schiavo

pwnag3!!

Member
Will you people ever learn?
This is a family matter. The government does not need to be into any family matters. Things like this happen all the time. People have decisions to make wheteher or not they should pull the plug.
Just because she is a retard and her family doesnt want her to go.... everyone makes a big deal about it.
Would you want all these people in your personal matters. Probably not.
 

lionkiller

Member
I agree the courts should stay out of it, normally.
I agree it is your decision.
I agree you have the right to live or die if you so choose.
However, Shiavo didn't have these wishes expressed in a legal document. Poses a big problem. Especially when the family is squabbling over what encompasses Life Support. That is why the courts were brought in. This was not your typical situation.
The husband had moved on with his life by having a girlfriend and kids. Everyone keeps bringing up he turned down money to let her live. This suppossedly shows he truly had her desires at heart. I have a hard time buying this because he was her sole benificiary for her life insurance policy. Think about it, why not deny the obcene amount of money offerred to you to "look good in the media"? You know you are going to receive a fairly large sum anyway when she dies. This is not a clear cut case. There are to many things involved that cast doubt about intent or desire. That is why this case caused a huge debate across the country.
Their are people allowed to die all the time. No living will even. But the ENTIRE family agreed to pull the plug. I have no problem with these decisions. But, when you have such a huge gap between the family members.....that causes problems, debates, and brings in the courts.
As for the comments towards my post about medicine. How many medical advances have we had in the last fifty years compared to the previous 1500 years? Our technology and understanding is getting better and more in depth by the day, not the year or century. So yes, a medical breakthrough can be found in a blink of an eye. By this statement I mean you blink, then before the next blink a person discovers something or has a profound thought, thus a medical breakthrough in a blink of an eye.
People have died of cancer still, but more and more are living. Something that was unheard of before. That was also my point.
 

farmboy

Active Member
Hey if we had just elected KERRY, people like Christopher Reeves would get out of their wheelchairs and walk.
.....Well, that's what edwards said anyway....
NVMYCJ
CONTENTED:
feeling or manifesting satisfaction with one's possessions, status, or situation
SATISFACTION:
2 a : fulfillment of a need or want b : the quality or state of being satisfied : CONTENTMENT c : a source or means of enjoyment
Sounds more like feeling than thinking.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by Lionkiller
However, Shiavo didn't have these wishes expressed in a legal document. Poses a big problem.

You mean in a written document.
I'm sure other states are different but a living will isn't a legal document in Florida. Writing down your wishes is certainly advisable but it's just a piece of paper used to communicate your wishes. A medical proxy is a legal document though. In Florida with no documented Medical Proxy the next-of-kin becomes the medical proxy. That would be her husband. The burden of all of Terry's medical decisions were his and his alone. The state, feds and everyone else should have stayed out of it.
 

lionkiller

Member
I agree with you Bang Guy. The law is the law. But as a free society we have a right to challenge those laws through our constitution given rights. Such as Courts, senate hearings and so forth. This would have never happennned if the parents hadn't fought for what they believed was their rights. The government would have never stepped in or even blinked an eye at it, had it only been protesters appossed to what the shiavo family wanted done.
Remember it was once law where a White man could own and control that which is of a black man. How did this change? Through court actions, senate hearings, and oh yeah, the government stepping towhat at the time was believed to be personal issues.
I know many of you are going to argue that it is different as we are talking apples and oranges. But not really. During the time it was very similar. Suddennly the government was getting involved with people's lives and livelihoods when the practice had been ok for many years.
That is the beauty of this country. By lobbying courts and congress you can challenge things to change for the better, maybe. If government totally stays out of it, even against the behest of a large group of people, possibly a majority, we know longer have a government created by the people, for the people. You see, the government had no choice but to get involved. It is their job whether you like it or not, because the people demanded it. They got involved and nothing changed, however. So what harm was their by them coming involved....did anyone get hurt? Did the outcome change? No, but we did learn a lot about our legal system and how government was ran.......if you payed attention.
The whole concern seems to be for Terry Shiavo and I understand that...but how did the governments actions hurt her?
 

knots

Member

Originally posted by NVMYCJ
I thought we resolved this hearsay issue.....
Didn't BangGuy say something about mom and husband testifying in court about Terri not wanting to be kept alive by artificial means?
If that's the case, then why in the hell is this such an issue? If it's true, it needs to be a closed case.


