Reply to Shoreliner again/Evolution/Creation debate :)

[shawnts106]

HI AGAIN, im back, and always will be
ok first lets understand something, in the last topic everyone that replyed, replyed negitivly, of course... however one thing stood out... and thats that everyone had and still has a biast... including me, therefore in order for your Biast to make since and for you to have reason to believe something you have to have physical or emotional facts about that idea... aka, since I believe in a creator that CREATED us with a design in mind that is my BIAST, since the EVOLUTIONIST believe that we all came from ABSOLUTLY NOTHING, that matter created itself, personally My believe is much more logical, but thats just me... this is there biast..
Also, everyone kept saying things like OHHH YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND LA LA LA, AND ITS CUS' YER' FRUM' ALABAMA.
LOL, first off my LOCATION is from alabama, I am not "American", haha, English(aka: engllllannnnd,) and second and also Spanish *spain not mexico, theres a huge difference * HOLA AMIGOS! anyway!
second my LOCATION has NOTHING to do with my beliefs I was taught evolution as a child and saw some many falacies in it... false beliefs, evolutionists believe that matter created itsself, that your GREAT (10000000000000...ect.) grandfather was soup and that none living material creates living material.
AKA, they believe that NOTHING makes life and spontanious generation, which btw: was disproved well over 200years ago
anyway, Evolutionists believe in Circular Reasoning... yes you do... You find a fossil in the dirt, look what rock layer its in and that tells you how old it is... you find a rock layer look what fossils are in it and determine out old the fossil is, thats CIRCULAR REASONING.
aka its like saying BECAUSE, BECAUSE!
look it up if you dont believe me, thats what ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO DO, I do NOT NOT NOT spit out lies... if I have LIED please let me know about it.
Evolutionists also believe in Vestigial (spelling?) Organs... ALL ORGANS ARE USED THERE ARE NONE THAT ARE NOT, in other words NONE are vestigial, and I challenge ANYONE to tell me what a vestigial organ in the human or animal body is... go ahead just name ONE!
the bottom line is and this has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY BELIEFS, that Evolution is a disproven STILL TAUGHT theory that our world has been tricked into believing, if you would open your eyes, do a little research and ask questions you will see that this theory is a false theory.
BTW: the average evolutionists only knows about 1 type of the 7 types of "evolutions"... the one they know about is called Microevolution, or Variations within the kinds or species.
this is the ONLY observable fact about this WHOLE THEORY, btw: Microevolution is talking about variations within the kinds, like if we have a dog breed it with another dog of the same species we get a, none the less, a DOG, not a cow, cat, chicken or carrot...the DOG may have different colors or patterns but it is STILL A DOG, and I seriously dought weather it will change into something else over "millions of years" IF WE are still around in millions of year, which I dought, but anyway! IF WE ARE, I think then the theory will be put down because people will still be seeing the same old animals running about in the wild and no dogs that have transformed into purple people eatters...
thanks for reading hope this helped you

 

[lovethesea]

it would appear that you are just keeping yourself occupied by writing so much that it gives us all a headache. If you find the correct
fool to bite on your hook....congrats, but it would appear (by your last few locked threads) that you are only debating yourself

 

[schubert]

Well...as far as the circular reasoning...I can definitely understand where you're coming from...people very ignorantly use such rationale quite often...but very rarely does this happen in science. For example, carbon dating, if you understand the process, is very simple to understand and applies to both present and past organisms/artifacts in the same way, assuming that half life of carbon is constant, but trying to question THAT would pretty much allow anyone to question anything, and we'd have nothing. Scientific processes that are not based on circular reasoning can be applied and tested in other areas to determine how different variables affect the age of something, such as the layer of the rock. This is all blatantly obvious.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter how God, if you believe in him or one, chooses to form life. YOU TELL ME why God couldn't use evolution if he wanted, which by the way exists at the very least in some form, to create parts of the world as we know it today? Why can't 1 day in Genesis be metaphorical for many many years, etc etc. Why not? Does it really matter? Someone try to to tell me that it does...yeah that's what I thought.

