think the death penalty is ever appropriate for animal cruelty?

[1journeyman]

Of course, the other issue is what is the definition of "Animal Cruelty"?
The Dog Pound in Dallas considers declawing a cat as "cruel" and won't let you adopt a cat without agreeing not to do this (apparently putting a cat to sleep is more "humane" than adopting it out

) PETA considers eating meat animal cruelty... Many folks consider keeping fish in inappropriate size tanks cruelty. Clubbing baby seals for their fur certainly seems like animal cruelty to me

Too many grey lines. I think whoever is responsible is a monster, but the death penalty? Not until we address our own issues. A rich football player supporting a Dog Fighting Ring deserves far worse punishment than a group of poor fishermen trying to kill the animal competition.
I know a lot of deer hunters who shoot predators that kill deer. I know a lot of ranchers who kill coyotes and bobcats for preying on their sheep. Several wolves (endangered species) have been shot in Wyoming by ranchers afraid the re-introduction of wolves will hurt their cattle herds. Do they deserve the death penalty?
(I suspect it was a group of fishermen.)

 

[nicetry]

In protected areas of Africa where white rhinos and lowland gorillas have long been victims of poachers, the game wardens are allowed to shoot/kill the poachers.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2451036
A rich football player supporting a Dog Fighting Ring deserves far worse punishment than a group of poor fishermen trying to kill the animal competition.
)
the seals have no choice but to eat fish to survive. if these "poor fishermen" can't come up with something to outsmart a barely mobile animal other than smashing it in the head, then they should go to a profession for which they are better suited. like digging ditches.
the only "gray areas" concerning animal cruelty is if you take common sense out of the equation. humans eat meat, and most likely always have from the time that we were humans. that's not animal cruelty. but if I went to a farm and killed 53 cows just for the sake of killing them, that WOULD be animal cruelty.

 

[kidreef]

well if the death penatly happens petcos screwed

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2451815
the seals have no choice but to eat fish to survive. if these "poor fishermen" can't come up with something to outsmart a barely mobile animal other than smashing it in the head, then they should go to a profession for which they are better suited. like digging ditches.
the only "gray areas" concerning animal cruelty is if you take common sense out of the equation. humans eat meat, and most likely always have from the time that we were humans. that's not animal cruelty. but if I went to a farm and killed 53 cows just for the sake of killing them, that WOULD be animal cruelty.
Make no mistake, I'm not excusing the fishermen. I suspect overfishing and improper fishing cause far more damage than seals (who are actually very efficient predators in the water).
But what about the other examples I listed? Deer hunters shooting coyotes. Ranchers baiting and killing wolves and coyotes. They certainly don't eat either.
What about the kids who take a .22 into the woods and shoot raccoons or opossums? (I live near a small town where HS kids do this kind of thing a lot)

 

[wattsupdoc]

I shoot coyotes and bobcats for fur and fun. It's a great time.

There are other reasons for it, wich justify doing it, but mainly it's a great time. You gonna kill me for it?

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2452327
I shoot coyotes and bobcats for fur and fun. It's a great time.

There are other reasons for it, wich justify doing it, but mainly it's a great time. You gonna kill me for it?

I don't know if I'd say kill you, but if you're killing wild animals "just for fun", I'd say you're definitely an anti-social deviant which probably stems from relationship problems with women.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2452163
But what about the other examples I listed? Deer hunters shooting coyotes. Ranchers baiting and killing wolves and coyotes. They certainly don't eat either.
What about the kids who take a .22 into the woods and shoot raccoons or opossums? (I live near a small town where HS kids do this kind of thing a lot)
differences. most people who hunt actually eat or use the animals that they kill. and aside from hunting for food, deer hunting also controls the deer population.
as for the coyote thing, difference again. for one, you own the land and have taken precautions to protect the animals, which you own. these animals are most likely not the coyote's natural prey, just easy pickings. but even then, you try to kill the coyote that's doing the killing or in the immediate area, not going off and killing 53 coyotes at a pop. if you did, that would be overkill. with the sea lion situation, the fish are the sea lions natural food. the humans don't even occur there naturally, much less compete for the fish naturally. so the logic that it should be able to kill 53 sea lions at a time is ludicrous. I think they should suspend all fishing there until the culprits surrender or are turned in.

