schiavo

[bang guy]

Those are all good question that nobody can answer. That's why it was left to her medical Proxy to make those choices for her. The judge order that the advise of her medical proxy be followed.
I don't believe she was brain dead.
I believe her brain capacity was diminished beyond the point where she could make decisions.
She was ordered not to be fed because that was the advise of her medical proxy.
I believe she was given morphine to make her parents feel better.
Brain dead people cannot feel pain but I don't think she was brain dead. I don't think she could feel pain either but that is purely speculation.
It's an important issue. IMO the government should not be allowed to keep me alive against my wishes when I state my wishes with sound mind.

 

[farmboy]

It was a terrible situation for Michael and Terry's Family. Decision were made that no one wants to make. I believe there has been a lot of good dialogue about life I'm sure with the increased awareness of "Living wills", etc., This will spare many more families from the ORDEAL.

 

[lovethesea]

more the reason for the govn't to stay out of it. Now someone is barking about having some of the judges fired/impeached (or whatever the leagal word is). Just nuts. If Terry had her tube re-inserted based on the courts ruling it would have been a terrible precdent for all of us who have these legal documents in place. Lets say I don't get along with someone in my family.....something terrible happens to me......my husband tries to follow my legal wishes.......since the courts would now have the Shiavo precedent, lord only knows where my wishes could be taken.
This is/was a terrible thing for all involved, but I do think her husband handled it well. Hopefully her family will come to peace with this. This was no way for any human to be kept alive. Sadly I don't think we have heard the last of her family.

 

[nvmycj]

Farmboy,
To answer some of your questions.....
1. If she were given food/liquids by mouth, she would've inhaled the food/liquids into her lungs, causing aspiration pneumonia, and in her condition, she probably would've got intubated and died shortly afterward. Might've been a good idea, come to think about it. A patient without a "gag reflex" is unable to secure his/her airway. Therefore, anything that goes into your mouth, goes into your lungs and hopefully some into your stomach.
2. Remember,...having "life" does not necessarily mean "living"
3. Brain dead people don't eat.......they get nurished, or the receive nurishment, artificially.

 

[reefraff]

For better or worse the government created a law requiring the federal courts to reveiw the evidence in this case. Those judges who refused to enforce that law should be removed from the bench. I don't see where the state judges did anything wrong.

 

[lovethesea]

Originally posted by NVMYCJ
1. If she were given food/liquids by mouth, she would've inhaled the food/liquids into her lungs, causing aspiration pneumonia, and in her condition, she probably would've got intubated and died shortly afterward. Might've been a good idea, come to think about it. A patient without a "gag reflex" is unable to secure his/her airway. Therefore, anything that goes into your mouth, goes into your lungs and hopefully some into your stomach.

thats why it was so scarey when they were arresting people trying to break into the hospise to give Terry water or some sort of liquified food. They did not understand they she could not or never would be able to receive foods/liquid by mouth.

 

[lovethesea]

Sadly they will spend of ton of money reviewing this case only to come to the conclusion that no matter what, this was a private matter and the federal and state level of our systems have no right to step in. It happens daily in hospitals and nursing homes. I am also under the impression that the morphine is givin to help slow things down.

 

[farmboy]

Thanks for the heads up NVMYCJ.
Too late to prevent a large political melee but we don't want judges telling us when life doesn't mean living.

 

[nvmycj]

Lovethesea....
You're right......too many people involved in this case. Especially, like you were saying, the demonstrators in front of their house/hospice. Maybe they should've let the demonstrators feed her, and then watch her choke, gag, and sufficate (sp?) on the very food they served her. Again, ignorance is bliss.
And maybe they should've given her Morphine. Suppress her already weak respirations, and she would've stopped breathing on her own.
Love your loved owns like it's your last day with them. Not to take away from Tim McGraw,....but "live like you are dying..." Cherish EVERY moment with your families, spouses,
children.... and respect their dying wishes as if they were your own. God bless us all.....we need it!

 

[lionkiller]

A couple questions. What determines quality of life? Is your answer universal for everyone? Have you ever said something or believed something when you were younger, and then later in life changed your belief in this?
Brain cells do not reproduce is a scientific fact, now. Remember, the world being flat was a scientific fact at a certain point in time.
If you contracted small pox you died used to be a scientific fact, also.
If you contracted cancer you would die, used to also be a scientific fact.
What happenned to all of these scientific facts? Oh yeah, science found out otherwise or, ways to correct the ailment.
How many times has science found out otherwise?
I can list thousands of scientific facts that are no longer facts.
Science is no different than any religion. You can have faith in it, but do you truly KNOW!
Funny, living is the only way to find out if science is wrong and dying is the only way to find out if religion is wrong.
A sidenote, I would love to touch onm the presidential debate that started in this thread,but that is another topic.

 

[knots]

Good words Lion.

 

[molamola]

:yes: :yes: :yes: I'll second that.

 

[lovethesea]

so we just all lay in this hopeful suspended state waiting for this scientic miracle? Where do we go? There are roughly 1,000 people a day having their last wishes granted.
Terry waited 15 years.....
Lets say science does come up with some sort of TINY restoritive brain tissue. After 15 plus years (or many more accroding to your wish) in this state what are we with this? Do you think Terri's family was going to let her be the guinea pig?
Presidental debate didn't start this thread.......a person just asked the question.