 

[spanky]

Shawn, I appreciate your objective, your effort, and your enthusiasm.
I offer a few humble suggestions:
To be an effective apologist you have to exchange ideas in a thoughtful, kind, and patient manner. There is no room for sarcasm. You must also thoroughly understand the argument you are confronting. In this case, it is important to understand the difference between "micro evolution" and "marco evolution". There is a tremendous mountain of evidence of the former, and a scarcity of evidence in support of the latter. If you don't understand the difference you defeat yourself, because your more educated opponents DO know that micro-evolution is a reality. It's demonstrable, and well-accepted by the vast majority of educated people, including those who share faith in the Lord.
There are many books which discuss the subject of evolution in the context of creation in great detail. Many others argue one "theory" against the other. You might look at "Darwin's Black Box" and "Of Adam and Evolution". Both can be dry reading at times - especially for those who have no background in science - but the information is there for any who wish to challenge their intellectual limits.
Simply put, many with extensive education and experience in science believe that evolution is one of many adaptive mechanisms God put in place when He designed His world. That's micro-evolution - the mechanism by which the beaks of some birds will lengthen over generations, for example. (Which is completely different from saying that men evolved from frogs or apes...)
My last suggestion is this: Have somebody proof-read your prose before you publish it. The pseudo-intellectualls who are most vehement in their opposition to faith often characterize religion as "the continuous suicide of reason". They characterize Christians as poorly educated idiots. When you argue ineffectively, employ sarcasm, and misuse words you underscore their argument.
Alex
p.s. The word is BIAS, by the way. There is no "T" at the end.
p.p.s: I was a doctoral candidate in Biology at a large state University before I decided I didn't want to spend my life in a white lab coat. I finished my MS in Biology (Quantitative Genetics) before moving on to different education and my present career. My understanding of science in general, and genetics in particular, was a significant barrier to learning about God. Had it not been for an exceptionally bright, patient, well-read pastor, and a gifted emergency room physician in the same church, I might never have been able to overcome my "intellectual" arrogance. It was a real barrier to the listening I so desperately needed to do.

 

[malounsbury]

Just curious, but if you keep getting threads locked by starting up this debate, why do you keep starting other threads? I assume that you're putting yourself at risk for getting banned.

 

[007]

Originally Posted by malounsbury
I assume that you're putting yourself at risk for getting banned.
one can only hope . . . .

 

[nm reef]

In general I'd say the debate between those that believe in evolution and those that believe the world is about 2000 years old and was created in whole by "god" is interesting at times and comical at others. Lets try to keep the discussion civil and polite...and try to comprehend that there is no living person that can say with absolute certainty which path is more accurate...to think so is simply false.
...and keep in mind that there are "religions" that have differing versions of the histroy of the world than Christianity...and there is no basis for any claim that Christianity is the proper religion to believe in.
Folks can be very set in there beliefs and it sometimes blinds them to other views and opinions...but that never makes their blinding believe right or proper or even worth while.
...but the diversity of belief and opinion can be thought provoking and very interesting...as long as those doing the discussing attempt to remove the blinders of their individual opinions.

 

[bang guy]

You should listen to Spanky Shawn. I don't care how right you are with your arguement you will not be able to present a persuasive post with so many misspelled words and grammatical errors. It not only makes understanding your point more difficult, it diminishes any desire to even try.
Your research appears to be a bit weak. Either that you you prefer to skip the findings that don't support what you believe. That might not even be intentional on your part.

 

[tizzo]

Shawnts...
Why are you so deturmined to even keep bringing up this topic?? An evolutionist will not change the mind of one who believes in creation and the creationist wont change the mind of the ones who believe in evolution...Unless one asks you, I don't think you are going to "change" anybody's mind...
I believe in creation, but I also respect that MOST of this country don't and it's not my job, nor yours to change their belief. If they ask you, be ready to respond, but arguing about it is definately not the way to convince people.

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by Schubert
Anyway, it doesn't really matter how God, if you believe in him or one, chooses to form life. YOU TELL ME why God couldn't use evolution if he wanted, which by the way exists at the very least in some form, to create parts of the world as we know it today? Why can't 1 day in Genesis be metaphorical for many many years, etc etc. Why not? Does it really matter? Someone try to to tell me that it does...yeah that's what I thought.
I have been in many discussions concerning this topic. I agree that it isn't as important to know how exactly God created the earth, but rather that those who share the Christian faith believe He created it. I myself am a Christian and, obviously, I believe God can do anything. However, I don't believe He used the process of evolution to create the earth and its inhabitants. I do believe in natural selection and that the animals most suited to their particular environment have a better chance of surviving, thus passing their genes on to the next generation and eventually making up the majority of the population. When it comes to the matter of how long a day really is, as in Genesis, I believe, with no doubt whatsoever, that they are indeed meant to be 24 hour days. This is because the word "day" is the Hebrew word "yom", and this word specifically means a 24 hour day. Nowhere in the Hebrew Old Testament is the word yom used to indicate a large amount of time, but rather a day as we know it. I find myself more intrigued with the fact that God took a whole six days to do something believers know He could do in a split second.
Just in case anyone is wondering, I haven't been brainwashed and have done many hours of research by my own will and have reached this conclusion without the influence of others. I will believe God's Word over man's acquired knowledge (science/evolution) anyday.
This is just my frame of mind concerning this topic, and I in no way wish to offend or anger anyone.
-lefty

 

[malounsbury]

Originally Posted by lefty
I do believe in natural selection and that the animals most suited to their particular environment have a better chance of surviving, thus passing their genes on to the next generation and eventually making up the majority of the population.
So, why is it the majority of the population are idiots anymore? Are they really out surviving the smart people?

