Russia invades Georgia

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2715388
With a statement for the cessation of the violence. Emergency meeting of the UN security council. Nothing more until asked by Georgia or the UN.
A statement would be fine, but the UN is a joke, IMO. They lack the credibility to be taken seriously. Saddam mocked the UN for years, as have Iran, Libya, Jordan, China, North Korea, Viet Nam, Palestine...the list goes on and on and on. The UN is a joke and dictators of the world know it.
This may be the beginning of the end, kids. Allies tied to either, or both sides will start feeling the abrasion of being loyal to one or both while staying on good terms with other allies. This could get REAL messy really fast. What is Iran doing right now? Will North Korea see this as an opportunity to do something stupid? With the world focused on Russia and Georgia the shifty characters of the world may get out of hand.

 

[texasmetal]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2718978
A statement would be fine, but the UN is a joke, IMO. They lack the credibility to be taken seriously. Saddam mocked the UN for years, as have Iran, Libya, Jordan, China, North Korea, Viet Nam, Palestine...the list goes on and on and on. The UN is a joke and dictators of the world know it.
This may be the beginning of the end, kids. Allies tied to either, or both sides will start feeling the abrasion of being loyal to one or both while staying on good terms with other allies. This could get REAL messy really fast. What is Iran doing right now? Will North Korea see this as an opportunity to do something stupid? With the world focused on Russia and Georgia the shifty characters of the world may get out of hand.
I'm with you. If this doesn't end quick it's going to get REALLY UGLY, REALLY FAST. Scary situation.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Coral Keeper
http:///forum/post/2715431
Is Georgia allied with the US?
yes

 

[rylan1]

This war is over oil! And there is not much anyone can do... Europe can not act because they get their oil from Russia, and all Russia has to do is cut the supply.
The US is also powerless because we are no longer a moral authority because of the tactics and policies of the Bush Admin... this is why we were so chummy with them at the olympics... and now Bush and changed his tune because of political and electorial reasons brought on by conservative republicans..
Georgia from the reports I read are a democratic nation whom Europe and Western intrests such as the U.S have sought to bypass Russian oil for oil located in other parts of Asia.
The World and U.S have overlooked the resurgence of Russia which is based on them becoming a much richer nation off of oil... also little was mentioned when Putin steped down and appointed the next president in a orchestrated election, and then named himself Prime Minister...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720056
The US is also powerless because we are no longer a moral authority because of the tactics and policies of the Bush Admin... this is why we were so chummy with them at the olympics... and now Bush and changed his tune because of political and electorial reasons brought on by conservative republicans..
lol you don't need moral authority when you have MARINES!!!!!

What is "moral authority" anyways?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2720078
lol you don't need moral authority when you have MARINES!!!!!

What is "moral authority" anyways?
thats our problem... we always think we can solve any issue with bombs and war... that are incapable of losing... all we have to do us yell "USA"... We no longer have that luxury, especially with a nation such as Russia..
And moral authority was are way of being an example to other nations, and our ability to persuade them against occupying other nations...

 

[jerthunter]

