T5 vs Metal Halide debate answered

acrylic51

Active Member
Again you guys are missing the whole picture when it comes to lighting......It's not about Lux, Lumens, Watts, it's all about PAR.....T5's are super don't get me wrong, but there is more to it than just the bulb....The ballast and reflector combinations have to be factor into the equation to get optimal results.....
 

tx reef

Active Member
If one more person posts something about lumens I am going to scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PAR, PAR, PAR!
What is important is the amount of USABLE light that penetrates the water a any given depth. What good is a super bright light if it can't provide usable light at the depth you need?
Quit arguing about lumens. Focus on PAR.
 

tx reef

Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
Again you guys are missing the whole picture when it comes to lighting......It's not about Lux, Lumens, Watts, it's all about PAR.....T5's are super don't get me wrong, but there is more to it than just the bulb....The ballast and reflector combinations have to be factor into the equation to get optimal results.....

Beat me to it.
I need to learn to type faster.... :hilarious
 

acrylic51

Active Member
I'm just mistified, how people keep talking about lumens and if they would just pick up an article and read and realize that lumens doesn't mean squat in reef lighting.........These lighting engineers aren't experts in this field and the lights aren't engineered specifically for this application........
Again Lumens measures the total amount of light a lamp is capable of generating....This reference term for aquarium puposes is somewhat misleading because it is geared to what the human eye perceives, which is more sensitive to midrange colors in the visible spectrum.....(e.g. green, yellow). Aquarium lamps, especially for reef aquariums are tuned more towards the blue wavelengths, the value of usingthe concept of lumens fraquarium purposes remains qestionable.....Yet it does present a better way than solely using wattage to judge the value of a lamp for a specific task...........
PAR
Photosynthetically Active Radiation measures light intensity over the visible spectrum (400 to 700 nm), which is somewhat different from lux that reports the intensity o those wavelengths to which the human eye is most sensitive (largely the green wavelengths.) It can be said that PAR is keyed to photosynthetic respons whereas lumens is keyed to human eye response......
Therefore as the PAR value increases, more useable light will penetrate into the aquarium, resulting in improved photosynthesis. PAR is measured in units called micro-Einsteins per square meter per second..........
 

squishy

Member
I thought this was a dead horse issue and was settled on the first page.
But I guess not and will continue to watch this thread ***)
 

taznut

Active Member
ok i am new at this but... i have read about 70 of these posts and i guess i dont understand why it matters which is better??? do you like the way the light YOU are using works??? isnt that what matters??? oh and can some one tell me what i have... it is 130 watts, has two bulbs (i think 50/50, half blue half white)... im guessing MH but i dont know for sure...
 

fishieness

Active Member
it absolutly does matter. esspecialy when you are keeping the higher light demanding corals.anenomes,clams ect. one is goign to give you more power for a lower electrical bill, or even a lower fixture cost.
as far as your bulb, i am not sure. how long are the bulbs? you could have a single long PC bulb which does look like two different bulbs to someone who isnt familiar with them. does it plug in on one side?
also, you could have two VHO bulbs that are 24"s for a total of 130 watts.
besides that, im not sure what other combinations of one size and type of bulb you can have. but it is not MH.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Originally Posted by Squishy
I thought this was a dead horse issue and was settled on the first page.
But I guess not and will continue to watch this thread ***)
It should be a dead issue, but people just keep bring idiotic points that don't amass to anything, because they keep trying to relate studies or points or graphs that lighting engineers or studies show....They don't show crap related to the aquarium use, and my point is what they are showing on those graphs is what the eye sees, not what is benefical to the aquarium hobby, because the bulbs aren't tuned for that use or tested by the engineers with that in mind......Plus people keep talking about Lumens and Lux and again nothing to do with it......
Alot of people are confused when it comes to buying lights....alot don't even know what to look for other than kelvin ratings and such......They try to pic a bulb that is appealing to their eye rather than the needs of their animals.....with that said....you should match your bulbs to your ballast to give you the most or highest PAR value obtainable, and bulbs react and results are different between ballast bulb combinations.....So to even say they are better and just as good is a far cry.......Yes tanks can be run on T5' and it has been done with SPS tanks......but far and few and you wonder why?
 

hot883

Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
It should be a dead issue, but people just keep bring idiotic points that don't amass to anything, because they keep trying to relate studies or points or graphs that lighting engineers or studies show....They don't show crap related to the aquarium use, and my point is what they are showing on those graphs is what the eye sees, not what is benefical to the aquarium hobby, because the bulbs aren't tuned for that use or tested by the engineers with that in mind......Plus people keep talking about Lumens and Lux and again nothing to do with it......
Alot of people are confused when it comes to buying lights....alot don't even know what to look for other than kelvin ratings and such......They try to pic a bulb that is appealing to their eye rather than the needs of their animals.....with that said....you should match your bulbs to your ballast to give you the most or highest PAR value obtainable, and bulbs react and results are different between ballast bulb combinations.....So to even say they are better and just as good is a far cry.......Yes tanks can be run on T5' and it has been done with SPS tanks......but far and few and you wonder why?
So where does one find the perfect bulb, ballast combo? Is there a chart or anything?
 

