T5 vs Metal Halide debate answered

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by butter
Par? you are not even using logic or common sense when you are talking par. You don't have the ocean in your house, this is a max 30 inch high fishtank that penetration plays in the formula. Lumens is how large manufacturers judge how well their products compete against each other. They have to penetrate 30-60 feet of ceiling to get through office funiture so you can read. When you are a multi-billion dollar business and do this for a living then talk Par, until then Lumens is what matters and Lumens is what our industry is going by. Don't give people wrong advice on the fact that you own a little bitty fishtank and think it's a reef with a homemade fixture that a real lighting expert wouldn't put in their garage.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
All you lumens fanatics are soooo annoying.

 

[hurt]

As far as MH's penetrating deeper, that is only because the point source is stronger. If there was a way to make a T-5 bulb the same wattage and size as a MH, such would not be true.

 

[butter]

How is stating proof on what companies are doing to maximize lighting efficiency annoying? The point of this post is to help people understand lighting, you guys are trying to ruin this thread by flaming, it wouldn't be so bad if your idea was right and you flamed, but Lumens is the standard, why don't you find 1 major lighting manufacturer that uses Par as a measurment tool and I will admit you are right. Until then you are misinforming people with this Par nonsense.

 

[baytran7]

I couldn't find anything for Par as a standard for lighting, I did find some articles on the web about people writing about Par and they were pretty technical, the only bad thing is some of them were recommending using the watts per gallon recommendation. When I saw that I left their page and went to find a better source, haven't found one yet. I agree with Butter that Par is NOT very valid because as butter said, my fishtank is only 30 inches high so how does penetration affect 30 inches? My water is crystal clear so I'd assume the light is penetrating well.

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by baytran7
I couldn't find anything for Par as a standard for lighting, I did find some articles on the web about people writing about Par and they were pretty technical, the only bad thing is some of them were recommending using the watts per gallon recommendation. When I saw that I left their page and went to find a better source, haven't found one yet. I agree with Butter that Par is NOT very valid because as butter said, my fishtank is only 30 inches high so how does penetration affect 30 inches? My water is crystal clear so I'd assume the light is penetrating well.
What you people are failing to comprehend is that the saltwater in your tank acts as a filter. It filters out alot of the useable light the deeper it goes.
For instance, my tank was very bright when I had 260 watt PCs over it, but I got very moderate coral growth in LPS.
With my MH, the tank is not as bright but I had to move my LPS and soft corals down near the bottom of the tank and they are growing like crazy.

 

[butter]

What does that has to do with saltwater? are you insane? I thought we're talking about Par, lumens, and efficiency. Penetration is not even in the freaking equation, our tank is too shallow. man, i don't know what you're on, but you must be working in the seaworld or something, because my fish tank aint that big.

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by butter
What does that has to do with saltwater? are you insane? I thought we're talking about Par, lumens, and efficiency. Penetration is not even in the freaking equation, our tank is too shallow. man, i don't know what you're on, but you must be working in the seaworld or something, because my fish tank aint that big.

Do you even know what PAR is?

 

[butter]

If you want me to teach you about Par then here:
PARPhotosynthetically Active Radiation measures light intensity over the visible spectrum (400 to 700 nm), which is somewhat different from lux that reports the intensity o those wavelengths to which the human eye is most sensitive (largely the green wavelengths.) It can be said that PAR is keyed to photosynthetic respons whereas lumens is keyed to human eye response......
Now you tell me how much Par you have on your fishtank and i'll tell you how many lumens I have in mine. Measure your Par before you get on a high horse and try to teach others. Truth is, YOU don't even know what your Par is. Let me know if there is anything else you want to learn today.

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by butter
If you want me to teach you about Par then here:
PARPhotosynthetically Active Radiation measures light intensity over the visible spectrum (400 to 700 nm), which is somewhat different from lux that reports the intensity o those wavelengths to which the human eye is most sensitive (largely the green wavelengths.) It can be said that PAR is keyed to photosynthetic respons whereas lumens is keyed to human eye response......
Now you tell me how much Par you have on your fishtank and i'll tell you how many lumens I have in mine. Measure your Par before you get on a high horse and try to teach others. Truth is, YOU don't even know what your Par is. Let me know if there is anything else you want to learn today.

