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reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193638
I am not a fan of Intelligent Design yet because there are still many holes in their theories. They don't have the advantage that the theory of evolution had: 100 years of scrutiny and modification.
But to say that the Cambrian Explosion has been explained is farsighted at best. I mean, I could come up with a theory that the chicken suit reef dart wears came from Krypton and explain that meteors formed with feathers on their surface, and then grew wings, flying through space, hitting earth, then got sown together by the wind, blown onto reefdarts doorstep for him to find and put on. I mean, how far fetched to these theories need to get before we realize that they're simply not conceivable? With each step comes another batch of variables, all with their own properties of "chance." And it's exponential - each step multiplies the last, in a 1-2-4-8-16 fashion. I'm not saying all theories are like this, but they've really baked up some serious ones along the process.
The Flagellar motor defies natural selection in the sense that it has 40 parts in it's makeup. None of the parts would have worked in any other way. If single traits are added and removed over millions of years, how was that the case with the flagellar motor? It would be like getting a 40-piece puzzle and saying that it randomly solved itself. We know that not to be the case today, and although we can't wait millions of years to see if it actually does, again, it's simply not conceivable. Even if we placed the puzzle on the ground and allowed erosion to "solve" this puzzle, how is that an answer?
I would find it almost more conceivable, and more reasonable, to look at our world and think it was "designed" in some form. But Intelligent Design is still in it's infancy. I don't want to vehemently defend it.... yet.
If you wanna see evolution happen before your eyes get an HIV virus apply some antibiotics then watch some live reproduce and then apply a little antibiotic again and no viruses will die, thus demonstrating evolution and natural selection.
how does the paragraph in red pretain to evolution? if anything that would supports lamarcks theory of design by choice which had already been disproven.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193654
Flower, you seem to have a lot of knowledge of the Jewish faith and I respect that. But the above point is one I disagree with.
What you described above is what we consider to be a "cult." I'm sure you can agree with me when I say the bible can easily be manipulated. With no training and no accountability, it can become anything you want. It's this form of religion that bombs abortion clinics and holds signs that say "God hates fags" - it's an abomination to the faith and if those people had any idea what the bible ACTUALLY said, they'd find that it breaks the heart of their God to do such evil in the name of "Religion."
I'm sure that's why those of the Jewish faith take so much care into recreating the Torah and uphold it's truth so accurately. It's important not to change what's been written.
But if some Joe off the street decided to pick up a bible and bring people to his house and "teach" them about it, that does not make him a preacher. Although 1-2 christian denominations accept forms of Christianity similar to that (e.g. The Universal Church - where you can be "ordained" in 30 minutes online and marry people), it is not acceptable.
IF you have a guy who wants to be a volunteer at their church and coordinate a bible study in accordance to a template that church put together, then that's acceptable because there's accountability. You really need to be held accountable when you push the gospel, otherwise it gets twisted, perverted. The bible changes from a tool of peace and love... it becomes a tool for war and hate. If you ever come across a church or group of people who promote that, RUN.
If you go in and read the NT that is basically what they did. A handful of people went out, started telling people about the experience with Jesus and that he's alive. In houses, fields where ever... There was no sanctioned "church" denominations etc. It grew into a larger thing. IMO there was a reason the scripture ended up focusing on the smaller congregations as far as actual examples of teaching, or a gathering of believers.
So I wouldn't go as far as calling an unorganized gathering a cult. (not that cult leaders don't do the same thing with twisted theology.)
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193660
Dude, I applaud your passion. It's good stuff!
But this one is another one I have to disagree with. If you look at the New Testament, you will find that a LOT of things became different between Judaism and Christianity. Although believing Jesus was the Messiah is a big difference between the two, so are many of the rules that we follow. I can eat pork... I can eat anything because what is "unclean" doesn't matter so much - For Christians, it's the state of the heart, not the food. I don't have to give 10%. I don't have to sacrifice animals when I sin... (sorry, little friendly jab there for you - I know forgiveness is now dealt with differently for Jews).
I dont think she is talking about some of the more legal stuff. The messiah is the difference, all the other stuff, such as no longer calling god creation unclean is a result of the messiah.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3193662

Friend:
Any good cathoilic wll tell you, anything other than the Holy Roman Church is a cult. Every baptist will tell you anyone not baptized the way they are...is a cult and a liar.
Now for the kicker...every prophet of scripture was a Joe off the street before HaShem called him to do a service. Not one of them had a degree. They were accountable to only One Being...That One Being had no problem letting folks know who HE had chosen as a leader..Moses is a great example.
We're talking about Christianity though, Right? Catholics are a hole different story. And I think you're getting a little extreme with the baptist denomination. I don't believe that to be true. Baptists are conservative in their faith (no dancing, etc) but their condemnation isn't that vast.
Yes, I agree that EVERYONE starts as Joe off the street.... Starts as one. It's their training that defines them for the role. I don't want to get a dog groomer to do my taxes (no offense DarthTang). In the same way, I'm not going to believe in something if the person giving the teaching hasn't been taught. That standard is universal and transcends all knowledge. That's what I'm getting at. Don't believe an un-trained person. Don't take a college class by a professor who just decided to put "professor" before his name. Don't go to a doctor for open heart surgery just because they decided to learn Calligraphy and make their own degree.
In the same way, don't listen to a pastor who just decided to call himself pastor. It's most definitely a cult from the viewpoint of the Christian faith.
You talk of HaShem calling those into service. Does that happen today? Are there "prophets" who predict the future? I don't think so, at least not valid ones. If nothing has changed in the Judaic faith from then to today, why are so many things different?
 

