Private Schools and evolutionary theory

pezenfuego

pezenfuego

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/100#post_3531486

Admittedly, and obvious to all who know me.... I'm no brainiac. It doesn't matter to me how everything became what it is, I am convinced 100% that God did it, and anything the scientists decide on for the time being to be how it all took place, doesn't nullify the creation of them. I only have a pet peeve, (for lack of a better term) with folks who think that if they have science, it will somehow nullify the fact that there is a God who made it. Yes I said FACT.... the creation account in the books, are for each to interpret and consider, just as evolution and different facts are there for us to examine and think about. However, just like gravity and the air you breath, it's still there whether you can see it or not.
I don't agree with exactly what you said (I'm an atheist) but I do strongly agree with the general premise. Science does not, cannot, and will not disprove God. Attempting to educate youth properly is important, but attempting to take away their God is unacceptable. And some people have that objective, which is terrible. In this case however, it is my opinion that properly teaching them about evolution does not nullify what they have learned about creation. I'll learn about creation, you can learn about evolution and we can both think critically about it. If we end up with different conclusions afterward, then so be it. It doesn't matter a bit to me if that's your belief. If you enjoy that worldview, then I think it is fantastic that you believe it. But please do not take measures to be ignorant (this is not a statement directed at Flower, but to a general audience).

PEZ (with love) enfuego
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531496
I don't agree with exactly what you said (I'm an atheist) but I do strongly agree with the general premise. Science does not, cannot, and will not disprove God. Attempting to educate youth properly is important, but attempting to take away their God is unacceptable. And some people have that objective, which is terrible. In this case however, it is my opinion that properly teaching them about evolution does not nullify what they have learned about creation. I'll learn about creation, you can learn about evolution and we can both think critically about it. If we end up with different conclusions afterward, then so be it. It doesn't matter a bit to me if that's your belief. If you enjoy that worldview, then I think it is fantastic that you believe it. But please do not take measures to be ignorant (this is not a statement directed at Flower, but to a general audience).

PEZ (with love) enfuego

We have so many people who unfortunately do just that. They want their children to only learn what they believe. They don't want their kids to have sex education, and they don't want them to be able to get their hands on free condoms to prevent teen pregnancies, no teaching evolution, and they won't even let them watch Teletubbies (the symbol on the purple one head means it's gay...LOL, I spit my coffee out at that one). We can only be responsible to teach our own kids. I don't fret over it too much, unless a child is reared in a desert someplace, eventually their children will get some drift of the forbidden info, and learn about it anyway.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/100#post_3531486
I only have a pet peeve, (for lack of a better term) with folks who think that if they have science, it will somehow nullify the fact that there is a God who made it. Yes I said FACT.... the creation account in the books, are for each to interpret and consider, just as evolution and different facts are there for us to examine and think about. However, just like gravity and the air you breath, it's still there whether you can see it or not.
Its not that science tries to nullify faith in God, it is that science does say outright that the creation interpretation written in the Christian Bible, and presumably is similar to the creation concepts in Judaism, is not correct. Man did not come from dust, women did not come from a rib, the world was not created in 6 days, etc. That is where science and faith diverge. I don't think you will ever see anywhere in science that says God did not create (doesn't say he did either). There is no facts to prove God exists so it is a spiritual belief not a scientific fact. Also, conversely, creationists outright deny evolution based solely on their faith in what is written in ancient texts. Just as GeriDoc's student said, s/he believes in creation as stated in the Bible ( therefore everything taught in the class is false--essentially nullified) for her/him.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/100#post_3531456

...

. My point was that there does not exist a scientific proof which uses no assumptions.


...
All proofs require underlying assumptions. religious and scientific. Plus whatever logic system you choose to use.

So you point is meaningless.

What I important is to recognize the underlying assumptions. Which be definition are never "proven".
 
pezenfuego

pezenfuego

Active Member
All proofs require underlying assumptions.  religious and scientific.  Plus whatever logic system you choose to use.
So you point is meaningless.
What I important is to recognize the underlying assumptions.  Which be definition are never "proven".
It is almost like we agree, but you felt the need to dissent. What exactly is it that you don't agree with me on?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
I blame George W Obama :)

I see nothing wrong with teachers discussing what different religions teach regarding creation as part of the scientific discussion. But how dare we encourage children to think rather than teach them what to think.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531526
I blame George W Obama :)

I see nothing wrong with teachers discussing what different religions teach regarding creation as part of the scientific discussion. But how dare we encourage children to think rather than teach them what to think.

Exactly which religions would be discussed? Judeo-Christian only (actually a minority opinion, or would religions such as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (see here) qualify for the discussion? That said, I actually see nothing wrong with discussing comparative religions and their worldviews, but it should be in a theology class clearly denoted as such. American students are already behind in the sciences, so taking time from science classes to discuss non-science matters would be a big mistake IMHO.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531529

Exactly which religions would be discussed? Judeo-Christian only (actually a minority opinion, or would religions such as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (see here) qualify for the discussion? That said, I actually see nothing wrong with discussing comparative religions and their worldviews, but it should be in a theology class clearly denoted as such. American students are already behind in the sciences, so taking time from science classes to discuss non-science matters would be a big mistake IMHO.

Hah, I just had to look at that dang website. Thanks Doc. LOL



I think ReefRaff was making fun of something else...