I'm sure Bang is a great guy but just because someone says something doesn't make it correct. I'm sure you understand that. I even asked him if he knew where he heard it. Because I would probably change what I think if it came from a reliable source. That has been my complaint this whole time is that somebody decided Terri's fate but nobody knows what she really wanted.
I did find one site that has a lengthy article on the subject. I won't say anything about it but it does have some very interesting things to say. I got it off Google.I encourage everyone to read it.
Sorry, I don't know if it is going to be a link or not. I'm not sure how to do it.
 

broncofish

Active Member
I have trouble believing anything form that news source. I will not eveen click on that link. World Net Daily were the same people that reported that:
"Terri Cried out and shouted she wanted to live" after they told her they were removing the feeding tube.
 

lionkiller

Member
The story can be cross referenced on quite few points by other news sources...thus making it valid and therefore factual. Read it, it just might make you wonder a bit.
 

broncofish

Active Member

Originally posted by Lionkiller
The story can be cross referenced on quite few points by other news sources...thus making it valid and therefore factual. Read it, it just might make you wonder a bit.

It would no sooner read something from that politcaly slanted rag, than i would from a rag slanted in the other direction, like mother jones etc... I will stick with reputable news sources that keep their opinions seperate from their reporting
 

broncofish

Active Member

Originally posted by Lionkiller
Like NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC, Or CNN?
Good luck...lol

I said read, I don't watch TV news, besides the occasional PBS
 

knots

Member
I don't know if they are reputable or not. I have never even heard of them. But I do know their information matches other sites I was looking at. So if they all don't tell the truth then we really have a problem. I picked that one because it had so much info.
bronco, Tell me where you get your info so I can check it out. I would hate to think that you're one of those people that just talk bad about something but don't really have anything productive to add. Try helping the rest of us out with some "good" info. I know I'm interested.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by Pontius
It is also illegal to have two spouses. And when you live with a woman for a certain amount of time, have children with her, and very likely own property with her, that is considered a marriage in most states,

Florida is not one of those states.
 

wrassecal

Active Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
You mean in a written document.
I'm sure other states are different but a living will isn't a legal document in Florida. Writing down your wishes is certainly advisable but it's just a piece of paper used to communicate your wishes. A medical proxy is a legal document though. In Florida with no documented Medical Proxy the next-of-kin becomes the medical proxy. That would be her husband. The burden of all of Terry's medical decisions were his and his alone. The state, feds and everyone else should have stayed out of it.