Real smooth. I read the same thing in acrylic51s post earlier.

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by oceana
As stated above the Ge site and such studies are not using the bulbs we use in the hobby. The numbers are much different when used in our application.
You simply can not make a statement saying T5 Vs MH. It’s like saying my apple taste just like a grape. They just can’t be put up against each other.
Everyone talks about the power cost. But no one talks about the fact then when bulb replacement time come the t5 user is replacing several bulbs while the mh guy replaces one. The cost becomes very similar over the term of one year.
IE: I have lots of tanks. They are all plumbed together to make one large system. On some of the tank there are t5 and others having mh. The difference in color, growth and health is night and day. The MH wins by several hands. If it did not I would use T5. In order to speak about what is better and what is not I think it is important that HANDS ON research is done in a controlled study. Heck you can’t even use separate tanks because the make up of the tanks could be slightly different causing different results. That’s why systems like mine which are all made up of the same temp and same body of water work great for comparisons.
I have both I can afford what ever lighting system I want. I chose MH because it gives the highest quality results year after year. Once it does not or once something comes along that will prove to be better I will change. The only reason to choose t5 over mh is because the user has space or heat issues and simply can’t use mh.
In short MH is simply better BUT not always best for all applications. They both have there place but you can NOT compare the two. If there is any local person that would like to swap some corals and see whom ends up with more growth and color feel free to let me know. PS: I have done this before and both people that did it now own MH.
As for the WPG thing being dumb that’s very true and I think you will find that the only people really using that are new to the hobby and have not figured that out yet.

.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by baytran7
I couldn't find anything for Par as a standard for lighting, I did find some articles on the web about people writing about Par and they were pretty technical, the only bad thing is some of them were recommending using the watts per gallon recommendation. When I saw that I left their page and went to find a better source, haven't found one yet. I agree with Butter that Par is NOT very valid because as butter said, my fishtank is only 30 inches high so how does penetration affect 30 inches? My water is crystal clear so I'd assume the light is penetrating well.
From what I understand there is actually considerable loss in penetration at 30 inches.
You say your water is crystal clear, but that is only to the human eye. Think about how much filthy junk your skimmer pulls out. That stuff is coming from the water column. Most likely you couldn't even see it originally. When you concentrate it into a small area that your eyes can see (like the skimmer cup) it's pretty obvious to human eye's how that kind of stuff could reduce penetration.

 

[ibew]

here is some good info not pertaining to this subject alot of us here have big fish tanks so if you have one or want to purchase one just think about alittle on how much equipment it takes to run it now depending on what amp panel you have or what circuit that equipment is on or what else is on that circuit can have an impact on how it performs and how long it lasts to find out all you have to do is find the panal in your house nd flip some breakers till that circuit goes out might consider doing that to all and make up a panal schedule just for good info incase you every have any electrical problems its good to know and can cut down some trobleshooting time but anyhow find someone that hase a clampover style meter I perfer them cause there very easy to use just have to set it to what you want to read and just clamp over the wire and it tells you and (good manufacturer is fluke) that will tell you what your drawing from a specfic circuit and also you can meter out the phases coming into the house to see if you have a balanced load its not uncommon to have alittle unbalanced load so dont worry but if the load is severly unbalanced then you can easly damage electrical components or possible cause a fire

 

[baytran7]

Originally Posted by hagfish
From what I understand there is actually considerable loss in penetration at 30 inches.
You say your water is crystal clear, but that is only to the human eye. Think about how much filthy junk your skimmer pulls out. That stuff is coming from the water column. Most likely you couldn't even see it originally. When you concentrate it into a small area that your eyes can see (like the skimmer cup) it's pretty obvious to human eye's how that kind of stuff could reduce penetration.

