Python ban

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3186748
The disease would be passed to whatever they get their mouths on and are unable to successfully eat.
No, it wouldn't. Snakes are cold blooded...mammals are warm blooded. Disease, virus, etc. won't pass between the two. Sorry.
Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3186748
If these snakes are not indigenous, where did they come from? They started out as pets, were released, allowed to breed outside captivity.
The majority of this wild population were escapees, after Hurricane Andrew, in the early 90s. A very minute portion of this population are pet releases. Not saying there aren't any, because I'm sure there are, but maybe a 1% percentage.
Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3186748
A microchip program is a great start...however they need to make sure that the penalties for breaking the law are stiff enough to discourage owners from doing so (stiff fines and inability to legally own another).
I whole heartedly agree.
Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3186748
The problem with this is that, just as with many other things, there are ways around this. Whenever we develop a new mousetrap, mice get smarter and learn to escape them...so do criminals. I think that this is one of the reasons that they are pushing to ban them altogether...I don't 100% agree with this, but something needs to be done.
There have been more people killed by dogs and horses, in the past year, than there have been people killed by pythons, in the past 20 years. Why punish EVERYONE, when it's only a few irresponsible owners? Should be we ban all dogs and horses? While we're at it, let's ban anything that can kill a human...cars, electricity, hot water...
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3186749
Is that not the very purpose of Government?
Ummm...no. Anyone who has ever taken a high school History class knows that. Especially when it comes to revoking rights of it's people, for no logical reason.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/3186766
Ummm...no. Anyone who has ever taken a high school History class knows that.
No one who has taken a high school history class knows anything about history.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it, the purpose of government is to maintain a societal structure. In order to do that it (said government) has to have the power to tell its subjects: no.
If Government does not have the power to enforce, then ummmm, please define the GOVERN part of the word???
Especially when it comes to revoking rights of it's people, for no logical reason.
So, if there's a "logical" reason, gov't can revoke the rights of its people?

 

[renogaw]

unfortunately, this is probably the same people who tried to get congress to ban all nonnative animals, stemming from snakes but leading to our aquarium industry.

 

[browniebuck]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/3186766
The majority of this wild population were escapees, after Hurricane Andrew, in the early 90s. A very minute portion of this population are pet releases. Not saying there aren't any, because I'm sure there are, but maybe a 1% percentage.
If you believe that only 1% of the pythons that are in the wild are from pet releases, then you can't be reasoned with. I personally witnessed a person releasing a large snake on one of my 2 trips to Florida (on Sanibel Island). I am not saying that this is an everyday occurrence, but to say that the percentage was 1%...with what facts to back that up....in the words of Keyshawn Johnson on ESPN...COME ON MAN!!!

 

[flower]

Snakes are not loved by the majority of people. So any problem will be met with “ban them”. Therefore people who want to keep exotic pets NEED to be very responsible, more so than a dog or cat person.
When I was girl my grandmother kept a Spider Monkey, and at one time a pet skunk…neither are permitted to be kept as pets now. I don’t think the ban was a bad thing, skunks carry rabies and can’t be vaccinated for it, and monkeys, well they are just too smart to be a pet and go crazy when they mature.
Let’s face it, a well cared for python pet will eventually get large enough to be a danger to children. They never develop a bond to humans, a tolerance perhaps but they don’t love and cuddle. Improperly handled and it can become a danger, even to its owner.
Even one that gets released, or has escaped for any reason, is too many.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3186695
The release of these snakes puts a dangerous animal in the wild, there is potential for disease that could be spread to other indigenous animals, indigenous animals will have to compete with them for food and shelter which could lead to the extinction of native species, and they are used to looking towards humans for food.

Oh, kinda like horses, pigs, and cattle when they were brought to america? Not to mention, ferns, thistles, nettles, and plantain all came to the United States from European countries.That just caused huge ecological problems to the region.......Some people worry about the wrong crap.