 

[05xrunner]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2452327
I shoot coyotes and bobcats for fur and fun. It's a great time.

There are other reasons for it, wich justify doing it, but mainly it's a great time. You gonna kill me for it?

your retarded, Rather not say anything else so I dont get in trouble.
I think the Death penalty should be enforced MORE...maybe not for this but OVERALL when people murder. Dont give life sentence or anything. They killed someone. they die as well.
I think its to easy to get off a crime someone does in this country. Then when they get out and go do it again what kinda justice is that.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2452597
differences. most people who hunt actually eat or use the animals that they kill. and aside from hunting for food, deer hunting also controls the deer population.
as for the coyote thing, difference again. for one, you own the land and have taken precautions to protect the animals, which you own. these animals are most likely not the coyote's natural prey, just easy pickings. but even then, you try to kill the coyote that's doing the killing or in the immediate area, not going off and killing 53 coyotes at a pop. if you did, that would be overkill. with the sea lion situation, the fish are the sea lions natural food. the humans don't even occur there naturally, much less compete for the fish naturally. so the logic that it should be able to kill 53 sea lions at a time is ludicrous. I think they should suspend all fishing there until the culprits surrender or are turned in.
Pontius, you're making a distinction that isn't there.
Many deer hunters I know shoot coyotes on site. This is exactly like the Sea Lion incident. THey will shoot or bait the coyote and leave the body to rot in the field. Every one that they see. Not 53 at a time, only because coyote population densities aren't that high. It's exactly the same thing.
I doubt fishing around the Galapogas Islands is legal right now anyway. The fishermen come from the mainland, where they have been fishing for hundreds of years.
My point is; What one person considers animal cruelty would be shrugged off by another person. Don't get me wrong; I think it's hideous. If it were up to me natural predators would all be protected species. The idea that man can better balance prey species than nature is absurd to me

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2452629
Pontius, you're making a distinction that isn't there.
Many deer hunters I know shoot coyotes on site. This is exactly like the Sea Lion incident. THey will shoot or bait the coyote and leave the body to rot in the field. Every one that they see. Not 53 at a time, only because coyote population densities aren't that high. It's exactly the same thing.
I doubt fishing around the Galapogas Islands is legal right now anyway. The fishermen come from the mainland, where they have been fishing for hundreds of years.
My point is; What one person considers animal cruelty would be shrugged off by another person. Don't get me wrong; I think it's hideous. If it were up to me natural predators would all be protected species. The idea that man can better balance prey species than nature is absurd to me

like I said in an early post, the only "gray area" exists if you choose to take common sense out of it. equating killing a single coyote who is hunting your livestock that you raised to killing 53 sea lions for eating fish that you have no natural right to is removing the "common sense" that I've referred to. for me, there's no parallel between the two because I kept common sense in the equation.

 

[aquaknight]