As I have said before, don't waste my time with unproven statements. SHOW me that you lose light from crystal clear water. Everyone can sound smart by using jiberish words, I want

[hr]
evidence that there is light lost. If you are so straight on Par, then show me your par readings.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by taznut
by googling it mine looks like an LED... it is 2 bulbs... each has 2 tubes one of which is white the other blue... it is a coralife brand and it gets preaty warm... it has 2 cords that i plug in and 2 switches... i have it on a timer... 12 hours on 12 off... is this ok??? i have a sabae clown and anemone, a fox coral (i think), a chocolate star, a blue and yellow damsel...
naw, it is not an LED bulb. probably a 2X65 watt PC coralife unite liek the satalites (they come with LED moonlights however). 30"long bulbs
Sean (acrylic51): to tell you the truth, im not sure how the ARO is as far as PAR and growth. i got it in a retrofit kit even though i dont have my canopy yet. im still building it. but i got it anways because who can pass up a wired ARO ballast, socket, and spider reflector, as well as a 6 month old 15000K XM for 70 bucks?!!! i know the bulb will need to be replaced, but im going to run it for a little bit anyways to aclimate form my 150 watt HQI.
baytran7: show us that you DONT loose light at 30 inches....i can tell you right now, not form use of a PAR meter, but from what my corals tell me, just in my small 16" tall 40 breeder there is an obvious difference from the top to the bottom. ill get an sps frag and put it to the top in my frag tray, and after it has grown a little ill move it as little as 8"s down and there is an OBVIOUS difference in both growth and color even if they are in the same flow area. i find the same thing when i make a frag and move it up to the tray which is about 2-3"s under the surface all the way on the side. what lights are you running now? try this: move your lights up a few inches and move ALL your corals, anenomes, clams, ect to the way way bottom of the tank. PS: if you have a SUPER white sand bed, the reflected light can actualy cause there to be a higher PAR about 1" off the sand bed than a few inches up..but this is completly irrelevent because going from the way top to 30"s down will completly nuke any light demanding corals you have)

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by fishieness
naw, it is not an LED bulb. probably a 2X65 watt PC coralife unite liek the satalites (they come with LED moonlights however). 30"long bulbs
Sean (acrylic51): to tell you the truth, im not sure how the ARO is as far as PAR and growth. i got it in a retrofit kit even though i dont have my canopy yet. im still building it. but i got it anways because who can pass up a wired ARO ballast, socket, and spider reflector, as well as a 6 month old 15000K XM for 70 bucks?!!! i know the bulb will need to be replaced, but im going to run it for a little bit anyways to aclimate form my 150 watt HQI.
baytran7: show us that you DONT loose light at 30 inches....i can tell you right now, not form use of a PAR meter, but from what my corals tell me, just in my small 16" tall 40 breeder there is an obvious difference from the top to the bottom. ill get an sps frag and put it to the top in my frag tray, and after it has grown a little ill move it as little as 8"s down and there is an OBVIOUS difference in both growth and color even if they are in the same flow area. i find the same thing when i make a frag and move it up to the tray which is about 2-3"s under the surface all the way on the side. what lights are you running now? try this: move your lights up a few inches and move ALL your corals, anenomes, clams, ect to the way way bottom of the tank. PS: if you have a SUPER white sand bed, the reflected light can actualy cause there to be a higher PAR about 1" off the sand bed than a few inches up..but this is completly irrelevent because going from the way top to 30"s down will completly nuke any light demanding corals you have)

Finally some backup.
I can't believe that anyone could believe that the intensity of their lights is the same 30" under water as it is at the surface.