 

[lefty]

=P
I believe the status of "idiot" is an acquired trait.
-lefty

 

[gwiley]

Originally Posted by malounsbury
So, why is it the majority of the population are idiots anymore? Are they really out surviving the smart people?

what on earth did you just say in that sentence?

 

[malounsbury]

I'm referring to the population of earth, mostly the US, where a lot of people are lacking in intelligence. Just wondering how they're still surviving.

 

[shawnts106]

Anyway, it doesn't really matter how God, if you believe in him or one, chooses to form life. YOU TELL ME why God couldn't use evolution if he wanted, which by the way exists at the very least in some form, to create parts of the world as we know it today? Why can't 1 day in Genesis be metaphorical for many many years, etc etc. Why not? Does it really matter? Someone try to to tell me that it does...yeah that's what I thought.
lol, wow there are alot of people replying and I thank everyone for there opinions and replys, but to answer the questions above:
"It is very simple to answer the questions above, one, why cant 1 day in genesis be metaphorical for many many years, etc etc."
May I ask, why are the days mentioned in Genesis the ONLY days questioned by the evolutionist?... as Left so intelegently stated, the word YOM means specifically a 24 hour period....
You also have to take into account the reason why we are translating it into another language, the reason being is the English language is a very deteriated language, and very non discriptive... while greek, hebrew etc... are VERY DISCRIPTIVE languages. these were the languages that the bible once was in. before it was translated.
Genesis creation account mentioning the "DAYS" are the ONLY days questioned... dont you find that a bit odd... why not question other days?
you also asked why I keep pressing this issue and why I keep making a deal out of it!... simple, why wouldnt I? Why should I just let people believe in false Ideas, like the Circular Reasoning thing?....
Carbon dating is a very interesting meathod, but you still have to know the amount of carbon in the animal the exact moment it stoped living, and you still have to know what may have changed the rate of decay... which evolutionist ASSUME that it STAYED constent, and is obveously a bad theory, NOTHING stays the same the universe is becomming more and more caotic every day! NOT MORE ORDERLY, which is what evolution teaches us... that we are becomming better and better, which of course and OBVEOULY isnt true because of our deminishing health, our maturity factor, our deseases etc....
what on earth did you just say in that sentence?
Gwily, you took the words RIGHT out of my mouth lol!
I'm referring to the population of earth, mostly the US, where a lot of people are lacking in intelligence. Just wondering how they're still surviving.
If your referring to the people who believe in a CREATOR or a DESIGNER as being lacking of intelligence then im sorry, but some of the most profound thinkers and founders were Christians, our founding fathers had God in mind when founding this Nation... Jesus Christ not Budda or Alah, or any other but Jesus.
it would be like saying our nation was founding by idiotic religious fools, which IMO would be more of a terrorists statment than that of a law abiding united states citizen! but just My Opinion
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I do believe in natural selection and that the animals most suited to their particular environment have a better chance of surviving, thus passing their genes on to the next generation and eventually making up the majority of the population.
I agree whole heartedly, this is OBSERVABLE TESTABLE REPEATABLE SCIENCE, not a theory... its called adaption
Just in case anyone is wondering, I haven't been brainwashed and have done many hours of research by my own will and have reached this conclusion without the influence of others. I will believe God's Word over man's acquired knowledge (science/evolution) anyday.
Once again, I believe this also, Man is flawed in so many ways where I know for a fact, mainly because ive DIED 4 times, but I know that our creater is perfect and that he made us and knows us better than ourselves!
Why are you so deturmined to even keep bringing up this topic?? An evolutionist will not change the mind of one who believes in creation and the creationist wont change the mind of the ones who believe in evolution...Unless one asks you, I don't think you are going to "change" anybody's mind...
Because I believe that everyone has a right to know what they are being taught is a false theory that is based on assumptions and theorys that are not scientific but labeld as, but rather religious in the aspect of people BELIEVING in them not being able to test them.
I believe that it is a Christians responsibility to tell the TRUTH and spread it in the world... that is ALL I am doing and anyone who says any different is a fool because they have not researched it themselves but choose to live in darkness! Blinded by their own minds.
I FIRMLY believe the things that I am stating because they are factual, testable, observable, repeatable evidence that Evolution is a false theory.
it takes nothing more than a few strokes of the keyboard or a few turning of some pages to learn that what I state is truth.