srfisher17

Active Member
My Pastor could easily make 10X his salary in the private sector.
BTW, Whatever your situation; I care, so please send me some money.
(Unless you're Tiger Woods or one of his Celeb-Chasing Groupies (Or Gropies?)...then I don't give a rats doupa (Polish). But, its still OK to send money.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3193673
If you go in and read the NT that is basically what they did. A handful of people went out, started telling people about the experience with Jesus and that he's alive. In houses, fields where ever... There was no sanctioned "church" denominations etc. It grew into a larger thing. IMO there was a reason the scripture ended up focusing on the smaller congregations as far as actual examples of teaching, or a gathering of believers.
So I wouldn't go as far as calling an unorganized gathering a cult. (not that cult leaders don't do the same thing with twisted theology.)
Religion vary in how they are practiced because they each interpret the bible nt and etc differently from one another.
You can certainly classify religion as a large cult, because religion gains support form the masses, whom dont challenge the belief, and live by the laws,set by the higher up, without hesitation. Cults are not neccessarily groups with evil intentions, a cults is nothing more than a group of people who follow the ruling of a single powerful member (in this case the bible ).
to support this look back in the old middle ages, kings and other leaders would frequently "revise" the ot and bible and etc stories to better serve the purpose and gain undying loyalty by the public.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3193673
So I wouldn't go as far as calling an unorganized gathering a cult. (not that cult leaders don't do the same thing with twisted theology.)
Don't get me wrong. It's about the teaching. It were those who were taught directly from Jesus, their Rabbi, who went out and taught. According to the Christian faith, it doesn't get any better than that. They were trained by him. Yes, although they were Joes off the street, they still had the training. That's really the key.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193669
If you wanna see evolution happen before your eyes get an HIV virus apply some antibiotics then watch some live reproduce and then apply a little antibiotic again and no viruses will die, thus demonstrating evolution and natural selection.
Honestly man, I don't get this at all. How does a virus prove evolution? I could just as easily say that it was God who designed HIV to be immune to antibiotics. Or the Great Giant Chicken. Or Buddha. Take your pick.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3193675
I dont think she is talking about some of the more legal stuff. The messiah is the difference, all the other stuff, such as no longer calling god creation unclean is a result of the messiah.
I think she was pretty clear. When you bold/underline/italic something, it's pretty all-inclusive.
Originally Posted by Flower

http:///forum/post/3193657
Original Christianity is and was Judaism. The ONLY
difference is that they believed Messiah had come.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193682
Honestly man, I don't get this at all. How does a virus prove evolution? I could just as easily say that it was God who designed HIV to be immune to antibiotics. Or the Great Giant Chicken. Or Buddha. Take your pick.
Trying to mock evolution wont make it any less true.
Ok fine then how bout finches of the glapagos islands. Depending on the environment finches evolve different size, and shaped beaks corresponding with the plants that thrives in the environment. A long beak finch might have a mutation in its offspring genome causing it to have a short beak. Now if the short beak proves to be more useful than a long beak, the short beak will thrive and pass down this mutation and the long beak will die off. Illustrating evolution and natural selection in a small population.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member

Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193679
You can certainly classify religion as a large cult, because religion gains support form the masses, whom dont challenge the belief,
and live by the laws,set by the higher up, without hesitation.
Dude, I literally laughed out loud at this one. You think it's all blind following? Look at what I'm doing right now. How is my faith not being challenged in this thread? Or Flowers? We're sharing information and knowledge, bouncing thoughts and ideas off each other. To say that we're blind to our faith is incorrect. I know a lot about my faith - I've had to defend it plenty of times.
I think a good Christian is one that always challenges their own faith. There's really no such thing as "treading water" when it comes to faith - you're either getting stronger or weaker... whether you like it or not.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193688
Trying to mock evolution wont make it any less true.
Ok fine then how bout finches of the glapagos islands. Depending on the environment finches evolve different size, and shaped beaks corresponding with the plants that thrives in the environment. A long beak finch might have a mutation in its offspring genome causing it to have a short beak. Now if the short beak proves to be more useful than a long beak, the short beak will thrive and pass down this mutation and the long beak will die off. Illustrating evolution and natural selection in a small population.
Are you kidding??? Galapagos? Dude that was disproven LONG ago. The birds would die off as the seasons changed. Go there in the winter months. you'll see birds with one shaped beak. Go there in the summer months. You'll see the birds with the other shape. How do you think Darwin had drawings of both beaks? And I'm the blind one?
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193688
Trying to mock evolution wont make it any less true.
Ok fine then how bout finches of the glapagos islands. Depending on the environment finches evolve different size, and shaped beaks corresponding with the plants that thrives in the environment. A long beak finch might have a mutation in its offspring genome causing it to have a short beak. Now if the short beak proves to be more useful than a long beak, the short beak will thrive and pass down this mutation and the long beak will die off. Illustrating evolution and natural selection in a small population.