fishieness

Active Member
Originally Posted by hot883
So where does one find the perfect bulb, ballast combo? Is there a chart or anything?
you need to look on your ballast. some will only fire (or only fire well) bulse start or probe start bulbs.
i have a 250 watt ARO ballast model: LN-250-02. it can fire any bulb, but my socket says "pulse rated"
 

acrylic51

Active Member
I'm not into T5's so don't have a specific site for info, other than they aren't a replacement for MH's as some may think, but if you look around at another fish site forum I"m pretty sure you could find someone with that information your looking for.......If were talking about MH's you can also go to www.cniadrianreef dot com and see that it is a science to getting the most out of your lighting other than buying a ballast and bulbs and plugging them in........on that site I listed on the right hand side of screen there is a link that says light study.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Originally Posted by fishieness
you need to look on your ballast. some will only fire (or only fire well) bulse start or probe start bulbs.
i have a 250 watt ARO ballast model: LN-250-02. it can fire any bulb, but my socket says "pulse rated"
The info stated is correct that is another issue you must look at when deciding on your combinations, because not all ballasts will fire all bulbs as stated, and some just do a better job on certain type of bulbs......
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by fishieness
it absolutly does matter. esspecialy when you are keeping the higher light demanding corals.anenomes,clams ect. one is goign to give you more power for a lower electrical bill, or even a lower fixture cost.
as far as your bulb, i am not sure. how long are the bulbs? you could have a single long PC bulb which does look like two different bulbs to someone who isnt familiar with them. does it plug in on one side?
also, you could have two VHO bulbs that are 24"s for a total of 130 watts.
besides that, im not sure what other combinations of one size and type of bulb you can have. but it is not MH.
by googling it mine looks like an LED... it is 2 bulbs... each has 2 tubes one of which is white the other blue... it is a coralife brand and it gets preaty warm... it has 2 cords that i plug in and 2 switches... i have it on a timer... 12 hours on 12 off... is this ok??? i have a sabae clown and anemone, a fox coral (i think), a chocolate star, a blue and yellow damsel...
 

hurt

Active Member

Originally Posted by TX Reef
By the way fanker, throw some par numbers at me. You always talk about how much par the T5s have, well I want numbers.
Here are your numbers, not my research by any means, but taken from GrimReefers testing done on --. These are 54w bulbs tested in which they were normally driven off a triad ballast. To give you an idea, a 250w XM 10K bulb will give off about 530 PAR off my IC MH ballast. I've seen PC PAR numbers before and they weren't even close to 1/2 of what the T-5 numbers are. When a 54w T-5 throws off 357 PAR, I'm convinced.
ATI
Sun Pro 357
Aquablue 336
Blue Plus 311
Actinic 137
D&D/Giesemann
Midday 325
Aquablue 324
Actinic Plus 264
Pure Actinic 157
UVL
Aqua sun 345
Actinic White 293
Super Actinic 210
AquaZ
Sun Pro 285
Ocean Pro 323
Blue Pro 266
Helios
Daylight 309
Super Blue 225
Current Sun Paq
Daylight 10K 272
Blue 252
GE Daylight 340
 