 

[spanky]

...and keep in mind that there are "religions" that have differing versions of the histroy of the world than Christianity...and there is no basis for any claim that Christianity is the proper religion to believe in.
Actually, there is, just as there is a basis for alternative claims. Heck, there was a basis for the "world is round" claim, just as there was a basis for the "world is flat" claim. Somebody was right...and somebody was not. There are many cogent, compelling, well supported arguments in support of Christianity. Most folks just don't care enough to do the reading, questioning and thinking to find and understand them. Some do and are not persuaded, but I think they are the exception to the rule. Apathy is the more common condition.
When it comes to religion, most Americans don't care enough about the questions to bother with the substantial intellectual discipline it takes to make an informed choice. Most of us just regurgitate the platitudes we've heard and call it good. That's what I used to do anyway.
The convergence of several things got me thinking more deeply about God and religion. First, my wife got pregnant and I started worrying about what I would tell my kids; it felt irresponsible to just pass along my ignorance. Next, I finally tumbled to the fact that not everybody gets to be right - and the stakes MAY be very high.
The central tenets of the wolds dominant religions are inconsistent with the tenets of others, so if one group of "believers" is right, the followers of all the alternative religions MUST be wrong. For example, Christ either IS or ISN'T God's son, but he can't be both of those things simultaneously. That may seem obvious to many, but it was a critical realization for me, because it meant that "we don't get to ALL be right". If it matters, and somebody may be right at the expense of all others, it seemed like I better at least try to understand more.
I read voraciously and asked lots and lots of questions of many people. I read the opinions of respected Christians, and then I listened to intellectual jews explain why the Christians were all wrong. I read about Mormonism and asked Mormons to help me understand their beliefs. I read about the Muslim faith and tried to understand as much as I could about the areas of disagreement. I knew almost nothing, so it's been a very long and challenging road.
Well, my kids are teenagers now, and I still know very little. I am, however, comfortable with my belief and faith. I don't need to persuade others, but it is kind to help when others ask, so I do my best to share my limited understanding.
I am particularly fond of the biologists, chemists and others who have been similarly steeped in our scientific culture and education, as that background provides a particularly challenging barrier to learning about the stuff that really matters in life.
My answers may not be sufficient or particularly satisfying for others who are struggeling along the same path - but that's the beauty of the process and intellectual freedom of choice. People can dig, twist, and turn as necessary to discern the truth for themselves. The most important thing, I think, is that people take the time to look, challenge, and answer the most important questions.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by malounsbury
So, why is it the majority of the population are idiots anymore? Are they really out surviving the smart people?

They're not out-surviving the smart people, they are out-breeding them.

 

[malounsbury]

Originally Posted by shawnts106
Gwily, you took the words RIGHT out of my mouth lol!
If your referring to the people who believe in a CREATOR or a DESIGNER as being lacking of intelligence then im sorry, but some of the most profound thinkers and founders were Christians, our founding fathers had God in mind when founding this Nation... Jesus Christ not Budda or Alah, or any other but Jesus.
it would be like saying our nation was founding by idiotic religious fools, which IMO would be more of a terrorists statment than that of a law abiding united states citizen! but just My Opinion
Actually I was referring to you partially, but not for beliefs or others like you, but for the fact that you just don't get it and keep starting these ridiculous threads when you've had two locked already. I mean really, this is a fish forum, not a religious forum. The other idiots I was referring to, was the people I deal with on a daily basis, like the people that have to drive 10mph below the speed limit because its raining, etc. But I'm glad you assume that I was speaking about you and your beliefs. As far as the "religious fools" that started our country, the terrorists that are against us are just as religious as those people, or so they claim to be and our current president I believe is fairly religious. So, aren't we fighting his holy war?
And Bang, that sure is the truth.

 

[ophiura]

So I'm a Roman Catholic and an evolutionary biologist. And the two are not at odds...
Which slant do people want to attack me on?
The Roman Catholic, or the evolutionary biologist? LOL. You gotta laugh at yourself sometimes.
But there is no point in expressing my beliefs or perspective...as Shawnts has already in previous posts "proven" how naive I am, LOL, in believing that evolution is God's mechanism of creation. I find it awe inspiring, personally. But I'm a fool. I guess you can condemn people, or be extremely judgemental and that is great. Just so long as you are not an evolutionary biologist, LOL.
I would love to be able to actually have open minded debates or even just exchanges. Its a fascinating thing. But no preaching. And that just ain't gonna happen. I can respect and appreciate the creationist point of view because I'm not that far away. I'm not a die hard atheistic evolutionist and I will be the first to admit there are A LOT of them. and I think they are missing a lot. But these threads, IMO, are not productive because they are looking, IMO, for conversions and not discussion. And this is not the place for conversions (though that alk, calcium one is pretty handy )

 

[tizzo]

Perfect!!
OK Ophiura, I will debate with you...
Lemon merangue pie is definately better than blackberry!!

Whatcha gotta say about THAT!!