 

[engine_24]

I definitely think there should be some sort of regulations put in place. I don't know how many of you have been to a reptile show, but the main attraction is snakes, and the Burm and Retic (which are among the biggest) are very popular. It is not uncommon to see unique variations of these snakes sell for anywhere between $2,000-$5,000 for an 18" baby. I have personally seen a Green Tree Python for sale at a Dulles Expo Center Reptile Show for $100,000. Ludicrous, I know, but the idea is that you breed it, and sell of the babies and make your initial investment back over time. What bothers me at these shows is that I see 15 year olds buying baby Burmese pythons simply because they look good and in many instances are cheap ( like $30.00 for a snake that is 18" and will become 18' in a few years). Irresponsible breeders are as much to blame as irresponsible owners. They should know better than to sell an animal of such to some stupid kid. And some of the vendors will lie just to sell them. For example, I wanted to see the answer I would get, so I played dumb and asked a vendor what size enclosure I would need for a baby female Albino Burmese python (which can get 20' or so and exceed 200lbs). His reply was "a 75 gallon would do fine." This was clearly an attempt to get a quick sale, as such an animal would require at least a 8'X4' enclosure. I like the reptile industry allot, but oftentimes consumers are not properly educated as to what they are getting themselves into, and some (not all) vendors know that, and take advantage of that. It's not fair to the animals either.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by DragonZim
http:///forum/post/3186660
Yeah, sorry man, the right to bear pythons is nowhere in the constitution. Again, I am not in favor of an all out ban. I do think licensing is a good idea, but there is no way in hell that this can be considered unconstitutional.
I'm going to jump in on this one.
First, quite right, I didn't see the word python anywhere in the constitution last time I looked. However, I ask myself why the federal government has to get involved. I guess it is a constitutional issue insofar that the constitution dictates the behavior and "reach" of the federal government, and I don't see where the constitution gives the federal government the authority to govern this sort of thing. I agree with the OP by suggesting that this is unconstitutional - but under the 10th amendment - but it seems like our governement largely ignores this one anyway.
On another note... in this issue with this little girl that died... this was an animal that was owned by someone in that household, correct? Am I remembering this correctly? An "escaped" python did not wander in off the street... right? Why do we need a whole law - a federal one no less - when we know whose snake it was and can deal with them? Sounds to me like another instance of the "nanny state."
A thought I had... I know nothing about reptiles so someone chime in on this... in the case of snakes, is it possible to require microchipping them the same way that we microchip dogs or cats, so if an escaped animal did something, it could be traced back to it's original owner? Rest assured I'm not a fan of this like any other similar program (read: gun registration), but is it technically possible?

 

[browniebuck]

Horses actually originated from what is now North America...making them actually native species.
http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...ld-horses.html
Pigs and cattle were brought to North America to be raised for food...I don't see a huge number of irresponsible owners releasing cattle or pigs in our country...they become...DINNER!
Plant species are a whole different discussion...but if they aren't properly cared for, they too can become nuisances (but most simply end up dying).
These snakes are being brought here to be pets...FINE...if you are able to correctly care for them. This is why regulations need to be set...in order to make sure that one of my 10 year old students can't go to a pet store and purchase one of these critters to take home and put into their 10 gallon aquarium (has happened in the past 3 years). The breeders of these snakes are just as much to blame...they are selling these snakes to people that have no worry about whether or not the animal will be properly cared for, they are in it to make a buck.

