lionkiller
Member
If I am "brain dead" does it really matter? I wouldn't know.
schiavo
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bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by lovethesea
just answer this question.....would you want to be in the state Terry has been in and would have been for the next 20-30 years?
Actually, it really doesn't matter. What matters is what Terry wanted. 5 people, including her mother and her husband, testified in court, under oath, that she told them she did not want to be kept alive by "artificial means".
The question is "What did Terry want".
lionkiller
Member
Bang Guy, I agree with you to a point. If that is what she wanted and her mom did testify to that (which for some reason I never heard and thought she testified otherwise) then so be her wishes.
I just don't like the ramifications of this legally. To many loop holes openned up. This is no different than assisted suicide, which is incidentally illegal.
I just don't like the ramifications of this legally. To many loop holes openned up. This is no different than assisted suicide, which is incidentally illegal.
bang guy
Moderator
Well, her mother disagreed as to what "Artificial" means. I see her point. I don't consider food & water to be all that artificial.
That's why her Medical Proxy made the ultimate decision.
For the record, I do not see why assisted suicide is illegal in many cases. Definately not in all cases but I have no idea where to draw the line.
Those that have been in agony for years with no hope of relief probably know where to draw the line, someone should ask them.
That's why her Medical Proxy made the ultimate decision.
For the record, I do not see why assisted suicide is illegal in many cases. Definately not in all cases but I have no idea where to draw the line.
Those that have been in agony for years with no hope of relief probably know where to draw the line, someone should ask them.
lefty
Active Member
Originally posted by Lionkiller
This is no different than assisted suicide, which is incidentally illegal.
People who ask for assistance when committing suicide usually aren't in a vegetative state. I wouldn't compare a person with a sound mind and body to someone like Terri. For one, Terri did not have the physical or mental capacity to do anything, besides breathe on her own and suffer from worsening conditions as time went on. You're comparing a person with a functioning mind and body to someone who was alive but not living. In my opinion, a beating heart and the ability to carry out basic bodily functions alone does not equate life. Keeping her around another few decades would've been going against her wishes even more. Our bodies are nothing more than the shell we reside in. Our mind is who we are. Usually a person looking for a date would rather be with someone who liked them for their mind over their body, correct? Terri's mind was irreversibly damaged. She wasn't Terri anymore. Just a functioning body with no quality of life whatsoever.
I guess this could get into the ethical debate of what constitutes life, but in my opinion, Terri had already been gone for quite some time.
-lefty
lovethesea
Active Member
Originally posted by Bang Guy
Actually, it really doesn't matter. What matters is what Terry wanted. 5 people, including her mother and her husband, testified in court, under oath, that she told them she did not want to be kept alive by "artificial means".
The question is "What did Terry want".
exactly.......my question was posed because it seems that some feel that we should lie around in these suspended states and await a miracle against our wishes just because a family member/s doesn't want to let us go.
lovethesea
Active Member
Originally posted by Lionkiller
If I am "brain dead" does it really matter? I wouldn't know.
it would to your family and to the many people it would require to care for you.
farmboy
Active Member
Many of us keep simple animals in our glass boxes. Some have very little brain power. A friend of mine had a star fish that would climb the snails on the glass of his tank like a ladder. Seems pretty smart to me. The star fish probably didn't realise his poor quality of life compare to say a fish.
I with you all on making your own decisions . . . Just don't tell me or let the GOverment tell me I don't have a good enough life to keep living.
What's next? Granny is just miserable in the nursing home. We should just let her go. . . .
I with you all on making your own decisions . . . Just don't tell me or let the GOverment tell me I don't have a good enough life to keep living.
What's next? Granny is just miserable in the nursing home. We should just let her go. . . .
lefty
Active Member
It is unfair to compare the quality of life of one creature to another. A sea star climbing all over a tank is a top quality life for them. A woman with little brain capacity who is unable to be physically active is not living a top quality life (for a human).
The government won't tell you whether you have the right to live or not if you make a living will and clearly express your wishes. If you want to live like Terri for decades, should you get into that situation, then feel free to do so.
The main thing here is that she didn't want to live this way. She had the right to choose, and she did.
-lefty
The government won't tell you whether you have the right to live or not if you make a living will and clearly express your wishes. If you want to live like Terri for decades, should you get into that situation, then feel free to do so.
The main thing here is that she didn't want to live this way. She had the right to choose, and she did.
-lefty
knots
Member
Originally posted by lovethesea
it would to your family and to the many people it would require to care for you.
If my family wanted to have hope and keep me alive then by all means keep me alive. And those "many people" that would have to take care of me, they get paid for taking of me.
I haven't heard of one doctor or nurse that took care of Terri that said they were tired of taking care of her.
And Bang, where did you read or hear about Terri's Mom and the others who testified in court about what she had said. I would really like to read that. I haven't been able to find anything like that.
farmboy
Active Member
Originally posted by lefty
It is unfair to compare the quality of life of one creature to another. A sea star climbing all over a tank is a top quality life for them. A woman with little brain capacity who is unable to be physically active is not living a top quality life (for a human).
I agree with you. The point was brain power doesn't = life or living.
The government won't tell you whether you have the right to live or not if you make a living will and clearly express your wishes.
I DO NOT like "Ifs" where legality is in play. But yes i agree with the living will. Your decision-not someone elses.
The main thing here is that she didn't want to live this way. She had the right to choose, and she did.
-lefty
What if she changed her mind. . . .
lionkiller
Member
To Lovethesea:
it would to your family and to the many people it would require to care for you.
You asked ME what I would want done with myself in that situation. I told you since I was "brain dead" I wouldn't care. Now you are asking me what my family would want done essentially. This decision is made for myself by myself. Is this a decision for me or my family? I believe it is for me. Correct? So their wishes or concerns don't matter.