Have any of you been the family member/medical proxy/power of attorney in a situation similar to this?
I have and it was even worse. I had an ex sister-in-law that was in the final stages of Frederichs Ataxia, a form of muscular dystrophy. She lost her little brother to drug addiction, her mother to alcholism and when her father died from a heart attack there was no one to take care of her. They had her in a nursing home when she was 28 years old. I came back into her life after a 10 year absence. She couldn't walk, couldn't feed herself, couldn't do anything for herself and no one could understand her when she spoke. Opposite from Terry her brain was in perfect condition as was her heart and her soul.
With the help of many state agencies I got her into an apartment for the handicapped, round the clock nursing care and I took over carrying out all HER decisions for her. She lived 2 years after that and had 2 wishes. Die in her own apartment and not be in horrible pain. She knew she would probably die from aspiration, knew that every muscle in her body would hurt with unbearable pain and she would not be able to communicate. She knew that there probably would be no "miracle cure" for her disease and had a living will.
When it came down to the last few months of her life I knew exactly what to do. Not because she could write a detailed list of what she considered life support and what she didn't and what point I should just keep injecting the morphine to keep her out of pain even though I risked killing her by lowering her respiration or just downright overdosing her. I knew that at the end I couldn't as much as call 911 because a living will is useless if you call 911, they must use all life saving measures.I knew from detailed conversations over the first year of the 2 years (I spent enough time with her to understand her speech at that point) I was so scared during the last couple of months that I wouldn't be strong enough to carry out her wishes. I made many 4 am phone calls to the doctor terrified that I would kill her with narcotics because she would continue to scream in the most inhuman sounds imaginable. I almost lost my mind wanting to call 911 and let someone else take over. She couldn't communicate at all the last few months. I thank God that she had a wonderful and loving Doctor and Priest to help me and her.
What if an aunt, an uncle or some cousin had challenged the decisions? What if someone wanted to wait for that miracle cure? Challenged why I had any right with no blood relationship and a 10 year absence from her life? Getting my name on her checking account? Obtaining her power of attorney? What if someone wanted to sue me? Ruin my whole life? What if someone accused me of murder? Did I have written proof of her wishes? NO but, I knew them down to the last detail of what song she wanted played at her funeral, which I had to arrange also.
Terry's case scares me. Mistakes will be made by families, terrible ones but, not as widely as the precedent set by this. Each case is unique. These things don't belong in the courts at all in my opinion and now even fed level can get involved. How many people will not agree to help someone out of fear of the new legal ramifications of their actions? We have too few people willing to take on the care of terminal patients as it is.
Jamie died a horrible death at age 38 but by God she died in her own apartment, with her beloved cat laying on her chest, exactly the way she told me, her doctor and her priest, two years earlier she wanted to die. The two years I spent coordinating Jamie's health care and following through to ensure that she had the quality of life and quality of death that she wanted are the two most important years of my life. Jamie thought I was wonderful to take care of her. I think Jamie was wonderful to allow me be part of her couragous journey. I am a better person because of her.
 

lovethesea

Active Member
....and may God bless you Debi....I went through something similar with my grandpa with his illness. Its tough when someone is suffering a painful end, but you know if a phone call is made, their wishes will be washed away in a sea of politics.
He had a wonderful Doctor....he told my grandpa about his pain

[hr]
.....if you need them, take this, if you don't.....keep them for the really bad days.
Terri was not aware of anything. But for the rest who are and the families/friends that are left to tend to their end of life, we are only concerned with them leaving this earth content and happy that their wishes were fullfilled......we are better people for it. I would not wish what I/you had to go through with my grandpa on anyone....but I would do it again in a minute.
 

knots

Member
That is a great story and there is no doubt in my mind that you are a better person because of Jamie. Jamie in a way was lucky, she got to die the way she wanted to thanks to you. Not many of us will get to decide how or where we will die.
But unlike Jamie, nobody really knows what Terri's wishes were. I have not seen or heard any evidence that Terri said she wanted to die if something happened to her. Everything I have seen is nothing more than heresay and opinions. Each side says something different and each side I think is stretching the truth to fit their need.
I personally think Terri never told anybody anything about what she wanted done if this were to happen because it's just not something that people really talk about unless something like this happens.
I have researched the subject and haven't seen proof on either side. From what I have read I feel the husband wanted her dead for the money. So until I see some proof otherwise I guess I will keep with my opinion that the husband is nothing but a money hungry scum of the earth.
If someone could point me in another direction with facts (not opinions) to change my mind I would appreciate it.
And Bang it sure does sound like the husband was within his rights to have her put to death but that still doesn't make it right. I think his motives were suspicious enough for the government to get involved.
 

lovethesea

Active Member
please explain the money that you keep bringing up. I explained earlier in the posts that what is left from the malpractice is not worth even talking about. That is being donated. And at the early age that she was, I can tell you they probably didn't have a million dollar life insurance policy in place.
 

farmboy

Active Member
Touching story Wrassecal.
It is evident to see how Terri and your friend Jamie changed peoples lives. They had a profound impact on us. Even though we may not have thought they were living well.
". . .when I was sick you took care of me. . ."
God bless.
 
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