up about human induced global warming give me something convincing to read/watch.
I think we can affect our climate. But it really isnt a global priority to many others right now. It is to some in the US but not the rest of the world considering other more imminant threats. I mean if asked, Im sure most especially in Africa would care more about economic issues, govt stability or where the next meal will come from rather than global warming due to the hierarchy of survival, i.e food, shelter, clothing. I must confess also that is not at the top of my worry list until I start seeing proof of it at home, this may sound ignorant, but the fact is glaciers here in the US are growing. Yes it may be naive to ignore the polar bears in Antartica but it's the truth and I think many others may feel this way also considering the lack of world initiative on this issue.
 

texanangel

Member
Originally Posted by garnet13aj
I'm still waiting to hear some sources (books, articles, documentaries etc) from those who think we can't affect our climate. So far I haven't read anything legit, that doesn't mean it's not out there, I just haven't read it. If you want me (a professed tree hugger) to shut up about human induced global warming give me something convincing to read/watch.

Frankly I don't know what I can and can's post as far as references go, that's why I haven't. And has your research led you to believe that humans have induced global warming this time around? And if so, would you site your references? Many of my points come from history, and if you search your history books (mainly Europe kept records about climate at that time) you'll find the warming and cooling trends. Again I point to volcanology, since a super volcano is probably the only thing that can put crap up in the air high enough to affect the sun's impact on earth. Search 'the little ice age' and you'll see what I mean.
And don't worry, it's not bad to hug trees, but pines might get sticky.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by garnet13aj
I'm still waiting to hear some sources (books, articles, documentaries etc) from those who think we can't affect our climate. So far I haven't read anything legit, that doesn't mean it's not out there, I just haven't read it. If you want me (a professed tree hugger) to shut up about human induced global warming give me something convincing to read/watch.

We can't provide you with something convincing really. Either you are open to researching it for yourself, or not. There are lots of climatologists who disagree strongly with the hype, but they are shouted down. Not hard to find them, but it is if you are not open to it.
There is evidence in the geologic history of the earth, and it is fact...not modeling, not supposition. Fact. Probably about all there is on the issue.
Know this about science. Science goes where the money goes. It is hard to survive as a scientist if you don't get grants, and grants go to people with gloom and doom stories because that gets people depressed and sells really well. I know it, I was there...
But this is like saying "prove there is a God." I can't. You believe it, or you don't. I can show all the good things in the world as "proof" and someone can show all the bad. I can show you all manner of facts about the geologic history of the planet showing obvious warming in the past, and someone can show all manner of facts about smog. You believe what you believe, but it isn't necessarily science. And it is confusing apples and oranges.
IMO it is OUR responsibility to research the issue and science and come to conclusions, and not be fed the information regardless of what side of the debate you are on.
But keep in mind we can't forecast the weather particularly well. We were TOTALLY wrong on hurricane season last year, (and on a related note) we have a hard time forecasting global scale weather events such as El Nino/Southern Oscillation, in fact, we probably aren't even aware of most of what is involved. We can't even hindcast many of these events (eg, go back in time and try and forecast an event that we know happened). We don't know everything. We are ONLY human after all.
Now yes, clean up the air, clean up the water, for our OWN benefit. But that is different than "saving the planet" which is mythinformation at its best. RESEARCH "alternative" fuels such as ethanol because though many sound great they have HUGE enviro-impacts of their own (eg deforestation to grow corn). Make smart decisions about what you buy, how you buy it and what you recycle or reuse. Buy a brand spanking new house where they cut every tree down, or look for a older construction that won't have that impact? Do you really need and use a truck or SUV? Make smart decisions - the dollar speaks. The dollar is driving the fear and hype - mark my words, many "global warming" folks are pulling in some big money.
Worried about polar bears? Where were all of you when the saber tooth cat and wooly mammoth went extinct due to warming?
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/...h-extinct.html
Adapt or die. Harsh but true. It is the truth for millions of years...and millions of years in the future.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by texanangel
Thanks. I'm just glad someone actually reads my posts. I'm used to writing papers and such, so I tend to create a wall-o-text.

I understand completely. Me too!
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jovial

OK
Your being defensive. If it makes you feel better to believe this go ahead. Have a nice day.

Defensive? I suppose I am defensive because I defend my belief in the laws of nature. I will attempt to be short simple and blunt. In my first reply to this thread I gave my opinion, that changes happens and then I asked a completely seperate question. You responded to my question but you gave incorrect information.
Originally Posted by Jovial
Volume stays constant, it just takes on a different form i.e vapor, solid or liquid. . . .
Volume changes with temperature, you first claimed it is a constant and have not corrected yourself to this point.
You have also stated:
Originally Posted by Jovial

Just the opposite. Same mass in less volume (area) = higher density. Ice has a higher density, it's a solid. . . .
This is also not true. First volume is not area, this is like saying a cube is a square, one is 3 dimensional and one is 2 dimensional. Second, ice has a lower density, atleast in general, compared to water.
Next you brought up distilled water (which I would like to mention is not pure water, I have distilled quite a bit of water in my day and none of it was pure, and the ice made from it floated in the water I made) and heavy water. I do not see the connection between them and ice caps melting and how that changes sealevel.
So, volume changes with temperature, if you choose not to believe this then I do not believe I can convince you.
 

ophiura

Active Member
OK....I don't want to be accused of calling names

But you guys are geeks

I mean this is the best possible way, BTW, because there is nothing more fun than arguing physics, which would make me a geek too actually. I don't care for most aquarium threads but thankfully the opportunity comes along for such debate

I do hope, however, that it stays on the civil side, OK
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
. . . I do hope, however, that it stays on the civil side, OK

Great, now my hands are tied.
Sorry, I couldn't resist making a lame attempt at humor...
 

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Defensive? I suppose I am defensive because I defend my belief in the laws of nature. I will attempt to be short simple and blunt. In my first reply to this thread I gave my opinion, that changes happens and then I asked a completely seperate question. You responded to my question but you gave incorrect information.
Volume changes with temperature, you first claimed it is a constant and have not corrected yourself to this point.
You have also stated:
This is also not true. First volume is not area, this is like saying a cube is a square, one is 3 dimensional and one is 2 dimensional. Second, ice has a lower density, atleast in general, compared to water.
Next you brought up distilled water (which I would like to mention is not pure water, I have distilled quite a bit of water in my day and none of it was pure, and the ice made from it floated in the water I made) and heavy water. I do not see the connection between them and ice caps melting and how that changes sealevel.
So, volume changes with temperature, if you choose not to believe this then I do not believe I can convince you.
:mad:
It's not a matter of me trying to convince you, it's a matter of you understanding. Further attempts would simply be a waste of energy so to that end I will default by saying your right, Im wrong, your good, Im bad, your smart, Im dumb... sorry to waste your time.
 
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