For example, if my family felt I was basically dead, they could justr not come to the Hospice anymore and live their lives as if I was dead. Once again, I wouldn't know or care because I am "brain dead". As for the people that are required to take care of me (IE. nurses, doctors, orderlies) hate to put it this way but, It is their job.
I get back to one of my main points though. Do any of you KNOW FOR SURE that this is what Terri wanted, exactly what she wanted? Where is your proof? The words of someone else? This is my problem, Hearsay or testimony alone never gets anyone convicted in a court of law, you need more evidence (physical) for that. But in this case, that was good enough. Something very wtrong with that.
it would to your family and to the many people it would require to care for you.
You asked ME what I would want done with myself in that situation. I told you since I was "brain dead" I wouldn't care. Now you are asking me what my family would want done essentially. This decision is made for myself by myself. Is this a decision for me or my family? I believe it is for me. Correct? So their wishes or concerns don't matter.
For example, if my family felt I was basically dead, they could justr not come to the Hospice anymore and live their lives as if I was dead. Once again, I wouldn't know or care because I am "brain dead". As for the people that are required to take care of me (IE. nurses, doctors, orderlies) hate to put it this way but, It is their job.
I get back to one of my main points though. Do any of you KNOW FOR SURE that this is what Terri wanted, exactly what she wanted? Where is your proof? The words of someone else? This is my problem, Hearsay or testimony alone never gets anyone convicted in a court of law, you need more evidence (physical) for that. But in this case, that was good enough. Something very wtrong with that.
nvmycj
Member
(Sorry,....I've been out of the loop for a couple of days)
Lionkiller: Some answers to your questions. YOU and ONLY YOU determine YOUR quality of life. When you are incapable of expressing this determination of life to others, you rely on your loved one's understanding of what you would've considered "quality of life." Not the government, state, or some damn "Rev." Jesse Jackson. When one gets married, the law says, you give that right to your spouse, giving it up to anyone else. Your spouse IS YOUR next of kin.
As far as the world was thought to be flat at one time being a scientific fact, true........however,.look how many hundreds of years it took us to figure out it was round. Just in case you didn't know, people do die of cancer. The one's that survived, survived only after YEARS of research and experimental studies.
If one wants to bring religion into this arguement, that's an ENTIRELY whole other ball of wax. Look at the infinite amount of religions we can consider,.....so let's not.
"medical breakthroughs happen in a blink of an eye...." uh...no they don't.
Farmboy: "Maybe she was content with being surrounded by folks loving and caring for her." Oh, c'mon. You've got to be kidding me. In order to be content, you'd have to have a thought process. Sorry, not likely.
Knots: Of course you haven't heard of people saying that they're tired of taking care of Terri. That would be a VERY bad public relations issue for their nursing home. And they'd probably lose their job. We do NOT ever get tired of taking care of these patients, but we do feel terribly for them. Being an ER nurse for almost ten years, I've seen families bring in their loved ones that have similar conditions as Terri did. Eventually, they'd get some other nosocomial infection, develop sepsis, have to be intubated, get a tracheostomy, start developing bedsores..... and the list goes on and on. It's very sad to say, but I've seen this happen..........the only reason they keep their "loved one" alive is that the courts keeping paying them their restitution from they law suit. When their child or other loved one dies, the law suit checks stop coming in the mail. I see this all tooooo often.
Once you're in the box of health care, it's easier to understand cases like Terri's, versus those that are standing outside of the box, looking in.
Lionkiller: Some answers to your questions. YOU and ONLY YOU determine YOUR quality of life. When you are incapable of expressing this determination of life to others, you rely on your loved one's understanding of what you would've considered "quality of life." Not the government, state, or some damn "Rev." Jesse Jackson. When one gets married, the law says, you give that right to your spouse, giving it up to anyone else. Your spouse IS YOUR next of kin.
As far as the world was thought to be flat at one time being a scientific fact, true........however,.look how many hundreds of years it took us to figure out it was round. Just in case you didn't know, people do die of cancer. The one's that survived, survived only after YEARS of research and experimental studies.
If one wants to bring religion into this arguement, that's an ENTIRELY whole other ball of wax. Look at the infinite amount of religions we can consider,.....so let's not.
"medical breakthroughs happen in a blink of an eye...." uh...no they don't.
Farmboy: "Maybe she was content with being surrounded by folks loving and caring for her." Oh, c'mon. You've got to be kidding me. In order to be content, you'd have to have a thought process. Sorry, not likely.
Knots: Of course you haven't heard of people saying that they're tired of taking care of Terri. That would be a VERY bad public relations issue for their nursing home. And they'd probably lose their job. We do NOT ever get tired of taking care of these patients, but we do feel terribly for them. Being an ER nurse for almost ten years, I've seen families bring in their loved ones that have similar conditions as Terri did. Eventually, they'd get some other nosocomial infection, develop sepsis, have to be intubated, get a tracheostomy, start developing bedsores..... and the list goes on and on. It's very sad to say, but I've seen this happen..........the only reason they keep their "loved one" alive is that the courts keeping paying them their restitution from they law suit. When their child or other loved one dies, the law suit checks stop coming in the mail. I see this all tooooo often.
Once you're in the box of health care, it's easier to understand cases like Terri's, versus those that are standing outside of the box, looking in.
nvmycj
Member
I thought we resolved this hearsay issue.....
Didn't BangGuy say something about mom and husband testifying in court about Terri not wanting to be kept alive by artificial means?
If that's the case, then why in the hell is this such an issue? If it's true, it needs to be a closed case.
Didn't BangGuy say something about mom and husband testifying in court about Terri not wanting to be kept alive by artificial means?
If that's the case, then why in the hell is this such an issue? If it's true, it needs to be a closed case.