Saying this is an 'oil war' is a gross oversimplification. In fact saying any war or conflict is caused by any one thing or person would be an over simlified. Sure, wars are started because one group wants something that another group doesn't want to give up. Oil, land, money, power... So it seems pointless to me to try to say, This is an oil war. That shouldn't matter. What matters is one group wants to take something and the only thing we should think is, do we want to try to stop them or not.
Moral authority, no human created government will ever be a moral authority. The politicians in one country are just as corrupt as the ones in other countries. And any one politician in this country is just as corrupt as another. So who knows, if there was another guy in charge, maybe we wouldn't be in one war but we'd be just as likely to be in another.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
http:///forum/post/2720156
Saying this is an 'oil war' is a gross oversimplification. In fact saying any war or conflict is caused by any one thing or person would be an over simlified. Sure, wars are started because one group wants something that another group doesn't want to give up. Oil, land, money, power... So it seems pointless to me to try to say, This is an oil war. That shouldn't matter. What matters is one group wants to take something and the only thing we should think is, do we want to try to stop them or not.
Moral authority, no human created government will ever be a moral authority. The politicians in one country are just as corrupt as the ones in other countries. And any one politician in this country is just as corrupt as another. So who knows, if there was another guy in charge, maybe we wouldn't be in one war but we'd be just as likely to be in another.
It does matter... wars can sometimes be justifiable... Strategically for Russia it maybe because of potential financial loss...but again... this war is over oil... if it is not I would like an alternative explanation.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720217
It does matter... wars can sometimes be justifiable... Strategically for Russia it maybe because of potential financial loss...but again... this war is over oil... if it is not I would like an alternative explanation.
Oil or no oil, it shouldn't matter. Perhaps it is over dirt, or the fact that at one time Georgia was controlled by Russia. Perhaps Russia doesn't like the fact that Georgia is so friendly with the US and sees that as a threat. Saying it is about oil is an over simplification. I'm sure oil has a part in it but it is not THE reason. As far as justification, different things are justified to different people. There are no 'just' wars, just as there are no unjust wars.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720105
thats our problem... we always think we can solve any issue with bombs and war... that are incapable of losing... all we have to do us yell "USA"... We no longer have that luxury, especially with a nation such as Russia..
And moral authority was are way of being an example to other nations, and our ability to persuade them against occupying other nations...

And I guess our "occupation" of Iraq is what you our (sorry I couldn't resist) referring to in a loss of moral authority?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
http:///forum/post/2720237
Oil or no oil, it shouldn't matter. Perhaps it is over dirt, or the fact that at one time Georgia was controlled by Russia. Perhaps Russia doesn't like the fact that Georgia is so friendly with the US and sees that as a threat. Saying it is about oil is an over simplification. I'm sure oil has a part in it but it is not THE reason. As far as justification, different things are justified to different people. There are no 'just' wars, just as there are no unjust wars.
There has to be a reason... and your conclusion doesn't hold water IMO. Second, how could there be both no just and no unjust wars? What other types of war are there?

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720625
There has to be a reason... and your conclusion doesn't hold water IMO. Second, how could there be both no just and no unjust wars? What other types of war are there?
Of course there is a reason, or atleast a cause for the war. One group wants something that another group is unwilling to give up. Saying its about oil is over simplified and does nothing to make it just or unjust.
War is war, a part of our world but it is neither just or unjust. If it is justified name me one justified war and one unjustified one. (On second thought just name me one justified one since I'm pretty certain what you would consider an unjustifed war already0