Evolution and Christianity don't have to be at odds. I don't buy that man crawled out of the same pool of ooze the rest of the life on our planet did because no one to date has ever been able to explain why we would have evolved so much differently than the rest of the species.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193692
Are you kidding??? Galapagos? Dude that was disproven LONG ago. The birds would die off as the seasons changed. Go there in the winter months. you'll see birds with one shaped beak. Go there in the summer months. You'll see the birds with the other shape. How do you think Darwin had drawings of both beaks? And I'm the blind one?
Find me something that disproves it, and i know you wont because their is nothing. Their is still research being conducted on the finches today.
And do you honestly think that finches would go their each specific month to just eat???? if anythign a finch would fly miles to a breeding ground but never for a small feast.
You can also take a glapagos turtle, where else do you see such large turtles with very little protection? no where. do you know why? Its because the turtle evolve a high raised shell, and larger to eat higher branches, and in doing so the high shell and large physique made it more vunerable to predetors, however on the galapagos islands their are no predetors to the galapagos turtle.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3193695
Evolution and Christianity don't have to be at odds. I don't buy that man crawled out of the same pool of ooze the rest of the life on our planet did because no one to date has ever been able to explain why we would have evolved so much differently than the rest of the species.
We evolved so much differently through mutations that made us better suited to the environment than others. Evolutions basic concept is a mistake that gone right.
Some origanisms took a different road than us because different mutations allowed them to be better suited for a certain food group, environments, and activities. No one can explain exactly why we are humans and not apes, other than we drew the lucky straw in the evolution melting pot that required us to be bi pedal and more intellegant rather than strong and quad pedal.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193679
Religion vary in how they are practiced because they each interpret the bible nt and etc differently from one another.
You can certainly classify religion as a large cult, because religion gains support form the masses, whom dont challenge the belief, and live by the laws,set by the higher up, without hesitation. Cults are not neccessarily groups with evil intentions, a cults is nothing more than a group of people who follow the ruling of a single powerful member (in this case the bible ).
to support this look back in the old middle ages, kings and other leaders would frequently "revise" the ot and bible and etc stories to better serve the purpose and gain undying loyalty by the public.
Well, depending on who is doing the defining, what I consider a cult is a sect that has one leader who says who goes to the whatever they're calling heaven.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3193689
Dude, I literally laughed out loud at this one. You think it's all blind following? Look at what I'm doing right now. How is my faith not being challenged in this thread? Or Flowers? We're sharing information and knowledge, bouncing thoughts and ideas off each other. To say that we're blind to our faith is incorrect. I know a lot about my faith - I've had to defend it plenty of times.
I think a good Christian is one that always challenges their own faith. There's really no such thing as "treading water" when it comes to faith - you're either getting stronger or weaker... whether you like it or not.
by chalenge the belief i mean do u go up to your preacher, rabbi pastor, or etc and say I THINK THIS IS WRONG. Thats challenging the belief.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193705
by chalenge the belief i mean do u go up to your preacher, rabbi pastor, or etc and say I THINK THIS IS WRONG. Thats challenging the belief.
Yes, we do that. It has to happen so we can search for what is right. And we usually do. But some questions can never be answered.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3193703
Well, depending on who is doing the defining, what I consider a cult is a sect that has one leader who says who goes to the whatever they're calling heaven.
the bible says sinners to hell non sinners to heaven (summarized XD)
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193698
Find me something that disproves it, and i know you wont because their is nothing.

DNA disagrees with Darwin
Darwin accepted homology and morphology, believing common origins would be evident from similar body traits.
The idea is that a man has a head, arms and legs and an ape has a head, arms and legs, so that shows similar ancestry and, therefore, a common lineage. That was one of the fundamental bases of Darwinian thinking that came from the Galapagos.
However, even evolutionists don't believe that anymore because DNA has proven it's utterly false.
We have eyeballs with retinas and rods and corneas, but so do giant squid – just like humans. Nobody thinks we came from the same common lineage. Creationists argue that it's because we have a common Designer, not a common evolutionary ancestry.
Another concept that came from Darwin's Galapagos adventure was Lamarckism, something Phillips said is "the cornerstone of evolutionary thinking."
The concept is, for example, if a giraffe stretches its neck, builds its neck muscles and develops a longer neck, it will pass on that trait to baby giraffes. Their necks are expected to be a little bit longer and stronger because of the practices of the parents. Lamarckism is the laughingstock of the scientific community because if I run a marathon and develop strong leg muscles and excellent cardio, does that mean my children will benefit from that? Absolutely not. That's ridiculous.
We know that now because we understand genetics, and Darwin didn't have access to genetics.
Darwin also believed scientists would inevitably see transitional forms in the fossil record.
We would see fossil examples of animals going from one kind to another. It's our contention that not one transitional form has ever been found."
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