hurt

Active Member
As far as overdriving T-5 off an IC 660, all you have to do blow lots of air across the bulbs. Many people have gotten 12 months or better overdriving off a 660 as long as you blow the heat away. I'm not sure where the 50% loss of light in 7 months came from, unless it was an absolute cheapo bulb with no ventalation. The testing I have seen done on -- showed about 80% output after a year off a 660. Pretty darn good in my opion. On my 55g I currently run 2 250 MH's along with 2 110w superactinics off a 660. In another two months I am changing the VHO's out with T-5's for my actinics on the 660. Then I'll get to see for my self the difference.
Here is what the President of IC wrote me concerning overdriving T-5's off a 660. Also a 54w bulb will actually use around 74w off an IC 660.
"Conventional ballasts are made to run a specific lamp load and apply a specific milliamp output to the lamp's filaments. That charge goes from one end of the lamp to the other filament, aided by mercury in the gasified mixture. That bolt of energy while traveling the length of the lamp, excites the gases enough to cause them to strike the phosphorus lamp coating. If you apply too much output to the filament, it doesn't last very long. It's made to fail.
We don't do that. We send a signal more like a radio transmitter, from one filament to the other at a specific high frequency that excites the gases enough to cause them to strike the phosphorus lamp coating. As we use less voltage, our high frequency output can travel 100 feet or more vs. the usual 8 feet max a conventional ballast can tackle in distance from the ballast to the lamp. We don't over tax the filaments so all types work fine. Coincidentally, our method of lighting a fluorescent lamp, produces light more evenly across the length of the lamp. Lamp end blackening over time is diminished as we don't constantly deplete the filaments with charged particles trying to make it to the other filament only to fall short and adhere to the lamp's sides. Sudden blackening is the result of a poor connection (lamp to lamp holder or a splice between wires) and/or lamps running in an unvented fixture.
Wiring must be to the wiring diagrams we provide. Unused lamp wires must be independently capped of for possible future use. ANY perceived open circuit will cause the ballast to immediately shut down, not just off.
Our VHO ballasts, after confirming continuity exists, measure the lamp load and provide power accordingly. As the lamps heat up the load changes and the ballasts constantly adjusts to the load. Even as lamps age they change. If you re-wire from 3 to 4 lamps the ballast will produce more output to adjust to the new lamp load.
NO (normal output) lamps when overdriven per their specifications will not last 4 years on our VHO ballasts but if lamp heat is vented, they can provide reef required output for 12 to 24 months depending on the application's heat venting and brand of lamps used. Longer lamps last longer. With T5HO lamps active venting is required for maximum light output and lamp life. So there is some trade off of lamp life but not much. When it comes to Actinic lamps I recommend running them till they stop or you aren't happy with the visual effect they produce. As far as the tank's needs, if they're lit the tank is getting more than enough.
Re MH overdriving; the Kelvin (color temperature) the lamp was made to produce will change with too much power applied, there's a potential for an arc-tube to explode, and most likely the lamp will prematurely age and stop working. We once upon a time did this with 175-MH bulbs w/o a problem but we found in hindsight it was a very specific solution that worked with a few select lamps. We compensated for the overdriving by lighting the lamps at 1KV vs. 5KV conventional ballasts used and running them at >20KHz vs. 60 Hz. (or 60 on/offs per second). We now believe that with better fixtures that are more efficient and positioned lower to the water there's no need to overdrive MH bulbs. The sweeping high frequency we now use if a huge leap forward in eliminating flickering, bulb noise and being almost universally compatible.
Andy"
 

tx reef

Active Member

Originally Posted by Hurt
Here are your numbers, not my research by any means, but taken from GrimReefers testing done on --. These are 54w bulbs tested in which they were normally driven. To give you an idea, a 250w XM 10K bulb will give off about 530 PAR off my IC MH ballast. I've seen PC PAR numbers before and they weren't even close to 1/2 of what the T-5 numbers are. When a 54w T-5 throws off 357 PAR, I'm convinced.
ATI
Sun Pro 357
Aquablue 336
Blue Plus 311
Actinic 137
D&D/Giesemann
Midday 325
Aquablue 324
Actinic Plus 264
Pure Actinic 157
UVL
Aqua sun 345
Actinic White 293
Super Actinic 210
AquaZ
Sun Pro 285
Ocean Pro 323
Blue Pro 266
Helios
Daylight 309
Super Blue 225
Current Sun Paq
Daylight 10K 272
Blue 252
GE Daylight 340

That should really end this debate, but it won't.
People will argue that because they 4 bulbs, they have more PAR, but the fact is that each bulb will still only penetrate so far. You may have more usable light up top, but not down deeper.
 

butter

New Member
Par? you are not even using logic or common sense when you are talking par. You don't have the ocean in your house, this is a max 30 inch high fishtank that penetration plays in the formula. Lumens is how large manufacturers judge how well their products compete against each other. They have to penetrate 30-60 feet of ceiling to get through office funiture so you can read. When you are a multi-billion dollar business and do this for a living then talk Par, until then Lumens is what matters and Lumens is what our industry is going by. Don't give people wrong advice on the fact that you own a little bitty fishtank and think it's a reef with a homemade fixture that a real lighting expert wouldn't put in their garage.
 

hagfish

Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
Alot of people are confused when it comes to buying lights....alot don't even know what to look for other than kelvin ratings and such......They try to pic a bulb that is appealing to their eye rather than the needs of their animals.....with that said....you should match your bulbs to your ballast to give you the most or highest PAR value obtainable, and bulbs react and results are different between ballast bulb combinations.....So to even say they are better and just as good is a far cry.......Yes tanks can be run on T5' and it has been done with SPS tanks......but far and few and you wonder why?
Honestly, it would help reduce confusion if the people that sold the bulbs ever mentioned PAR ratings. I've only seen it a few times on all the sites I've looked at. As has been pointed out in this thread many times, PAR is what is important. Yet you have to dig all over the net to find PAR comparisons.
 
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