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720625
There has to be a reason... and your conclusion doesn't hold water IMO. Second, how could there be both no just and no unjust wars? What other types of war are there?
It is easy to understand why this is throwing you for a loop, this is a conservative that doesn't fit your warmonger template.
He is simply saying that war is never right, no matter what the need you should never need to be in that situtation, you might have your hand forced where you have to (like iraq) but there is nothing just about having our kids over there having to kill people.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2720636
It is easy to understand why this is throwing you for a loop, this is a conservative that doesn't fit your warmonger template.
He is simply saying that war is never right, no matter what the need you should never need to be in that situtation, you might have your hand forced where you have to (like iraq) but there is nothing just about having our kids over there having to kill people.
This is not some warmonger template... and the responses given have been very vague with no real explanation of why the conflict is occuring... Just the response of war is neither unjust or just... and they are fighting over complex reasons... reasons in which I disagree with them all.
The South Ossetia region is a small area of only about 70,000 people... this in the U.S would be a relatively small city. Georgia also sits in between Caspian Sea that has a lot of oil and Russia... it is also relatively close to Iran... Strategically we have allied ourselves with them because of the proximity to Iran.
More importantly because of our U.S backed oil pipeline. The Caspian Sea and access to it is what is valueable because of the wealth of oil there. Also the route through Georgia allows the U.S and Europe to bypass the Middle East and Russia for oil.. The current pipeline supplies 1% of the world's oil supply... The U.S and Europe has sought to expand the oil operations in the region because they say the Caspian Sea could hold the 3rd largest oil reserve. So Russia is acting to either send a message to Georgia, or to gain control of the oil that flows through the region because of the West's interests to limit their reliance on Middle Eastern oil.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720686
This is not some warmonger template... and the responses given have been very vague with no real explanation of why the conflict is occuring... Just the response of war is neither unjust or just... and they are fighting over complex reasons... reasons in which I disagree with them all.
The South Ossetia region is a small area of only about 70,000 people... this in the U.S would be a relatively small city. Georgia also sits in between Caspian Sea that has a lot of oil and Russia... it is also relatively close to Iran... Strategically we have allied ourselves with them because of the proximity to Iran.
More importantly because of our U.S backed oil pipeline. The Caspian Sea and access to it is what is valueable because of the wealth of oil there. Also the route through Georgia allows the U.S and Europe to bypass the Middle East and Russia for oil.. The current pipeline supplies 1% of the world's oil supply... The U.S and Europe has sought to expand the oil operations in the region because they say the Caspian Sea could hold the 3rd largest oil reserve. So Russia is acting to either send a message to Georgia, or to gain control of the oil that flows through the region because of the West's interests to limit their reliance on Middle Eastern oil.
Which is exactly why we should drill for our own oil...
I agree their has been very vague answers, because no one really knows, here anyway...

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720686
T... it is also relatively close to Iran... Strategically we have allied ourselves with them because of the proximity to Iran...l.
Rylan, please look at a map. We currently are on Iran's Western and Eastern border. We don't need to be "allies" with Georgia to be close to Iran.
We are allies with Georgia for the same reason the President and Vice President pushed to get Georgia and the Ukraine admitted into NATO; Despite what you are trying to say, some people did still see Russia as a potential threat and wanted to strengthen the European front against the Soviets.
FWIW, Senator McCain also saw this coming...

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2720688
Which is exactly why we should drill for our own oil...
I agree their has been very vague answers, because no one really knows, here anyway...
We will still need to import oil... because of our usage.... we need to develop more alternatives for mainstream use.. I just read a report of scientists who have developed way to get diesel, gas, and jet fuel from poop.
Benefits from domestic drilling are also years away... (how many is debatable, and not relevant to current needs.) Reports say that BP has shut down their pipeline in Georgia so get gas now.... will be up again
We just need to be less dependent on oil all together... I think if a major war were to insue... it will be over oil and the conflicts that spurn from it... which I believe is part of the reasoning for islamic extremists..

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2720698
We will still need to import oil... because of our usage.... we need to develop more alternatives for mainstream use.. I just read a report of scientists who have developed way to get diesel, gas, and jet fuel from poop.
Benefits from domestic drilling are also years away... (how many is debatable, and not relevant to current needs.) Reports say that BP has shut down their pipeline in Georgia so get gas now.... will be up again
We just need to be less dependent on oil all together... I think if a major war were to insue... it will be over oil and the conflicts that spurn from it... which I believe is part of the reasoning for islamic extremists..
and inventing and implementing new sources of energy is the answer

And closer than using tried and true technologies to tap enough oil to last for decades at current usage.

 

[spanko]

I just wonder when the two parties will get their collective s#&! together and say both options are viable, drilling will take less time to implement and have an impact, but new sources need to be put on a fast track also, so let's start DOING BOTH AND STOP SITTING BACK AND ARGUING!!!!!

 

[jerthunter]

Sure, the reason I give can be considered vague, but I believe that is because the causes of anything in this world are rather complex. If you decide to blame only one thing and say 'everything is about oil' you're missing out on a lot of other factors.
And again, it wouldn't matter if it was solely about oil or not. Oil would not make any war justified or unjustified.