Religion should be taught in a religion/philosophy/theology class in private schools... I don't think that a religious discussion should break out in Science class or any other class, and I don't feel like things that a teacher doesn't know should be explained away by "God did it because he wanted to."

How dare we try to teach students how to think, rather then what to think! That's absurd!
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531526
I see nothing wrong with teachers discussing what different religions teach regarding creation as part of the scientific discussion. But how dare we encourage children to think rather than teach them what to think.
In a religious philosophy course, yes, NOT in a science course.

If I were a parent with a child in the classroom that Snake is observing and found out what was being taught, I would have a royal fit! Of course, if you send your kid to such a school, presumably that is what you want your kid to learn. So be it for them, but not for my kid.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
How far gone we are from what our nations forefathers and founders taught us. Did you guys know that the majority of our founders did not follow the idea of a separation of church and state? Although this is what is being taught in universities around the country today. And that the teachings of god was necessary to develop the moral character needed to obtain, liberty, justice and prosperity? They were trying to spread Christianity. The Aitken Bible was the first bible in the nation that was translated into English, funded by numerous signers of the Declaration of Independence and distributed by congress.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531529

Exactly which religions would be discussed? Judeo-Christian only (actually a minority opinion, or would religions such as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (see here) qualify for the discussion? That said, I actually see nothing wrong with discussing comparative religions and their worldviews, but it should be in a theology class clearly denoted as such. American students are already behind in the sciences, so taking time from science classes to discuss non-science matters would be a big mistake IMHO.

You really wouldn't need to be specific. Most of the major religions believe in creationism of some sort. I don't think taking maybe a whole 5 minutes if even that to mention how religions try to explain it is going to make the kiddies less educated.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531539
In a religious philosophy course, yes, NOT in a science course.

If I were a parent with a child in the classroom that Snake is observing and found out what was being taught, I would have a royal fit! Of course, if you send your kid to such a school, presumably that is what you want your kid to learn. So be it for them, but not for my kid.
I did what I could to make sure my kid heard all points of view. To be honest I couldn't tell you what he believes on the subject.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531530

Hah, I just had to look at that dang website. Thanks Doc. LOL



I think ReefRaff was making fun of something else...

Religion should be taught in a religion/philosophy/theology class in private schools... I don't think that a religious discussion should break out in Science class or any other class, and I don't feel like things that a teacher doesn't know should be explained away by "God did it because he wanted to."

How dare we try to teach students how to think, rather then what to think! That's absurd!

Mentioning how religions try to explain the formation of the universe is hardly religious instruction.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Some belief systems of some Indian tribes explain the Earth as a giant wise Turtle and we are living on it's back, floating through space and time... Do you want those beliefs taught to your kids in a SCIENCE classroom? That the Earth is a giant turtle, when, through science, we know it is not?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
No but when science comes into conflict with what a significant portion of the students believe I think it's well worth it to take a few minutes to touch on the subject even if it's a matter of mentioning how a few different religions explain it and end the conversation with "But that's a discussion for a ________ class, we are here to discuss what science points to".
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
How far gone we are from what our nations forefathers and founders taught us.  Did you guys know that the majority of our founders did not follow the idea of a separation of church and state? Although this is what is being taught in universities around the country today. And that the teachings of god was necessary to develop the moral character needed to obtain, liberty, justice and prosperity?  They were trying to spread Christianity.  The Aitken Bible was the first bible in the nation that was translated into English, funded by numerous signers of the Declaration of Independence and distributed by congress. 
Actually, your statement contains several common misconceptions. The consensus of most historians is that the core founding fathers believed that religion was an intensely personal thing in which the government had no role. They believed this so firmly that they amended the Constitution to keep the government out of religious indoctrination. At a personal level it is pretty clear that several of them weren't even Christian. Do some reading in history, don't believe what you hear.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geri Doc http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531555
Actually, your statement contains several common misconceptions. The consensus of most historians is that the core founding fathers believed that religion was an intensely personal thing in which the government had no role. They believed this so firmly that they amended the Constitution to keep the government out of religious indoctrination. At a personal level it is pretty clear that several of them weren't even Christian. Do some reading in history, don't believe what you hear.

I don't feel that the consensus of today is entirely accurate. There was a clear divergence separating the government from god after the founding of the country but I don't believe that it was an intended part of a 500 year plan that our forefathers had for their little experiment in freedom. To understand where we are today we need to go back to the Purist movement that began in, England where religious freedom was being suppressed by a tyrannical king. A time when a commoner could be burned for possessing a bible. The idea was to escape Tyranny to a place where religious freedom would prosper so that they could come back and free the oppressed. It was a progressive movement. And these are the folks that layed the ground work for the building of our nation.


BTW, Geri if the core of our founding fathers believed so much that god had no role in government than how do you explain the Aitken bible which was approved by congress?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531543
How far gone we are from what our nations forefathers and founders taught us. Did you guys know that the majority of our founders did not follow the idea of a separation of church and state? Although this is what is being taught in universities around the country today. And that the teachings of god was necessary to develop the moral character needed to obtain, liberty, justice and prosperity? They were trying to spread Christianity. The Aitken Bible was the first bible in the nation that was translated into English, funded by numerous signers of the Declaration of Independence and distributed by congress.
First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....

The founding fathers were not trying to spread Christianity, many prominent founding fathers were desists not Christians, including Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence.

Quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.
Thomas Jefferson
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top