Run your car with water

oscardeuce

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2691814
You forgot to add HEAT. A percentage of the combustion turns to waste heat. This is actually the major inefficiency. So, although 147J of ENERGY is returned only 130J is converted to mechanical energy. (example, the actual numbers depend on engine specifics like compression ratio and volume)
Actually in the "losses to the environment"=heat, friction etc
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691818
Do a little research....how is it a drain on your engine??? Obviously you have no clue how a car works.
Explain how it is a drain on the engine in a realistic meaningful way....and I might believe you.
The belt is either directly or indirectly connected to the drive shaft of the vehicle. The alternator generates electricity using friction, the friction consumes energy from the drive shaft. If belt driven accessories on vehicles didn't steal energy from the drive shaft we would all be driving with supercharged engines and you wouldn't feel a loss of power when the air conditioner kicks in.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Once again, I reiterate.....ya'll have taken this WAY off of what the OP was asking. OP was not asking about running hydrgen/battery vehicles. We are talking about everyday friggin cars that burn gasoline that use hydrogen, made with your own vehicles battery + water, to HELP your fuel economy. NOW CAN YOU READ THE WHOLE THING
 
oscardeuce

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691818
Do a little research....how is it a drain on your engine??? Obviously you have no clue how a car works.
Explain how it is a drain on the engine in a realistic meaningful way....and I might believe you.
You need a clue about chemistry and physicis. These are types of propetual motion machines. People claim you pour water in the gas tank, and never have to refuel as you constantly interconvert H2O and H2/O2. You can sustain the reaction for a short time, but even wihtout taking any E out to do other work (ie move your car, play the radio, etc) you will lose enough E to friction, heat to eventually stop the reaction.
Like bang said. In a "perfect" reaction 147 J will be needed to burn or separate H2 and O2. In the real world it still takes at least 147J (perfect) reaction to separate, and you will get 130J or less out due to losses ( heat friction electrical resistance).
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2691823
The belt is either directly or indirectly connected to the drive shaft of the vehicle. The alternator generates electricity using friction, the friction consumes energy from the drive shaft. If belt driven accessories on vehicles didn't steal energy from the drive shaft we would all be driving with supercharged engines and you wouldn't feel a loss of power when the air conditioner kicks in.
The friggin belt spins the same irregardless. Hydrogen or not......NO EXTRA FRICTION TO RUN HYDROGEN OR YOUR RADIO.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2691828
You need a clue about chemistry and physicis. These are types of propetual motion machines. People claim you pour water in the gas tank, and never have to refuel as you constantly interconvert H2O and H2/O2. You can sustain the reaction for a short time, but even wihtout taking any E out to do other work (ie move your car, play the radio, etc) you will lose enough E to friction, heat to eventually stop the reaction.
Like bang said. In a "perfect" reaction 147 J will be needed to burn or separate H2 and O2. In the real world it still takes at least 147J (perfect) reaction to separate, and you will get 130J or less out due to losses ( heat friction electrical resistance).
please refer to post 63 and the beginning of the thread
 
oscardeuce

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691830
The friggin belt spins the same irregardless. Hydrogen or not......NO EXTRA FRICTION TO RUN HYDROGEN OR YOUR RADIO.

So you claim there is no energy lost to run your A/C either?
 
oscardeuce

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691830
The friggin belt spins the same irregardless. Hydrogen or not......NO EXTRA FRICTION TO RUN HYDROGEN OR YOUR RADIO.

