Put up or shut up!
- Thread starter nm reef
- Start date
dburr
Active Member
Great job. I like this, put up or shut up.
I have a few comments.
Going cheap: Three ways of going cheap; 1: just down right going cheap, tap water, no filters, ECT
2: Copying expensive equiptment, AKA, DIY.
3: Buy used.
I DIY'ed my canopy. $60 in wood and $100 for used halide complete setup. A few more dollars in endcaps for atinics. I could have paid $600 for it new.
Alot of my stuff is DIY and used. It also runs by itself when I go on my 2 week vacations. No worries.
her's my put up, 90 gallon allglass RR. setup in june when I broke down the 100. DSB, 55 gallon refuge/sump with a magdrive 950. I can't post a pic of the sump because it's covered in coraline.:yes:
But it has Cheato, prloifera, grape and teacup. RO/DI for water, DIY auto top off, b-ionic daily. 175 MH w/ 32 w atinics. 20X turnover with 3 other pumps. 110 gallons volume and about 120# of rock, some I made.
I have a few comments.
Going cheap: Three ways of going cheap; 1: just down right going cheap, tap water, no filters, ECT
2: Copying expensive equiptment, AKA, DIY.
3: Buy used.
I DIY'ed my canopy. $60 in wood and $100 for used halide complete setup. A few more dollars in endcaps for atinics. I could have paid $600 for it new.
Alot of my stuff is DIY and used. It also runs by itself when I go on my 2 week vacations. No worries.
her's my put up, 90 gallon allglass RR. setup in june when I broke down the 100. DSB, 55 gallon refuge/sump with a magdrive 950. I can't post a pic of the sump because it's covered in coraline.:yes:
nm reef
Active Member
More sweet looking systems....more actual experiences with tried and proven methods...but ...hmmmmmmmm...I'm not seeing much in the way of tap water and macros in the display...I'm sure they are out there...must be according to BB_BS.
I know they are out there...I have seen them....but BB_BS...show us what you so readily offer advice about.....post the results of your often preached sermons. I know full well that there are numerous methods used to establish and maintain reefs....and all of them have success...but statements you make and advice you offer is contradictory to the majority of the experience and info I see...so again...like those of us that have "put up"....show us!!!! We wanna see the results of the methods you offer...we wanna know if the systems shown here can be radically improved upon by using untreated tap water and encouraging excessive growth of plant life....using unconventional types of substrates and rocks.....its a simple proposition....show us......or...well you know the final line there!!!!!:thinking:
I know they are out there...I have seen them....but BB_BS...show us what you so readily offer advice about.....post the results of your often preached sermons. I know full well that there are numerous methods used to establish and maintain reefs....and all of them have success...but statements you make and advice you offer is contradictory to the majority of the experience and info I see...so again...like those of us that have "put up"....show us!!!! We wanna see the results of the methods you offer...we wanna know if the systems shown here can be radically improved upon by using untreated tap water and encouraging excessive growth of plant life....using unconventional types of substrates and rocks.....its a simple proposition....show us......or...well you know the final line there!!!!!:thinking:
neoreef
Member
Bob, I think what is called for here is a recent and in-focus picture of your display. The one picture is so out of focus, it is hard to tell what it is.
It is hard to believe that you are so proud of your tank, but will not post a clear picture.
PS. No one on this board has ever claimed that this is an inexpensive hobby. No one who has ever seen a beautiful, healthy reef tank would think that it could be had for little or no money. It is hard to imagine that any parent would be fooled.
The goal, IMO, is not to see how little we can spend.
The goal for most of us is to see if we can establish a healthy and beautiful tank. Spending money to accomplish that is something we all do, more or less, depending on our budgets.
Those of us with tanks we are happy with, don't care how much it cost to get there. IT IS WORTH IT!
Just my 2 cents.
It is hard to believe that you are so proud of your tank, but will not post a clear picture.
PS. No one on this board has ever claimed that this is an inexpensive hobby. No one who has ever seen a beautiful, healthy reef tank would think that it could be had for little or no money. It is hard to imagine that any parent would be fooled.
The goal, IMO, is not to see how little we can spend.
The goal for most of us is to see if we can establish a healthy and beautiful tank. Spending money to accomplish that is something we all do, more or less, depending on our budgets.
Those of us with tanks we are happy with, don't care how much it cost to get there. IT IS WORTH IT!
Just my 2 cents.
rwhite
Member
Agreed. And, BTW, "parent" is the perfect word. Its like everyday after work, the first thing I check on is my "children"(the reef) and the dog. If they're okay, then we can relax.
We want pics! We want pics! We want pics! (maybe I can start a "wave" too)
Heck, I just want to see everybodys tanks! Wouldnt that be fun!
We want pics! We want pics! We want pics! (maybe I can start a "wave" too)
Heck, I just want to see everybodys tanks! Wouldnt that be fun!
smickied
Member
I am noob to the reefing world, and have learned the hard way about buying cheep.
I started with:
28 Bow
skilter 400
aqua clear 200
coralife 65 watt x 2
shallow sand bed
And the DREADED TAP WATER
2 440 power heads
I am slowly tring to up grade all my equipment, and its expensive!! Used is great, but if you buy used and it breaks acouple months down the road your in the same spot but costing more.