Your also omitting the "vitriolic" nature of one vs. the other. Being shot by a skilled hunter or being clubbed in the head by a fisherman, I'd know which one I'd take. Anyone can shoot a gun, but it takes someone special to club a seal.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2452592
I don't know if I'd say kill you, but if you're killing wild animals "just for fun", I'd say you're definitely an anti-social deviant which probably stems from relationship problems with women.
Soooo, lets see. what exact social group is it that am deviant of? Yours?... Mr. lets execute people who kill animals. Oh that's a real human attitude, and intelligent too!The problem with most people today, as well as radical social groups like pita, is no one looks at something for what it is anymore. Politicians, press and society devise and distribute rhetoric which is readily subscribed to by the individual. Without looking into the situation more, society as a general is lazy and has become the puppet of the press. You yourself pontius are one of these. My case in point.
Have you ever had your child while playing outside, to be stalked by a coyote? Well, mine wasn't stalked so much as was just being heavily eyed. At 5 y.o. this would be a great meal for 4 or 5 of these hungry bast@#$s. Coyotes are great at adapting, just because you don't live in an rural area, doesn't mean you don't have them as neighbors. They adapt to all situations. While usually humans are not on the menu for these predators, adaptation can certainly place us there. Coyotes are opportunistic feeders and will take an easy meal if it presents itself. Now, my states conservation department allows open season on these nearly year round? I wonder why that is? Could it be because the C.D. are social deviants????Must be, and the women who work there have also had problems with relationships with women..Man has been hunting and killing these predators for thousands of years, we have also caught them and bred them to be our friends. We are BTW on the TOP of the chain still. No where inn my post did I say that I went out and blindly killed animals, enjoying their death did I? What i stated was that I kill these for fur and fun. Occasionally one or two of my buddies and I will get together and go predator hunting. We have a great time, moving from set up to set up, calling varmits in, socializing with one another , just a great overall time. It's not like deer hunting at all. We have a lot of fun. The taking of the life of any animal is not the fun part. That always is a little hard to take if you think about it. Much more so if the animal is not taken swiftly. Which is part of the hunt. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any hunter who takes enjoyment from not making a swift kill. We all hate it. I also enjoy the fact that by doing this, I am doing a bit of service to my community. Yes, pontius, helping you, who will not help yourself.
Now, bobcats are much more difficult to hunt which makes for a exceptional day when you actually get one. But like coyotes, raccoons, deer, and fox, the population needs to be kept in check. Having one dodge out in front of your car or worse yet motorcycle can be lethal. Especially if you do the" human" thing and try to dodge it. My conservation department sets the regulations for taking of animals, as long as I follow those regulations I am being socially responsible. Possibly saving a life or two in the process. Yes it is fun.
Originally Posted by 05xrunner
http:///forum/post/2452598
your retarded, Rather not say anything else so I dont get in trouble.
Which one of us is displaying an uneducated attitude, full of negativity here?

 

[ino]

*sigh* you people are splitting hairs here.
Wattsupdoc, I don't agree with your outlook, but I do agree with the fact that sometimes we must put our safety first. Not to be mean, but if we're not here, who's going to be "humane"?
Honestly, I believe I don't know all the facts. It was likely, as journeyman said, fishermen trying to make a living. It doesn't make it any less horrible, though. Do I think they should die? Yes, as I've already said. But this stems more from several different beliefs I hold.
I am a vegetarian, not because I think animals have inalienable rights, but because I wish to be kind to the creatures over which I stand. They deserve a loving leader, just and righteous... and I try to come as close as I can. Many of my friends, family, and acquantances hunt. I do not chastise them because they use what they kill (most of them, anyways). However, to kill simply for fun... it is atrocious. An abomination of the human race. We cannot claim to be kind and "highly evolved," or "civilized" and go out every weekend shooting, stabbing, or clubbing animals just for the fun of it. You can't have it both ways. I chose the way that I believe is right- the way of kindness.... And anyone who doesn't agree, I shall kill! Hahahaha

 

[ino]

Wait... my last post reminded me of something.... err... what was it? It's on the tip of my tongue...
Crusades? Iunno...

 

[fishycpa]

Originally Posted by Ino
http:///forum/post/2452913
...They deserve a loving leader, just and righteous...
So you think that wild animals respect righteousness and being just and are looking for a "loving leader"? No, this is why they are wild animals and we are the humans.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Ino
http:///forum/post/2452913
*sigh* you people are splitting hairs here.
Wattsupdoc, I don't agree with your outlook, but I do agree with the fact that sometimes we must put our safety first. Not to be mean, but if we're not here, who's going to be "humane"?
Honestly, I believe I don't know all the facts. It was likely, as journeyman said, fishermen trying to make a living. It doesn't make it any less horrible, though. Do I think they should die? Yes, as I've already said. But this stems more from several different beliefs I hold.
I am a vegetarian, not because I think animals have inalienable rights, but because I wish to be kind to the creatures over which I stand. They deserve a loving leader, just and righteous... and I try to come as close as I can. Many of my friends, family, and acquantances hunt. I do not chastise them because they use what they kill (most of them, anyways). However, to kill simply for fun... it is atrocious. An abomination of the human race. We cannot claim to be kind and "highly evolved," or "civilized" and go out every weekend shooting, stabbing, or clubbing animals just for the fun of it. You can't have it both ways. I chose the way that I believe is right- the way of kindness.... And anyone who doesn't agree, I shall kill! Hahahaha