 

[farmboy]

If you believe in the after life, (I DO!) heaven can wait.
If not (SAD), why not hang around?
There seemed to have been an urgency to this. Yes I know even after 15 years. Maybe the urgency was from the passions this kind of situation draws from people.
There are many facets to the debate.--
Ethical--Spiritual--Legal--Just to name a few. Religion and politics are probably the 2 hottest topics to discuss. . . .Even on a FISH board!

 

[knots]

Originally posted by lovethesea
so we just all lay in this hopeful suspended state waiting for this scientic miracle? Where do we go? There are roughly 1,000 people a day having their last wishes granted.
Terry waited 15 years.....
If that is their wish in writing then I agree we should let them die. With Terri my question has always been did she really want to die? The husband says one thing 15 years ago and now says something else. The parents say she told them something. If it is not in writing how can you believe what either side says. This debate will go on for a long time but we will never know what the real truth is because Terri is dead. Every person is different and so each person has to be treated separately.
Personally I know I get to be with my Lord if I die so I wouldn't want to be kept alive but other people who don't know where they will be going or what happens after death may think differently. It's a personal choice that has to be in writing. Or this will happen all over again.

 

[pontius]

Originally posted by Farmboy
One could argue that life for an ocean dwelling creature living in a 55 gallon box of water is a diminished quality of life.
I would point out that in this situation, with a knowledgable aquarist, most would consider to be a luxurious life because most fish are quickly preyed upon by larger fish in the ocean and a great deal of ocean wildlife lives on the brink of starvation. in a 55 gallon "box of water", most fish are fed way more than they need and are protected from predators.
anyway, this thread has gone from Schiavo to animal rights to Iraq and pretty much everything in between. she's dead, that's pretty much the end of it.

 

[lionkiller]

so we just all lay in this hopeful suspended state waiting for this scientic miracle? Where do we go? There are roughly 1,000 people a day having their last wishes granted.

I am not saying you have to wait around. I am just pointing out that facts seem to change over time. I am pointing out that miracles and medical breakthroughs happen in a blink of an eye.
If Terry wished to die, fine. I respect that. If in fact she wanted to die. But once again, can anyone prove she wanted to live or die? There is nothing in writing, anywhere expressing these wishes. So once again, how do you KNOW? Because her husband says so? Can he prove it other than by forms of hearsay? No he can't. The parents can't prove their side either. Both parties are at a loss with providing the proof. The thing I am against is, in this case, we opted not on the side of caution, but on a reckless side. Now that she is dead, no one will ever know. Had she lived, maybe we would have found out.
This whole thing opens the door for a lot of other scenarios that courts will have to rule on. Here is a stretch but not a totally unfathomable scenario.
Police show up to a murder scene. There is a young lady that has been suffocated by a pillow. The Husband is found on the floor crying. The police cuff him and Hall him away. His lawyers argues his wife didn't wish to live anymore and wanted her husband to suffocate her. The defense can produce a note that has been notarized even and signed by the dead wife. The wife sufferred from Heroin addiction on and off for many years. She never got away from it and it was causing her to go into great depressions. Even to the point where she stopped taking care of herself and her Husband had to care for her.
Should the husband have carried out her wishes? They had tried a number of therapies and councelors to get her off the habit, but nothing was working. Should the husband have tried more therapy with his wife? Should the Husband have waited to see if medicine came out with a new drug to help get off Heroin?
Is the Husband guilty of murder?
How is this case that much different from Shiavo's?
Next case. The murder seen. The wife is dead by suffocation again. Nothing wrong with her. But she just didn't feel like living anymore and asked her husband to help her kill herself. Once again, there is a signed document expressing her wish to die by her husband's hands.
Should her husband have killed her? Is he guilty of murder?
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Have you made your choice? What is it?
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The letter in case one was faked......does this change your mind?

 

[nw2sltfsh]

Originally posted by Lionkiller
Is the Husband guilty of murder?
How is this case that much different from Shiavo's?
The letter in case one was faked......does this change your mind?
Are you seriously comparing that to what this family went through? In both of your cases the wife was able to end her own life if she so choose to do so.
In Terri's case her only choice was to have another person decide for her. - your comparison would only be valid if Terri had the option of sitting up and eating a cheeseburger

 

[lionkiller]

No, you missed the point entirely. My point was, in all three cases a persons life was taken suppossedly based off of her wishes. Shiavo's life was taken because that is what was suspected she wanted. I used the same basic idea, and placed it into two other situations....do you nopt see the legal ramifications the ruling in the shiavo case may have?
Shiavo wanted to have her life ended. Right? That is the whole basis of the arguement. What if other people want their life to end but aren't in the same predicament? What is someone commits blatant murder then doctors up a note expressing the "wishes" of the deceased?
That is my whole point. The legal ramifications.....and precidents this might open up.
I mean, if someone can cook up a PTS Disorder as a defense for a murder trial, I am sure a few people can use this.
PTS= Post Tramatic Slave disorder. I do believe we haven't had slaves for a longtime.....

 

[lovethesea]

both cases the person was alive and well (not in a forever vegatative state with no hope of recovery......as least not in their life time)
just answer this question.....would you want to be in the state Terry has been in and would have been for the next 20-30 years?