From
http://www.answers.com/topic/alternators-1
But, in fact, it absorbs a lot of engine power, which you pay for in increased fuel consumption.The rule of thumb is that the horsepower drain on the engine is twice the number of kilowatts produced. For example, if a 100-amp alternator is charging a 12-volt system at full capacity, it’s producing 1,200 watts, or 1.2 kilowatts. Therefore, it steals 2.4 horsepower from the engine.Another rule of thumb concerns charging capacity.
Its not FRICTION, the term is "work". There is extra work involved, requiring extra energy into the system.
 
oscardeuce

oscardeuce

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691835
please refer to post 63 and the beginning of the thread
It is the same concept. I'd have to see all the numbers, but the extra work to run the alternator/carry the water/heat generation/electrical resistance drastically changes the final output.
I'm stilll awaiting "Mr Fusion" taht would soulve our problems.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2691836
So you claim there is no energy lost to run your A/C either?
No I am not. When the AC is off there is less friction (work) on the engine. When the AC engages, there is more.
The alternator spins at the same friction (work) load no matter what is plugged into it. How is this so hard to understand???
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2691804
Your premise isn't accurate. The amount of energy used to turn the alternator is not a factor in how much energy you receive from splitting water molecules for the Hydrogen vs how much energy is received from burning Hydrogen. You still get less back than what you put in.
But if you're already expending that energy? Alternators today are regulated to produce steady voltage No matter how fast they spin. And more of a draw isn't going to increase the voltage or decrease the voltage put out of an alternator.
I don't think it will work, I don't know how volatile H is compared to gas vapor but if it is less explosive it is going to act as an inhibitor and if it is more explosive then you'll have alot of busted engines.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2691838
From
http://www.answers.com/topic/alternators-1
But, in fact, it absorbs a lot of engine power, which you pay for in increased fuel consumption.The rule of thumb is that the horsepower drain on the engine is twice the number of kilowatts produced. For example, if a 100-amp alternator is charging a 12-volt system at full capacity, it’s producing 1,200 watts, or 1.2 kilowatts. Therefore, it steals 2.4 horsepower from the engine.Another rule of thumb concerns charging capacity.
Its not FRICTION, the term is "work". There is extra work involved, requiring extra energy into the system.
Doesn't matter what is plugged in.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2691839
It is the same concept. I'd have to see all the numbers, but the extra work to run the alternator/carry the water/heat generation/electrical resistance drastically changes the final output.
I'm stilll awaiting "Mr Fusion" taht would soulve our problems.
There is 0, nada, zippo, zilch extra work on an alternator to run more crap in the car. The alternator has a certain amperage load it can produce, but that does not affect the work of the engine.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691824
Once again, I reiterate.....ya'll have taken this WAY off of what the OP was asking.
YOU took it off topic when you referenced a link to a FUEL CELL VEHICLE!
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691493
$4 for 40 miles....that's 40MPG at todays gas prices. Not too shabby if you ask me.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2691845
But if you're already expending that energy? Alternators today are regulated to produce steady voltage No matter how fast they spin. And more of a draw isn't going to increase the voltage or decrease the voltage put out of an alternator.
I don't think it will work, I don't know how volatile H is compared to gas vapor but if it is less explosive it is going to act as an inhibitor and if it is more explosive then you'll have alot of busted engines.
Hydrogen is way more volitile (explosive). That is the point. Cars only use a certain % of the BTU's available in gasoline. Say 70% at best. The rest is expelled as wasted energy. Hydrogen burns/ignites at a better % level. It is allready in gaseous form. Not a liquid being sprayed and hopefully becoming airborn.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691844
The alternator spins at the same friction (work) load no matter what is plugged into it. How is this so hard to understand???
That's false. The alternator has a regulator that controls how much load it pulls from the engine for whatever it needs to power. The higher load the alternator needs to charge, the more power the engine needs to feed it.
Here's a test: Jump start a dead car while yours is running. You will hear the engine kick in to power the extra electrical draw.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2691850
There is 0, nada, zippo, zilch extra work on an alternator to run more crap in the car. The alternator has a certain amperage load it can produce, but that does not affect the work of the engine.
The amperage output of a modern alternator is not fixed. It's variable. If what you are saying was true then all you would have to do for increased MPG is get a smaller alternator or install a smaller pully so it spins slower.
 
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