If the actual killing were the part that were fun, then that would be wrong. But that is not the case, most people who do not believe or participate in hunting cannot see the difference. The actual part of taking the life is not fun, nor did I say" I like to take animals lives" I said, I kill them for fun. Maybe that's not a clear distinction between the 2 statements, but it's not the actual killing that most hunters enjoy. You see, most of us hunters don't think, yeah I KILLED that dear. And relish in the thought of having taken it's life. It's more of an accomplishment that we fulfilled our goal. participated in an activity, and got out and enjoyed mother nature. Maming an animal, wounding it and noty making a quick end for it is seen as inhumane and most hunters try to always avoid doing so. Exactly how do you "lead" a coyote? Does a starving coyote care if your child's parent is kind and righteous, no!. How has nature ever been a kind thing? I suppose under your logic, lions should stop eating gazelles. As well as the mouse I killed this morning should have been allowed to remain in my home. HMMMMM The plague comes to mind there.....Mice killing humans? You say that stabbing, clubbing, and shooting animals every weekend is wrong. I never said I did that. There are in fact humane ways of taking an animals life. Nature doesn't always participate in this. Your child if attacked would suffer a horrible demise. I personally find your perception quite hypocritical. Kind and righteous, yet kill those who disagree.....
>I do not agree with the clubbing of 53 seals for no apparent reason. But I don't believe that clubbing those that did this in the head is a solution. That approach is uneducated and asinine. Stiff penalties, definitely, but to say that capital punishment is in order??? I mean come on. The information regarding the circumstances around this event are not yet known. But we jump on the wagon declaring animal cruelty. Probably were fisherman who over fished the area to begin with. but maybe the seals attacked first???

Well, we know that didn't happen, but my point is, jump on the rhetorical bandwagon and you cannot make a educated and JUST decision. Spin the hype, and you yourself may be the cause of an injustice.
Originally Posted by Ino
http:///forum/post/2452916
Wait... my last post reminded me of something.... err... what was it? It's on the tip of my tongue...
Crusades? Iunno...

WHAT???

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2452795
like I said in an early post, the only "gray area" exists if you choose to take common sense out of it. equating killing a single coyote who is hunting your livestock that you raised to killing 53 sea lions for eating fish that you have no natural right to is removing the "common sense" that I've referred to. for me, there's no parallel between the two because I kept common sense in the equation.
I'm not talking about livestock.
Many deer hunters believe coyotes and other predators run off "their" deer, so they KOS any predator they see. Take the ranchers I spoke of earlier out of the equation. Many of the deer leases in Texas don't keep livstock. These hunters are killing predators solely for the purpose of "protecting" the deer herds.
You can't base laws off of common sense, unfortunately. Too many people seem to be born without it.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2452999
I'm not talking about livestock.
Many deer hunters believe coyotes and other predators run off "their" deer, so they KOS any predator they see. Take the ranchers I spoke of earlier out of the equation. Many of the deer leases in Texas don't keep livstock. These hunters are killing predators solely for the purpose of "protecting" the deer herds.
You can't base laws off of common sense, unfortunately. Too many people seem to be born without it.
I'm not a hunter, but that sounds pretty dumb to me. deer have extremely sensitive senses, so I think having the rotting corpse of a predator around would have the exact opposite effect. I think THAT would run the deer off.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2452837
Soooo, lets see. what exact social group is it that am deviant of? Yours?... Mr. lets execute people who kill animals. Oh that's a real human attitude, and intelligent too!The problem with most people today, as well as radical social groups like pita, is no one looks at something for what it is anymore. Politicians, press and society devise and distribute rhetoric which is readily subscribed to by the individual. Without looking into the situation more, society as a general is lazy and has become the puppet of the press. You yourself pontius are one of these. My case in point.

I ignored most of your post because it is just silly. but just to respond to the above quote, you said yourself that you enjoy killing wild animals just for the sake of killing. so THAT makes you a deviant in pretty much any social group in this country. and who said anything about PETA?? I eat meat, I fish, etc etc. but if you don't see the problem with killing 53 sea lions for no good reason, you really are a deviant. I don't think you have to be a militant animal lover to see that this kind of massacre is wrong.