I have cyano breack outs every couple weeks in the sand and pick it out, I agree that probely 90% of it is the tap water, but i can't afford a RO unit and nun of the LFS sell it buy buckets.
I installed an Fluval 304 in addition and it seems to help.
I've had live stock issues (thinking their reef safe and not) listened to LFS (mistake) and recieved missinfo from this site (take it with a grain of salt).
It's all been a learning experence and this web site have helped me out alot, but like its been said a million times research it 10 times if your going to once and then more for good luck. I've learned this the hard way.
I don't respond alot to threads as do other members (some good,some bad) but I do try to share my experences to guide others, and to my point If you can't back it up don't put it out.
I have a lot of respect for NM reef and Bang and would really like to thank you for your dedication, and this site can't afford to lose GOOD sources of information because of others veiws.
Its not the greatest, but it gives me pleasure and it is mine!
I started with:
28 Bow
skilter 400
aqua clear 200
coralife 65 watt x 2
shallow sand bed
And the DREADED TAP WATER
2 440 power heads
I am slowly tring to up grade all my equipment, and its expensive!! Used is great, but if you buy used and it breaks acouple months down the road your in the same spot but costing more.
I have cyano breack outs every couple weeks in the sand and pick it out, I agree that probely 90% of it is the tap water, but i can't afford a RO unit and nun of the LFS sell it buy buckets.
I installed an Fluval 304 in addition and it seems to help.
I've had live stock issues (thinking their reef safe and not) listened to LFS (mistake) and recieved missinfo from this site (take it with a grain of salt).
It's all been a learning experence and this web site have helped me out alot, but like its been said a million times research it 10 times if your going to once and then more for good luck. I've learned this the hard way.
I don't respond alot to threads as do other members (some good,some bad) but I do try to share my experences to guide others, and to my point If you can't back it up don't put it out.
I have a lot of respect for NM reef and Bang and would really like to thank you for your dedication, and this site can't afford to lose GOOD sources of information because of others veiws.
Its not the greatest, but it gives me pleasure and it is mine!
neoreef
Member
I think it looks great! You can get RO/DI from the grocery store or wallmart. Look at the label on "drinking water". I got some when I went on vacation, because I failed to stock up on lab water before my vacation. It came in these neat carboys! No more hauling milk jugs to and from work!
Again, nice tank!
Again, nice tank!
birdy
Active Member
Here is my tank, set up for almost 4months. Water is only RO/DI, water changes are performed bi-monthly, lighting is 250w MH 10k ushio, and 2x 95w VHO super actinic URI. topoffs are performed with kalkwasser dripped 24/7 by means of a dosing pump. When finished it will be mainly sps, with a few choice LPS and clams. filtration is 90lbs of LR, 4"DSB, sump with protein skimmer and small refugium. If I was forced to give one aspect of my tank up, it would be the fuge with macro's. I like them and they are a great asset, but I think I could run the tank just as succesfully without them.
giraffemaster
Member
My dad has kept fish since he was a child. He is very intelligent and reads anything about fish he can find. Before I showed him that saltwater fish and corals could be kept, we bred angelfish together. He stopped using TAP WATER for his freshwater fishtank a long time ago. I don't understand how anyone could use tap water and keep the corals and invertebrates that are so delicate. Also, I will cite the fact that I had some slime algae a few weeks ago, and after I changed my prefilters for my RO unit the slime algae went away. Coincidence? Not on your life. I have had a refugium for 2 years and I love it.
Tap water=:nope:
RO water=
my anemone splitting last weekend
Tap water=:nope:
RO water=
my anemone splitting last weekend
steveweast
Member
Now this is an interesting thread that I have found myself in. It has always been my personal policy never to tell someone how to set up a reef....but, I will offer my personal beliefs when asked ( especially since they are contrary to some of the conventional wisdom).... here are some of my thoughts...
1) the success of a reef can be directly related to how well an aquarists can remove phosphate. I feel that phosphate is the number one problem that we face...
2) control phosphate by manually removing detritus...through frequent sand stirring and vacuuming. I stir/vacuum weekly and as a result, my entire volume of sand (which isn't much) is replaced every four to five months.
3) DSB's are ticking time bombs that will eventually crash the tank. Sand is something that should be minimally used and only for aesthic purposes. My sand is only an inch deep.... and only in visable areas... none is under any rocks where it can trap detritus. I also have strong circulation under my rocks to blow out detritus.
4) strong circulation is a must to keep detritus afloat where it can be removed by overflows and skimmers. My tank has about a 35 times tank volume turnover per hour rate.
5) I also use a large amount of phosphate removing media in a fluidize reactor which will out-compete all bacterias and algaes for phosphate.
6) refugiums are inefficient at removing phosphate. The cultivation and subsequent harvesting of macro algae is horribly inefficient compared to phosphate removing media.
7) never use phyto. It's liquid phosphate in a bottle.
8) I could care a less about pod populations.... these populations are directly proportional to available food... lots of pods means a probable high nutrient system.