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3187202
I'm going to jump in on this one.
First, quite right, I didn't see the word python anywhere in the constitution last time I looked. However, I ask myself why the federal government has to get involved. I guess it is a constitutional issue insofar that the constitution dictates the behavior and "reach" of the federal government, and I don't see where the constitution gives the federal government the authority to govern this sort of thing. I agree with the OP by suggesting that this is unconstitutional - but under the 10th amendment - but it seems like our governement largely ignores this one anyway.
Thank you, for that. I couldn't quite find the words to express what I was meaning, but you hit the nail on the head.
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3187202
On another note... in this issue with this little girl that died... this was an animal that was owned by someone in that household, correct? Am I remembering this correctly? An "escaped" python did not wander in off the street... right? Why do we need a whole law - a federal one no less - when we know whose snake it was and can deal with them? Sounds to me like another instance of the "nanny state."
You are correct. This was a snake that was kept in inadequate conditions. No heat, insufficient space, had been without food for months, etc. It came to light, that the owner was a drug dealer, who kept the snake as a "show piece" to show how tough he was.
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3187202
A thought I had... I know nothing about reptiles so someone chime in on this... in the case of snakes, is it possible to require microchipping them the same way that we microchip dogs or cats, so if an escaped animal did something, it could be traced back to it's original owner? Rest assured I'm not a fan of this like any other similar program (read: gun registration), but is it technically possible?
This was actually a law passed and put into place by Sen. Nelson back in late 07 or early 08. It required every python owner, in Florida, to have their snakes microchipped. It went further by requiring pet store owners, to be able to sell these snakes, have the animals microchipped, before being sold. That was where Florida "dropped the ball", because they did not enforce this law, after it was passed. When asked about this, Sen. Nelson continually avoids the question, as to why his state didn't enforce said law and yet, this is the man spearheading the proposed ban.
I'm not going to bore you guys with the long, drawn out political jibberish, but I recieved an email today, stating that the ban has pushed through the Senate Committee and will now go on to Congress and the Senate.

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by browniebuck
http:///forum/post/3187204
These snakes are being brought here to be pets...FINE...if you are able to correctly care for them. This is why regulations need to be set...in order to make sure that one of my 10 year old students can't go to a pet store and purchase one of these critters to take home and put into their 10 gallon aquarium (has happened in the past 3 years). The breeders of these snakes are just as much to blame...they are selling these snakes to people that have no worry about whether or not the animal will be properly cared for, they are in it to make a buck.
What you need to understand is there a difference between actual long term "breeders" and back yard breeders. The industry is mainly made up of long time hobbiests and actual breeders, who STRICTLY adhere to the laws and regulations, in which ever state they live. On every actual breeders page, you will find terms and conditions, where they do not sell to anyone under the age of 18 and said terms are verified before shipping of a purchase.
I don't disagree with you, by saying that "the breeders of these snakes are just as much to blame", because it is these people who go to local reptile shows and sell to just anyone. It's a common occurance...and not just with snakes. It's unregulated shows, where this happens.
I'm all for implementing tighter restrictions, on the industry...don't get me wrong. But, an all out ban is not the answer.

 

[engine_24]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/3187224
But, an all out ban is not the answer.
Agreed, but it is the easiest.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by engine_24
http:///forum/post/3187228
Agreed, but it is the easiest.
Easiest for the masses. I've had this conversation with numerous others on gun control. I'm a gun enthusiast, but I'm not a reptile enthusiast.
Speaking from that perspective, as someone who - in this case - has nothing to lose from a ban on pythons, I cannot favor of any kind of ban. I am against the degredation of anyone's liberties to deal with a subsection of the population.
We have to stop, as a country, government, whatever, doing whatever seems easiest because it pleases the masses. Degrading people's liberties should be fought against on every front, even by the people who stand to lose nothing from said degredation. Next time, it could be something "you" care about. America isn't easy, and it's this sort of laziness/populist politicking/grandstanding/whatever that is eroding away at all of our freedoms every day.
More laws are almost never the answer, and in this case, we are trying to pass bans when laws to deal with the issue already exist and aren't being used. We pass a law, nobody cares, so we pass more laws? How much sense does that make?

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3187270
Easiest for the masses. I've had this conversation with numerous others on gun control. I'm a gun enthusiast, but I'm not a reptile enthusiast.
Speaking from that perspective, as someone who - in this case - has nothing to lose from a ban on pythons, I cannot favor of any kind of ban. I am against the degredation of anyone's liberties to deal with a subsection of the population.
We have to stop, as a country, government, whatever, doing whatever seems easiest because it pleases the masses. Degrading people's liberties should be fought against on every front, even by the people who stand to lose nothing from said degredation. Next time, it could be something "you" care about. America isn't easy, and it's this sort of laziness/populist politicking/grandstanding/whatever that is eroding away at all of our freedoms every day.
More laws are almost never the answer, and in this case, we are trying to pass bans when laws to deal with the issue already exist and aren't being used. We pass a law, nobody cares, so we pass more laws? How much sense does that make?
Post of the year!
And, as said..."next time, if could be something "you" care about"...
The US Humane Society has been quoted as saying, something along the lines of "We are in agreement that the exotic pet industry should be shut down, completely"...
And that, ladies and gentlemen, of the of the saltwater fish enthusiats forum, means marine fish, too.