 

[baytran7]

Originally Posted by fishieness
naw, it is not an LED bulb. probably a 2X65 watt PC coralife unite liek the satalites (they come with LED moonlights however). 30"long bulbs
Sean (acrylic51): to tell you the truth, im not sure how the ARO is as far as PAR and growth. i got it in a retrofit kit even though i dont have my canopy yet. im still building it. but i got it anways because who can pass up a wired ARO ballast, socket, and spider reflector, as well as a 6 month old 15000K XM for 70 bucks?!!! i know the bulb will need to be replaced, but im going to run it for a little bit anyways to aclimate form my 150 watt HQI.
baytran7: show us that you DONT loose light at 30 inches....i can tell you right now, not form use of a PAR meter, but from what my corals tell me, just in my small 16" tall 40 breeder there is an obvious difference from the top to the bottom. ill get an sps frag and put it to the top in my frag tray, and after it has grown a little ill move it as little as 8"s down and there is an OBVIOUS difference in both growth and color even if they are in the same flow area. i find the same thing when i make a frag and move it up to the tray which is about 2-3"s under the surface all the way on the side. what lights are you running now? try this: move your lights up a few inches and move ALL your corals, anenomes, clams, ect to the way way bottom of the tank. PS: if you have a SUPER white sand bed, the reflected light can actualy cause there to be a higher PAR about 1" off the sand bed than a few inches up..but this is completly irrelevent because going from the way top to 30"s down will completly nuke any light demanding corals you have)
Another poster that has no concrete data. Just more jiberish.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by baytran7
Another poster that has no concrete data. Just more jiberish.
you think im giving you jibberish? how can you possibly fail to see that you are giving all of us jibberish? all you say is that light can penetrate 30"s no problem.... you yourself do not have any data, so why are you trying to put down others who do not have any numbers either? I go by what my corals are telling me.... you arent even doing that.
plus it makes sence chemically that light does loose power as it goes deeper..... light is nothing more than a photon of energy as an electron jumps to a higher orbital and then back down. the energy it releases comes off as light. energy cannot be created or destroyed. so where does the energy keep suddenly appearing from to make up for the energy used to produce the light in the first place? and to have it suddenly appear in the exact amount to prevent it form seeming that it doesnt penetrate. you are confusing lumens with PAR i think as the first half of this thread had. Just because you dont SEE a difference in brightness, doesnt mean that there is no difference in PAR. They are completly different.

 

[reefeel]

Originally Posted by baytran7
Another poster that has no concrete data. Just more jiberish.
I can easily see the difference in lighting at the top of my tank 30in versus the bottom with fluorescents, my metal halidespierces down to the bottom, my flourescents don't come even close. I have a good example of how lighting works in nature from Reef Aquarium vol 3. The sky acts like fluoresents providing overall lighting while the sun is like metal halides providing a source of consentrated light to pierce down into the depths of the ocean.

 

[reefeel]

Originally Posted by fishieness
you think im giving you jibberish? how can you possibly fail to see that you are giving all of us jibberish? all you say is that light can penetrate 30"s no problem.... you yourself do not have any data, so why are you trying to put down others who do not have any numbers either? I go by what my corals are telling me.... you arent even doing that.
plus it makes sence chemically that light does loose power as it goes deeper..... light is nothing more than a photon of energy as an electron jumps to a higher orbital and then back down. the energy it releases comes off as light. energy cannot be created or destroyed. so where does the energy keep suddenly appearing from to make up for the energy used to produce the light in the first place? and to have it suddenly appear in the exact amount to prevent it form seeming that it doesnt penetrate. you are confusing lumens with PAR i think as the first half of this thread had. Just because you dont SEE a difference in brightness, doesnt mean that there is no difference in PAR. They are completly different.
Good Chemistry knowledge, most people would not know this or understand it

. As light goes through water it gets "filtered out" the first to go are the reds, yellows, and oranges. Most of the light that actually reaches the corals are maybe green but mostly blues and violet. The begining of the electomagnetic spectrum is filtered out because they don't have enough energy to go any farther. If you want I can explain with equations and such.

 

[oceana]

Do you all realize that you are arguing with a guy that clearly has taken a defensive stance? Saying something like the light is the same on the top of the tank as it is on the bottom is simply enough for me to realize he is now using anger to steer his post and not logic. Due to this fact this will go no place and IMO it is time to let this one die. Simply agree to disagree