9) Skim heavily....you can't skim enough... in spite of what some "experts" on other boards might say...who, by the way, have mediocre looking reefs.
So, in summary, my philosophy is to remove wastes (through various methods) before they break down into other pollutants. I don't believe that they can be processed sucessfully...ie DSB's. The only other thing that I do is try to minimize adding phosphate by soaking all foods in RO water before feeding (the RO water will leach out a surprising amount of phosphate) and I always test any medias for phoshate leaching before they are used (ie. carbon). This may sound like alot of work....but, my system is completely automated...all I do is stir/vacuum the sand once a week and feed the fish every other day. AGAIN... this is just my opinion...I won't tell folks what to do...I will only say what I do.
1) the success of a reef can be directly related to how well an aquarists can remove phosphate. I feel that phosphate is the number one problem that we face...
2) control phosphate by manually removing detritus...through frequent sand stirring and vacuuming. I stir/vacuum weekly and as a result, my entire volume of sand (which isn't much) is replaced every four to five months.
3) DSB's are ticking time bombs that will eventually crash the tank. Sand is something that should be minimally used and only for aesthic purposes. My sand is only an inch deep.... and only in visable areas... none is under any rocks where it can trap detritus. I also have strong circulation under my rocks to blow out detritus.
4) strong circulation is a must to keep detritus afloat where it can be removed by overflows and skimmers. My tank has about a 35 times tank volume turnover per hour rate.
5) I also use a large amount of phosphate removing media in a fluidize reactor which will out-compete all bacterias and algaes for phosphate.
6) refugiums are inefficient at removing phosphate. The cultivation and subsequent harvesting of macro algae is horribly inefficient compared to phosphate removing media.
7) never use phyto. It's liquid phosphate in a bottle.
8) I could care a less about pod populations.... these populations are directly proportional to available food... lots of pods means a probable high nutrient system.
9) Skim heavily....you can't skim enough... in spite of what some "experts" on other boards might say...who, by the way, have mediocre looking reefs.
So, in summary, my philosophy is to remove wastes (through various methods) before they break down into other pollutants. I don't believe that they can be processed sucessfully...ie DSB's. The only other thing that I do is try to minimize adding phosphate by soaking all foods in RO water before feeding (the RO water will leach out a surprising amount of phosphate) and I always test any medias for phoshate leaching before they are used (ie. carbon). This may sound like alot of work....but, my system is completely automated...all I do is stir/vacuum the sand once a week and feed the fish every other day. AGAIN... this is just my opinion...I won't tell folks what to do...I will only say what I do.
schneidts
Active Member
Right On, NM, Right On!! This is an excellent thread!! Thank you for tackling this head on- so courteously, intelligently, and persistantly. This doubletalking, gameplaying, truthtwisting has got to stop. Maybe a long thought out sticky could be posted in the new hobbiest forum, explaining all the downfalls from tap water and etc...I think maybe the same "can I use tap water?" questions are feeding the problem.
nymatty
New Member
im a noob myself(only second post). i am about to set up my 55gal reef and have read a few things in the new hobbyist forum about this subject. from what i have seen about 2 out of every 10 posts recommend using tap water with one of them being bb and al the others ro/di. this is y i pay attention to who posts the replies and what systems suggest which and therefore i am currently on the market for buying a ro/di unit
tanksalot
Member
Before I found this site I took the lfs advice and diddnt think twice. After reading many posts. (I read more than I post) I must say thanks to all who have helped me, now these are not the best of pics, or the best tank but thanks to all of you it is getting better every month. Note: the cc is slowly being removed to be replaced with sand. A skimmers is now being used. and tap water no longer enters this tank. If I found this site when I started I can only dream of what my tank would look like.
steveweast
Member
Phosphate is what is limiting in our reefs. If you control the phosphate (which inhibits coral growth) to the levels found in the ocean, your corals wil thrive. We can easily measure inorganic phosphate in our tanks.... but, most of the phosphate is locked up organically...ie...detritus,plants corals,fish,bacteria...etc. When any of these die (and bacteria dies and regenerates every 12 hours), there is a large amount of "inorganic" phosphate that is released back into the water column for all to feast on (bacteria,algaes, etc.). It is this reason that your water can test zero for phosphates, but, you still have a hair algae problem.... the huge amounts of phosphate are just temporarily "locked" up. Now this is where a phosphate reactor comes into play....the reactor is always locking up the phosphate as are the algaes...only the reactor takes it out of the system permanetly. When phosphate enters the system....sometimes the algae will get it and sometimes the reactor will get it...but, in the end, the reactor wins. Refugiums operate on a similar basis (harvest the macro and you remove phosphate)...but, it would take a huge refugium to be as efficient as the media.
The only phosphate reactor media that should be used is an iron based media. There are currently two on the market...Rowaphos and Phosban... I use Rowaphos. The iron based medias are most efficiently used in a fluidized reactor. Here's mine... it's the one on the right.
The only phosphate reactor media that should be used is an iron based media. There are currently two on the market...Rowaphos and Phosban... I use Rowaphos. The iron based medias are most efficiently used in a fluidized reactor. Here's mine... it's the one on the right.