 

[small triggers]

Not to defend the humane society, but they do the clean up from the irresponsible owners and breeders. That being said I believe every pet should have some kind of restriction upon the person that sells it and or breeds it. I think if we were as strict as japan or hawaii about what comes in, gets bred and sold in the country we wouldnt have the problems that the humane society has to deal with nearly as much. But it does yet again get back to responsibility,,, people go to stores and buy $600 dogs, and then never take them to the vet same thing with snakes, horses, livestock....there needs to be something done,,, my preferance would be licensing of breeders and sellers with stricter regulations on who can purchase

 

[reefraff]

If Pythons or anything else is sold across state lines it actually does fall under the control of the Feds via the commerce clause. But like so many other things just because the government can doesn't mean they should. I still think this is best left to the states. A python being set loose in florida creates a whole different set of ecological problems than in say North Dakota where I would assume the cold winter temperatures would kill even a healthy specimen come winter.
I think the idea of requiring a micro chip in the large breeds does make a lot of sense. If you know the beast is chipped you wouldn't be as apt to just cut the thing loose. What would be really cool is if you could lojack them so if a pet of any kind was to escape they could be tracked and recovered.

 

[uneverno]

Yup. People will behave responsibly on their own. They will act altruistically, they will consider other peoples values and property, they won't offend or hurt others, etc.
That's who we are as a species. It's Human Nature. There is no need for Government.
Vive l'anarchie!

 

[mermaidgrrl13]

So Im just going to throw this out there as an example...Say there Is a drug dealer with a Full grown Lion Fish. Say the Lion fish is kept in horrible conditions. He keeps this fish as a status symbol (unfortunatly it happens to this type of animal often). He has a two year old daughter that is not being supervised one day and walks up to the tank one day and sticks her hand into the tank, gets stung, has a horrible reaction to it and drops dead. Lets say The same exact thing happens that is happening with they python ban but they want to ban all venemous fish. Pretty soon someone, somewhere would want to ban all saltwater species in general.
This was not the Snakes fault. It was the owners fault. I wonder what the fathers name was...they should name it after him. I still think they should limit the amount that should be allowed to be sold yearly and require permits. prehaps also require yearly vet reports? Then agian where do you intrude on a persons rights? You have to register your dogs? why not a snake? Honestly though??? I think more people get killed by forks yearly than pythons. Like I said that snake was grossly mistreated, and why did that little girl not respond when she was bit? from what I understood (I could be wrong here) there was no way the snake could have acctually eaten her) so why didnt anyone respond to her crys? makes you wonder...who should be held resposnible...

 

[reefraff]

The city I live in bans pit bulls, OR ANY DOG THAT LOOKS LIKE A PIT BULL. If in the opinion of animal control your dog is a pit you have to be able to provide evidence it's not. Good luck with that one. But anyway the python trade should have gotten ahead of this after the snake killed the kid. The media hysteria was comparable to how they treat a pit attack. I saw this coming.

 

[mermaidgrrl13]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3187535
The city I live in bans pit bulls, OR ANY DOG THAT LOOKS LIKE A PIT BULL. If in the opinion of animal control your dog is a pit you have to be able to provide evidence it's not. Good luck with that one. But anyway the python trade should have gotten ahead of this after the snake killed the kid. The media hysteria was comparable to how they treat a pit attack. I saw this coming.
This is a whole other issue that i think is also grossly over exagerated. I can tell you from working with animals for 16 years that way more dog fights are started by chihuahuas and shi thus than pit bulls, its just that unfortunatly for bullys, they were made to cause damage. Im sure if someone kept track more people (and children) have been bite by small dogs as well...agian its just that bullys have those massive jaws that were made to...well cause damage. It all comes down to with great power comes great responsibility. wether its snakes or horses or pit bulls. take care of your stuff, always realize your animals strength and dont ever think.."that wont ever happen to me."